[-jimi-]

Neuroscience Sheds Light on Why People with Asperger?s Syndrome Lack Empathy | Psych Central

Is it just me or does this article shout two things... aspies being without empathy and a pain to live with

and

NT's being JUST SO NEEDY

?

I mean of course the article only meant to say the first... but still... "us NT's need to change you because we need your empathy needy needy needy"... sigh. Selfish.

Anyway it pretty much looks down at all aspies, on any level of functioning. Because, well yea, we can't feel for people.

Or

is the truth more in lines with we can't SHOW exactly how we feel? Oh, it can't be! The we're not callous butts that need to change.

Only NT's can have "true" empathy. What elitist BS.

[Travelinglady]

The article does sound like it's sort of trying to put down aspies.

[rosska]

It really screams of "we need empathy, so you're broken until you feel/express it like we do". Who's to say we're not the way things need to be and they're the broken ones? Maybe something went majorly wrong with Human evolution and we're the cure, did they ever think of that?

//Not totally serious, but I just get tired of being made to feel like we're the one's who need "trained" to be like them.

[-jimi-]

It's OK, my initial post isn't uberly serious.

So let our minds wander!

I mean yea, I do suck at expressing how I feel about people or rather care. The article even diss caring! LOL. It's somehow lower than feeling!

But anyway. I do care. I have even been told I need to care less! Yea, I do suck at the occasional hug and saying "aww" and connect at that level. I am indeed the Sheldonian type that will instead bring you a hot beverage when you need comfort. But is that just bad? Or does it create a balance in the world? Some people being awwers and some people being tea bringers?

When I care or help I express myself actually doing something for the person. Sometimes people don't need a fixer, but well... sometimes they do! And then the awwers can aww while I actually help with the real problem.

Don't get me wrong, I don't diss NT empathy either. But maybe we just need both NT and aspie empathy in this world.

[rosska]

Haha well that's good.

Yes exactly, I do care for people. In fact sometimes I care so much that I get myself really depressed because I feel upset for my family or friends who are feeling down, but when it comes to trying to express that I hit walls on how to proceed. Sometimes when they speak about our lack of empathy they treat us like our 'stone faces' are how we feel inside, they don't seem to realise that we do get upset or hurt when we're spoken about in such a negative way.

[Hellion]

Do they ever stop to think about whether or not NTs empathize with people with aspergers? I think they might have some trouble there given their brains don't work they same...don't think it is a lack of empathy. I have empathy, sure I have trouble releating to people especially neurotypicals without mental health issues since I don't know what their experience is and cannot imagine how it would be to be like them. But I still have feelings about people, miss people, care about people though it can be hard to express all that in the way neurotypicals do.....doesn't mean its not there and I don't care.

And maybe instead of trying to train/teach us to at least act normal on the outside, perhaps they should put more effort into helping us function as well as we can as people with aspergers/autism with different strengths and weaknesses not people who need to be trained to be 'normal'.

Usually am aware of my feelings/thoughts unless I feel really numb, and am aware of other peoples though I may not be able to read that as well based on body language and such...Of course cannot say I understand everyone elses thoughts and feelings, but doubt everyone else understands mine.

Also seems like they made it a self fulfilling prophecy, since you have to express it properly for it to count as empathy actually never heard of that. And have also heard of many neurotypicals complaining because they might have been concerned about someone or trying to be empathetic but said the way wrong thing, or approached it wrong for that person so got a negative reaction...I thought having empathy and expressing it properly are two different things...though properly is subjective.

Also why should people with autism assume they are always wrong and family/doctors are always right and just go along with 'coaching' on how to seem more normal to people who cannot accept anything other than normal. How about families of autistic people and society at large accepts that we aren't neurotypical, aren't going to perfectly mimic neurotypicals and also are NOT obligated to.

And to the author of the Article NO NO NO I do not need coaching to be more 'neurotypical' and i do not need to accept I have 'zero degrees of empathy' as that is quite simply false and yeah facts hold a little more water in my book than some of the crap presented in the article. Do you bother actually listening to what people on the spectrum have to say about what goes on inside their head, or just keep making assumptions and backing it with pseudoscience. I doubt the person who wrote that is really going to be empathetic and come see how people who actually are on the spectrum feel about the article...but just in case.

