[Callista]

I know (IRL) a couple of dozen people with various kinds of autism, spread around the spectrum pretty evenly (though I don't know anyone who's fully non-verbal except over the Internet). They're about two-thirds guys, and the rest girls; and I've been noticing some gender differences.

Girls tend to be better with language and communication; their speech tends to be more fluid and uses tone of voice better. (But there's one musically gifted guy whose speech is almost indistinguishable from normal; he's classic autistic, and the best of all of us at talking. Just goes to show that speech delays don't mean everything. I highly suspect he's hearing tone of voice like he listens to music; because that's what I do, and how I learned to follow the patterns.)

When they're utterly stressed, guys tend to be more physically expressive. I've heard them talk about yelling, stomping, even punching things. Girls tend to shut down, cry, lose the ability to speak, etc., and have meltdowns with a lot less physical energy than the guys.

Girls tend to get married earlier. I've met a lot more home-makers than careerwomen (but I know one who is a highly skilled research scientist); girls move out a little earlier, but guys tend to be more independent when they do move out (most of the girls I know transitioned to roommates, college dorms, or assisted living places before they managed independence; guys went at it with a more sink-or-swim approach). They have jobs in everything from landscape work to engineering. About half the autistics I know are living independently without financial assistance; the other half are on disability or living with parents.

Girls tend to be asexual more often than guys; but I've met equal numbers gay/lesbian autistics (and more than typical; it seems to be closer to 20% non-heterosexual).

At first I thought I might be seeing some essential difference between male autistics and female autistics. But eventually I looked at them more closely and checked my knowledge about sociology; and it started looking like it didn't have to do with autism directly--but with how society and its gender norms responds to autistic people.

Think about the way they respond to females who are depdent, versus males who are dependent... about the social expectations on a married man versus a married woman... about the way men aren't supposed to cry, but women can; and how women talk and are expected to talk more.

This is probably some kind of complex nature/nurture equation--what we expect of different genders; what roles we expect people to take, and what we find unacceptable or acceptable in the different genders. And it affects autistic people, too, however little we actually pick up social norms.

I wonder if this mightn't be part of the reason for the severe under-diagnosis of female autistics. We may consider some of the less obvious autistic traits to be more "normal" in girls, and not realize she needs help unless she turns out unable to speak (and speech is often a strength with girls, at least by a few percentiles)...

I wish I knew more than two dozen. It would be easier to see the patterns amidst all the random variance.

What are your observations? Do male and female autistics get treated differently? Do you think your gender affected your diagnosis and the therapy/accommodations you have access to?

[shichi]

I'll answer the last question first - yes, my gender did affect my attempt at discussing the possibility of ASD with my last psychiatrist. While my psychologist thinks ASD is highly likely in my case [and she makes frequent references to it during our sessions], here she can't officially diagnose me; only a psychiatrist can. Anyways, my old psychiatrist rejected the possibility completely out of hand mainly because I'm female and, in his opinion, it's "unlikely" for females to have ASD.

When I tried to discuss some of my traits [that have persisted since childhood] with him so he could have a better picture of what is happening with me, he just thought I was/am an obsessive person.

However, I'm more likely to trust my psychologist more than my old psychiatrist, simply because my psychologist did take the time to listen to what I had to say.

As for gender differences between males and females...personally I haven't noticed much differences. What I have noticed is that ASD is truly a "spectrum" disorder and individuals are impacted differently by their symptoms.

[birdcrazy]

Originally Posted by shichi

I'll answer the last question first - yes, my gender did affect my attempt at discussing the possibility of ASD with my last psychiatrist. While my psychologist thinks ASD is highly likely in my case [and she makes frequent references to it during our sessions], here she can't officially diagnose me; only a psychiatrist can. Anyways, my old psychiatrist rejected the possibility completely out of hand mainly because I'm female and, in his opinion, it's "unlikely" for females to have ASD.

When I tried to discuss some of my traits [that have persisted since childhood] with him so he could have a better picture of what is happening with me, he just thought I was/am an obsessive person.

However, I'm more likely to trust my psychologist more than my old psychiatrist, simply because my psychologist did take the time to listen to what I had to say.

As for gender differences between males and females...personally I haven't noticed much differences. What I have noticed is that ASD is truly a "spectrum" disorder and individuals are impacted differently by their symptoms.

I looked at your profile shichi, you are probably kinda similar to me, since I am also dxed with Schizoaffective right now. In fact, my therapist (he's a developmental psychologist that works mostly with children) says I have Asperger's but my Psychatrist hasn't followed suit also. My psychatrist basically said that Asperger's was too overdiagnosed, and that my eye contact was too good. My threapist I've been talking to for almost three years now says for sure that I have some serious social cues problems, and a letter from my relatives didn't hurt, I didn't tell them what to say, but they mentioned lack of social skills and my tendency not to care about much unless it highly interests me.