Thought this was a support site, but I guess people with aspergers/auutism are supposed to be too stupid to catch the subtle...'people on the spectrum are inferior, with less brain capabilities and should be trained/coached to act more normal to stop annoying all the normal people' tone of the article.

Guess its just a support site for people off the spectrum with mental illness, and people who's lives are so horrible due to the existance of autistic people...

[snickie]

Remember, it is not empathy unless you respond appropriately to the other person.

This sentence is obnoxious. Who is to say what is and is not an appropriate response? (The NTs, of course.)

Okay, so the author of the article is using that phrase and the assumption that Aspies never respond appropriately to the other person to justify her statement that Aspies have zero degrees of empathy.

Looking at Dictionary.com's explanation of the difference between empathy and sympathy, it does sound a little bit like some of you arguing against the article are confusing the two.

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

What is the difference between empathy and sympathy?

Both empathy and sympathy are feelings concerning other people. Sympathy is literally 'feeling with' - compassion for or commiseration with another person. Empathy, by contrast, is literally 'feeling into' - the ability to project one's personality into another person and more fully understand that person. Sympathy derives from Latin and Greek words meaning 'having a fellow feeling'. The term empathy originated in psychology (translation of a German term, c. 1903) and has now come to mean the ability to imagine or project oneself into another person's position and experience all the sensations involved in that position. You feel empathy when you've "been there", and sympathy when you haven't. Examples: We felt sympathy for the team members who tried hard but were not appreciated. / We felt empathy for children with asthma because their parents won't remove pets from the household.

Empathy | Define Empathy at Dictionary.com

empathy
noun
1.
the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.
2.
the imaginative ascribing to an object, as a natural object or work of art, feelings or attitudes present in oneself

British Dictionary definitions
empathy
noun
1.
the power of understanding and imaginatively entering into another person's feelings See also identification (sense 3b)

2.
the attribution to an object, such as a work of art, of one's own emotional or intellectual feelings about it

empathy in Medicine
n.

Direct identification with, understanding of, and vicarious experience of another person's situation, feelings, and motives.

The projection of one's own feelings or emotional state onto an object or animal.

empathy in Culture
Identifying oneself completely with an object or person, sometimes even to the point of responding physically, as when, watching a baseball player swing at a pitch, one feels one's own muscles flex.

Based on this and on all the heated posts going around here, Aspies can be quite sympathetic, but empathy is a little more difficult. For those of you looking for more fuel to add to your "this article is BS" fire, most of the definitions do not make any requirement of action, except for the cultural one, and the wording of that one makes it seem like an occasional reaction even for neurotypicals.

So then what really is empathy? How can we know neurotypicals express it properly? How can we know that Aspies don't express it properly? The brain is a remarkably adaptive organ, as we've seen. How can one look at it and say that Aspie brains don't function properly when clearly they are functional human beings albeit a little unorthodox on the social and sometimes sensory sides? A Ford is a functional car just as Toyotas are functional cars. They are mostly just wired differently.

Another question: if NTs are so empathetic, then how is it that NTs seem to have no empathy with Aspies? (My hypothesis: NTs can sometimes sympathize, but not empathize, because apparently Aspies cannot project their personalities in a way that NTs can empathize with. It's a different language. I think some of these definitions sound a little bit like empathy is some form of subconscious astral projection.)


Now it's driving me nuts that so many people confuse those the terms "sympathy" and "empathy."

[rosska]

Originally Posted by snickie

Now it's driving me nuts that so many people confuse those the terms "sympathy" and "empathy."

Personally, I don't think I'm confusing sympathy and empathy. I do empathise a lot of the time, I just don't necessarily express that well to the other person. For instance, if one of my family or friends are down about something then I feel down and my mind thinks of the things that have happened to me which are similar to what is happening to them. Going by the dictionary.com definition where it states "you feel empathy when you've 'been there' and sympathy when you have not", then is not drawing on your own previous experiences which have caused similar feelings, empathy?

That is a genuine question by the way, if it is not then please do tell me because sometimes I think something is a certain way and unless somebody tells me otherwise I will continue to believe it whether it's true or not.

[CantExplain]

I find it difficult to understand how NTs feel and what to say.

It would be easier if they didn't lie to me about their feelings. I can see they are in distress, but they insist they are fine or just tired. So I gave up. Better to say nothing than to say the wrong thing.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by snickie

Based on this and on all the heated posts going around here, Aspies can be quite sympathetic, but empathy is a little more difficult. For those of you looking for more fuel to add to your "this article is BS" fire, most of the definitions do not make any requirement of action, except for the cultural one, and the wording of that one makes it seem like an occasional reaction even for neurotypicals.

So then what really is empathy? How can we know neurotypicals express it properly? How can we know that Aspies don't express it properly? The brain is a remarkably adaptive organ, as we've seen. How can one look at it and say that Aspie brains don't function properly when clearly they are functional human beings albeit a little unorthodox on the social and sometimes sensory sides? A Ford is a functional car just as Toyotas are functional cars. They are mostly just wired differently.

Another question: if NTs are so empathetic, then how is it that NTs seem to have no empathy with Aspies? (My hypothesis: NTs can sometimes sympathize, but not empathize, because apparently Aspies cannot project their personalities in a way that NTs can empathize with. It's a different language. I think some of these definitions sound a little bit like empathy is some form of subconscious astral projection.)


Now it's driving me nuts that so many people confuse those the terms "sympathy" and "empathy."

It would make sense people with aspergers could have difficulty empathizing with neurotypicals, but also neurotypicals aren't very good at empathizing with people with aspergers/autism. However a lot of people with autism/aspergers also have depression so could probably empathsize with people with depression as far as that experience...even people off the spectrum with it. So I just don't think the initial article really proves anything substantial if you really get into the specifics of what empathy and sympathy actually mean and differences between them.

Regardless I know I have empathy based on those definitions, maybe not for all situations but its not like I have a total inability to put myself in anothers shoes and understand how they feel via having the context of probably feeling myself that way before.

[-jimi-]

So... let me see if I got this straight... empathy is a designer word to disallow spectrum people from having human emotions about other humans.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by -jimi-

So... let me see if I got this straight... empathy is a designer word to disallow spectrum people from having human emotions about other humans.

Well said!

[eskielover]

Ok....here is an NT's concept on empathy & sympathy toward others.

If a person goes through something that is bad, sad, or causes them distress it always helps them to feel better receiving understanding in the form of sympathy or empathy. It validates the fact there is a reason why they feel bad & lets them know that others understand how they are feeling.

Given that...if other people feel sympathy/empathy but never express it to the person in words or actions, how is that person going to know that anyone cares? Their feelings end up going invalidated & are left feeling not cared about or understood.

So if we hold onto our sympathy or empathy feelings without communicating them we leave the person forced to read our minds hoping that the support feelings are there without really being able to be sure (assumptions are never 100% accurate or safe to make) or the person is left feeling uncared about & invalidated that what they bad feeling they are feeling is the appropriate feeling they should be experiencing.

Just because empathy/ sympathy is difficult to express even though it's felt inside doesn't mean it's not important for the other person....everyone whethed aspie or NT needs to have their feelings validated through the expression of others in the form or sympathy or empathy. So whether it's missing because the other person can't express what they are feeling or because they don't feel it in the first place the necessary validation is missing.

I went through a traumatic experience...I needed support & validation that what I went through was traumatic& that my feelings were understood (heard home care person on the phone applying for a credit card using stolen ID of my mother & me. Had to fight to get phone away from her & while trying to find out who she had been talking to phone went dead...found a short while later base phone chord had been cut...I was alone in the house with this person with my mother out of it dying of cancer)...told my H when he came a few hours later & all I got from him was this look that looked like he thought I was crazy & making up some crazy story totally invalidating the traumatic experience I went through & was going through with this home care person.

Whether or not one is able to express it doesnt take away the need for validation of feelings & inderstanding that comes from the show of sympathy or empathy...a need that all humans have

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I577 using Tapatalk 2

[-jimi-]

Well, of course an aspie can give you feedback on what you feel. I mean I even know a few that actually do and say they do they have very little empathy, and still they of course give me some kind of response if I seek feedback from them. And very many actually do have feelings for others and do express it, just not in the "correct" manner. When it comes to validation (which is NOT the same as empathy), people seem totally drawn to me for validation, so I assume I am good at giving that.

[snickie]

Okay, your post makes a lot more sense, eskielover. Now I understand why Aspies and other autistics are considered to not have empathy.