Anyway, here is a website that says it has a list of Female AS characteristics and differences between male and female, though it is up to you to figure out how accurate it is: http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_..._a58d4f6a.html

[shichi]

Thanks for the link, that was an interesting read. Although I'll be honest and say some of it was a bit nebulous [like "dressing comfortably" - huh?] :P

Just a bit OT, but I guess another difficulty with getting an official confirmation of ASD is that sometimes there's the ability to learn compensatory social skills and the like. It makes diagnosing hard, and it's doubly harder when there's another complicating issue like sza. I have managed to learn social skills on my lonesome but it took a lot of trial and error on my part [emphasis on error], and lots of my behaviours towards other people are just things I've aped from observation or what I've noted is the social norm.

I wish there was a place around my area where they could do adult ASD DXs but unfortunately everyone here does children only. Guess I'll just have to go along with what I have so far!

Autism

Autism is part of a group of disorders called autism spectrum disorders (ASDs), also known as pervasive developmental disorders. ASDs range in severity, with autism being the most debilitating form while other disorders, such as Asperger syndrome, produce milder symptoms.

• Estimating the prevalence of autism is difficult and controversial due to differences in the ways that cases are identified and defined, differences in study methods, and changes in diagnostic criteria. A recent study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported the prevalence of autism among 8 year-olds to be about 1 in 110.16
• Autism and other ASDs develop in childhood and generally are diagnosed by age three.17
• Autism is about four times more common in boys than girls. Girls with the disorder, however, tend to have more severe symptoms and greater cognitive impairment.16,1

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/05/ma...pagewanted=all

[Vibe]

Well, I only know a couple of people on the autistic spectrum, but most are family members and I've lived with one all my life (my sister). I'd say she fits to a decent degree into your description. She tends to be somewhat monotone unless speaking emphatically about something, and although she speaks very well; she still stutters a bit, uses a lot of 'um's', and tends to lose her ability to put together a cohesive sentence when under pressure.

Personality-wise, she can be funny but still very abrasive. She's never had a boyfriend or shown much interest in men (although I can tell she's somewhat interested in the idea). She's also very unforgiving and highly critical of others - a major perfectionist who wants to do it all and will hold a grudge for years. Heh, to some degree she identifies with reptiles. She doesn't show much emotion, although she will laugh when playing with us, and I've seen her cry without actually making noise before. She really tends to pull back when feeling negative.

Right now she's in college going for a physics degree, and is doing very well. She has a major urge to be independent, but at the same time can be very demanding of others when she needs something. She has trouble considering others' feelings. We've also noticed some real obsessive-compulsive tendencies, and a lot of things need to be 'just so' or she gets upset (not expressively, but we still know and she doesn't let us live it down).

My cousin, on the other hand, is a male with Aspergers. He almost refuses to go out into social situations, but the few times I have seen him out, he has been very expressive and seemed to do quite well in certain respects. He often looked actively excited. The problem was that he seemed to have no sense of social etiquette. A lot of the things he was emphatically expressing were strange concepts and the fervor in which he proclaimed them would likely seem off-putting to others. His mother is agoraphobic, so that probably doesn't help his ability to get out and socialize. Last time we went to visit, he had to sit in the car for almost an hour before he got up the nerve to come into the family reunion and see us.

Also, this is probably partially the difference between autism and aspergers, but I noticed the difference in their personalities as small children. As a young child, my sister didn't speak or even make eye contact. She often withdrew. My cousin, on the other hand, was actively involved and playing with us as a toddler. So I can definitely see the males as being more expressive.

Oh, my boyfriend also has a cousin with autism (although much lower functioning). His cousin was very interactive as well, but would throw tantrums and hurt people when frustrated/upset. Unfortunately, he barely speaks and they are having a difficult time working with him since he's now almost full grown and pretty strong.

[lonegael]

Byz, some of the cases I have seen with women who have Aspbergers or Autism , the language skills and the expressiveness mask the disorder and the level of severity that the women might actually have. Boys tend to be less verbal, and perhaps it is therefore they show the more extreme behavioural problems at a lesser degree of syndrom severity. For a girl to show the traditional autistic/aspberer traits to the same extent as a boy, she really has be be affected.
Estrogen is a powerful spurr to development in linguistic areas, and it is probably this which makes it hard to catch the girls with AS. There is more of a chance that a girl with the disorder would,, because of this , not show the same linguistic difficulties that a boy, with less estrogen in his developmental history, would have.

[unico]

I think there are some more common ways males express autism and some more common ways that females express autism, but I've known autistic females who meet the male stereotypes. I tend to match more of the female stereotypes, though I was very distant from people as a child and barely talked (I'm diagnosed with autism).

[purple_fins]

I have an autistic brother who managed to get married-- but is now divorced. He's been working full time at menial(sp?) jobs(almost didn't get through high school, was held back a year) all his adult life-- 30+years. He is not aggressive but took up alcohol by age 18 to cope with the stresses of keeping up with life.

I also have an autistic niece, she is unable to function at all in the work place. She does talk A LOT.. but then so does my brother. My niece struggled to finish high school as well and is now living with her parents-- my sister and her husband. She has her routine, shows she MUST watch at certain times, take a shower at the same time every night, puts her brush in the same spot on her dresser... and such.