I will admit that I don't empathize or sympathize with a lot of people and their issues. Intellectually I know that I should and about half of the time I'm prepared to give a "proper" response even though I really don't feel anything. I don't like doing that, though, because it's not really being true to myself, so I try to only use it when I absolutely have to. I think I'm a bad actress, but people seem to buy into it.

When I'm genuine about my response (if that response is indifference), then people tend to give me weird looks, and I start feeling like my indifference is invalid and we all feel bad. Like, I'm that person who sees "295" in a news text and worry that there's a wreck on I-295 but them I'm totally relieved when it's just an airplane crash that killed 295 people that I have no connection with whatsoever (this actually happened). I said so to the person next to me at the time, and she was shocked at the plane crash and my general indifference towards it. Is that so wrong? Yes, yes it is.

WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO FEEL INDIFFERENT JUST AS EVERYONE ELSE IS ALLOWED TO FEEL HAPPY OR UPSET OR WHATEVER.

And then it also works the other way sometimes -- meaning I can feel indifferent to other people trying to express empathy/sympathy. I could be upset about something and just feel the need to rant, so I do, and then people are like, "I'm so sorry." And I don't feel any different because their "I'm so sorry" doesn't really do anything to fix the problem. So I tell them not to be sorry, that it's not their fault (because it usually isn't). They usually go on to explain why they're sorry, and I already know why they say they're sorry, but it still doesn't help anything. So then I get even more irritated and start regretting the rant because that was equally unhelpful as the person who apologizes for my struggles that they have no part in.


Am I alone in this? Is this even relevant to the article anymore? LOL

[Alone & confused]

The one thing that worries me about the lack of empathy, is simply not knowing how my child feels, whether or not he's hurting inside and needing my understanding, attention, or help of some kind, and is unable to let me know. I don't want him to think that I don't care just because I don't know he needs me! I love my son & accept him just as he is, but I need to know how to tell when he's truly ok, or when he just don't know how to "cue" me if somethings wrong. Can anyone shed some light on that for me please? He always has this "its ok" demeanor, even when I know there's something more going on, but he won't talk about it much if at all. Like, if I get a call from the school, & I ask him what happened, he may give me a brief description, but won't say how he feels about it.

[-jimi-]

That is the other end of it that no one seems to see. Yea, it is common that spectrum people as kids and adults actually do not seek emotional comfort. That is not them lacking empathy, but them not able to use the empathy of others.

I think more aspies refrain from seeking emotional support than aspies refusing to give support in any kind of way. Maybe this is the real issue. Because the NT can always go to 100 other NT's and get their awww's, but the aspie can't really go anywhere. Accepting emotional support is a strange concept for many aspies, I am sure they need it but I'm not sure how to go about it.

[Alone & confused]

Originally Posted by -jimi-

That is the other end of it that no one seems to see. Yea, it is common that spectrum people as kids and adults actually do not seek emotional comfort. That is not them lacking empathy, but them not able to use the empathy of others.

I think more aspies refrain from seeking emotional support than aspies refusing to give support in any kind of way. Maybe this is the real issue. Because the NT can always go to 100 other NT's and get their awww's, but the aspie can't really go anywhere. Accepting emotional support is a strange concept for many aspies, I am sure they need it but I'm not sure how to go about it.

I have 4 other children older than him that don't have aspie & it's so hard trying to raise him "differently" because he doesn't respond or interact the same way the others do, so now I'm having to learn a new way of parenting so he can have the best life I can offer him, & at the same time I've got my own ordinal battles of bipolar/depression & anxiety. And I'm trying to learn all I can to find out what this it's like for him & what he's going through so I won't mess things up for him. Thank you for responding!

[Hellion]

...accidental double post

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by eskielover

Ok....here is an NT's concept on empathy & sympathy toward others.

If a person goes through something that is bad, sad, or causes them distress it always helps them to feel better receiving understanding in the form of sympathy or empathy. It validates the fact there is a reason why they feel bad & lets them know that others understand how they are feeling.

Given that...if other people feel sympathy/empathy but never express it to the person in words or actions, how is that person going to know that anyone cares? Their feelings end up going invalidated & are left feeling not cared about or understood.

So if we hold onto our sympathy or empathy feelings without communicating them we leave the person forced to read our minds hoping that the support feelings are there without really being able to be sure (assumptions are never 100% accurate or safe to make) or the person is left feeling uncared about & invalidated that what they bad feeling they are feeling is the appropriate feeling they should be experiencing.

Just because empathy/ sympathy is difficult to express even though it's felt inside doesn't mean it's not important for the other person....everyone whethed aspie or NT needs to have their feelings validated through the expression of others in the form or sympathy or empathy. So whether it's missing because the other person can't express what they are feeling or because they don't feel it in the first place the necessary validation is missing.

I went through a traumatic experience...I needed support & validation that what I went through was traumatic& that my feelings were understood (heard home care person on the phone applying for a credit card using stolen ID of my mother & me. Had to fight to get phone away from her & while trying to find out who she had been talking to phone went dead...found a short while later base phone chord had been cut...I was alone in the house with this person with my mother out of it dying of cancer)...told my H when he came a few hours later & all I got from him was this look that looked like he thought I was crazy & making up some crazy story totally invalidating the traumatic experience I went through & was going through with this home care person.

Whether or not one is able to express it doesnt take away the need for validation of feelings & inderstanding that comes from the show of sympathy or empathy...a need that all humans have

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I577 using Tapatalk 2

I think the point is it can be hard for us to express things, but doesn't mean we lack things like empathy and sympathy. It is more difficult for us as it has to do with social skills since autism effects our social abilities. Doesn't mean no one with autism ever verbally expresses empathy or sympathy...or ever expresses it via behavior like maybe giving the person a hug if its a close friend going through a hard time or whatever people with autism are capable of these things.

I know I have expressed empathy and have validated peoples feelings, its just more difficult to do things like that when you have autism....even just talking to people is hard...but again its nothing to do with not caring about others or having no empathy/sympathy.

Also people with autism also need validation of feelings and understanding and much of the time do not get any of that...even from nuerotypicals who are supposedly the masters at empathy and sympathy as well as expressing it.

And not sure what the incident with the person stealing ID info has to do with the topic, sounds like they where behaving very inappropriately...I hope you're not trying to imply they are an example of how most autistic people act. Also though sounds like your husband was being a jerk if you tell someone who is supposed to be close to you that you have an issue and are struggling with something if their default response is to look at you like you're crazy and not believe you I say that points to some relationship issues or he doesn't care very much about other people.

[Alone & confused]

(note: I don't know how or why the word "ordinal" showed up in my last post! Swyping error & lack of proof reading I guess.)
Anyway, since he doesn't give me ques as to when something may have happened that needs validation, I find myself playing detective, watching what's going on in his environment (when he's home) to see if I need to intervene, address a problem that he won't tell me about, & see if he will talk to me about his feelings. Like, one time he & his brother got into a dispute. I went to see about him 1st, then was going to go confront his brother. But he just kept telling me, "no, it's ok mom. Don't worry about it! Just, don't say anything to him. It's ok." I didn't know what to think about that. Was he REALLY not bothered by what his brother had done? Or was it ENOUGH for him that I came to check on him & deal with the situation? Things that I think would surely upset him that I try to validate his feelings on, often times he just shrugs off & says "Eh, don't worry about it. It's no big deal." So my question is, is he really that "thick skinned" that he really DOESN'T let as many things bother him as I think would? Do I assume too much, & try to"fix"problems that may not exist? Or am I UNDERestimating the problem? I want him to feel the same love, connection, bond from me as his siblings. I want him to know (through my actions toward him) that he is loved & valued every bit as much as the others, but I can't tell if that is communicated effectively, since there may be things I've missed.

[Hellion]

^maybe he was embarrassed about the conflic with his brother and thought having you talk to him about it might make it worse or more embarrassing. Or maybe to him it wouldn't be worth getting his brother talked to or penalized over it not sure how they get along but I know me and my siblings a lot of times sorted out things among ourselves and didn't bring parents into it but we also have gotten along pretty well.

[Alone & confused]

Originally Posted by Hellion

^maybe he was embarrassed about the conflic with his brother and thought having you talk to him about it might make it worse or more embarrassing. Or maybe to him it wouldn't be worth getting his brother talked to or penalized over it not sure how they get along but I know me and my siblings a lot of times sorted out things among ourselves and didn't bring parents into it but we also have gotten along pretty well.

Thanks. That's kinda what I thought too. So how do I know when validation is actually needed as opposed to being meddlesome, you know? I don't want to miss something important to him & not be there when he needs me, but I don't want him to feel like I'm hovering & coddling too much either.