I don't really see that much difference between the two- brother and niece. He does work-- maybe like you said-- due to social pressure. My niece tried being a housekeeper at hotels but she couldn't keep up and ended up with bald spots on her head from pulling her hair out due to stress.

I wonder if the differences are more social than attributed to autism.... as men in general are more aggressive/physical and women are generally more verbal and perfectionistic.

on a side note--- Wow!! I can't even imagine an autistic managing college... I guess the ones I know are more severe than the ones most of you are talking about. That seems so so highly functional-- wow! I didn't know one was autistic if they could manage such high functioning.

regards to all
fins

[Callista]

Oh, I tried before--dropped out after ending up in the mental hospital. I'm now heavily supported by my current school's disability services office, who are used to helping people with every kind of disability imaginable, from the commonplace like deafness or dyslexia to the complex like someone with CP, hearing loss, and vision impairment... or me, with my autism. There are another couple dozen autistic students at my school, too. It's getting better and better for autistics in the universities; I know more than a few autistic college graduates. It's not generally school that's really tough for us; it's the social pressure and workplace politics we face afterward. I can only hope that by the time I graduate, I'll have learned enough to advocate for myself and fit myself into some specialized niche in the engineering field.

USA Today covered it--Autistic students get help navigating college

[purple_fins]

Originally Posted by Callista

Oh, I tried before--dropped out after ending up in the mental hospital. I'm now heavily supported by my current school's disability services office, who are used to helping people with every kind of disability imaginable, from the commonplace like deafness or dyslexia to the complex like someone with CP, hearing loss, and vision impairment... or me, with my autism. There are another couple dozen autistic students at my school, too. It's getting better and better for autistics in the universities; I know more than a few autistic college graduates. It's not generally school that's really tough for us; it's the social pressure and workplace politics we face afterward. I can only hope that by the time I graduate, I'll have learned enough to advocate for myself and fit myself into some specialized niche in the engineering field.

USA Today covered it--Autistic students get help navigating college

thank you for that article! it was so informative and helpful.

My brother and niece are too low on the autisim scale to go to college. but.....
I have more hope for my son now-- as he, we believe, is on the scale somewhere with aspergers. we are going to talk to a college counselor next week as he flunked out last year(and like you ended up in a mental hospital-- sorry you experienced similar) he was told to re-apply. he's just like the people in the article-- I'm so hopeful now! I sure hope there's a school around us that has such a program.

thanks again for sharing this and I wish you so so much luck with your schooling!

fins

[birdcrazy]

I somehow got through college without any support and got a 3.3 out of 4. But I could have done better with support. I refused it, I was deemed emotionally disabled as a kid and I decided not to consider myself disabled as an adult.

But I probably should change my concerns in my profile, it seems I am not going to get diagnosed with Asperger's or ADHD anytime soon.

[lonegael]

good job, Bird! My father-in-law, who as an adult would proably get diagnosed with Aspbergers but because of significant language dev. delay most likely had a form of autism, went through university, became a professor, and was married with 4 children. Now, how sucessful the family life was can be debated (my mother in law has her own issues, my husband basically raised his sibblings in terms of love and encouragement) but he did his job well and as long as social roles were clearly delineated, he could manage.
I have another friend, actually diagnosed as a child with high funtioning autism, who joined the marines, made it through taining, became a medic and and exlosives expert, and was honorably dischargged due to injuries he sustained in service. He might be called a bit "odd", but once he calms down around people, there is no real sign he has any troubles except for a certain social clumsiness and a nagging anxiety his time in the services hardly helped.

There are a lot of social functions that determine how we see males and females, and there are always exceptions. I was always catching it because i didn't fit the typical male/female behaviours as a child, and that was considered sick. If I were a boy, it would scarcely have been commented on. My marines friend would be considered to fit a lot of the "female" charateristics; he has developed into a very verbal, insightful and social person in that he likes to be around people and enjoys exchanging ideas. It's just a certain inflexibility that he shares with my late father-in-law when it comes to handling social situations that are not clear or scrippted that one notices the cracks. Huggs all!

[birdcrazy]

I don't even know what makes me mostly odd. I mean I thought all these years I was talking to people right... but then suddenly I start asking and started getting unpleasant answers, one relative says I do so much wrong, it's hard to explain. I have one relative trying to coach me into saying "How are you?" and general small talk skills, but it isn't working very well. That and my intense liking of Birds and Sonic could be autism..... but then there is the fact I have eye contact and can interpret faces.

My therapist thinks I have it, but I learned lots of faces and social cues, but still don't respond to them right, I dunno.

I don't even know exactly what my mental illness stuff is. I know it involves mood problems and to the extreme psychosis, but that's it.

I'm just one confused person.

[lonegael]

Ah, hon, just like the rest of us, you probably don't really fit into one category perfectly. Makes life tough, I know, but that's how we people are. HUGGSSS