[BBB2]

How does it present differently in females?
What are the lesser known traits and symptoms which are often missed?
Is there an online test aimed specifically at women? (I've never found one, only checklists).

Thank you

[UrbanShaman]

I don't believe it does, (Though seeing as I do not have it, just speaking from a relative's point of view, take what I say with a grain of salt). Perhaps the fact that women have different societal roles pushed on them than women, it reacts differently to that, but I don't belief estrogen/testosterone makes it express differently.

[-jimi-]

It's always hard to try to analyze this, because it easily turns into stereotypes, but I will still give it a go.

When boys get stressed and confused, they may act out. Girls might turn that feeling inside instead and develop anxiety.

Girls might not get into femininity while boys, well the can act "neutral" gender wise and never be questioned.

It is said that Asperger girls have less special interests, but in reality they just have more socially acceptable ones. While boys might be extremely interested in trains (stereotype! sorry!), girls might take an interest in the life of an idol/book character, do art, music and do creative writing or develop an interest in pets.

It is also speculated that girls in general have more social pressure on them and that would go for the girl with Asperger's as well. That might explain why she is sometimes better at social situations than boys.

Baron-Cohen is a pretty smart guy and I like most of his stuff but I am very critical to his autism quizzes as they do have a gender bias.

Here is from his AQ test:

I usually notice car number plates or similar strings of information

I am fascinated by numbers

I am not very good at remembering phone numbers

I am not very good at remembering people's date of birth

Of course some aspergirls are interested in math and science, but some are more drawn to language and details of language.

If I try to imagine something, I find it very easy to create a picture in my mind

When I'm reading a story, I can easily imagine what the characters might look like

I find making up stories easy

I don't particularly enjoy reading fiction

I find it very easy to play games with children that involve pretending

If an aspergirl indeed has a vivid imagination, she will score low on this test and not seen as having as many autistic traits.

[BBB2]

Thank you, Jimi, for writing such a detailed and helpful reply.
It is an interesting point about the gender bias in the AQ test.

[Hellion]

I am not sure it presents entirely differently in females...it also may depend on the female with autism since of course there are differences between females. So not really sure of anything specific or if there even would be any very specific 'difference'. There is some info out there, but I don't know of anything substantial you may find some info if you just type 'female aspergers' or 'differences between male and female aspergers' in a search engine and just look through those results but not sure there is a lot of definitive science on the topic or anything.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by -jimi-

It's always hard to try to analyze this, because it easily turns into stereotypes, but I will still give it a go.

When boys get stressed and confused, they may act out. Girls might turn that feeling inside instead and develop anxiety.

Girls might not get into femininity while boys, well the can act "neutral" gender wise and never be questioned.

It is said that Asperger girls have less special interests, but in reality they just have more socially acceptable ones. While boys might be extremely interested in trains (stereotype! sorry!), girls might take an interest in the life of an idol/book character, do art, music and do creative writing or develop an interest in pets.

It is also speculated that girls in general have more social pressure on them and that would go for the girl with Asperger's as well. That might explain why she is sometimes better at social situations than boys.

Baron-Cohen is a pretty smart guy and I like most of his stuff but I am very critical to his autism quizzes as they do have a gender bias.

Here is from his AQ test:

I usually notice car number plates or similar strings of information

I am fascinated by numbers

I am not very good at remembering phone numbers

I am not very good at remembering people's date of birth

Of course some aspergirls are interested in math and science, but some are more drawn to language and details of language.

If I try to imagine something, I find it very easy to create a picture in my mind

When I'm reading a story, I can easily imagine what the characters might look like

I find making up stories easy

I don't particularly enjoy reading fiction

I find it very easy to play games with children that involve pretending

If an aspergirl indeed has a vivid imagination, she will score low on this test and not seen as having as many autistic traits.

Not to change the topic but isn't Baron-Cohen the one that claimed autistics are essentially like psychopaths if not even more lacking in empathy? If so I'd say maybe things he says should be taken with a bucket of salt...even if he is smart.

[BBB2]

Originally Posted by Hellion

I am not sure it presents entirely differently in females...it also may depend on the female with autism since of course there are differences between females. So not really sure of anything specific or if there even would be any very specific 'difference'. There is some info out there, but I don't know of anything substantial you may find some info if you just type 'female aspergers' or 'differences between male and female aspergers' in a search engine and just look through those results but not sure there is a lot of definitive science on the topic or anything.

Thank you. I found this short article by Dr Tony Attwood on his website: Girls and women who have Asperger's

[BBB2]

Originally Posted by Hellion

Not to change the topic but isn't Baron-Cohen the one that claimed autistics are essentially like psychopaths if not even more lacking in empathy? If so I'd say maybe things he says should be taken with a bucket of salt...even if he is smart.

Yes. Here is a link to an email interview (from 2011) about his book The Science of Evil, which also discusses autism. An Interview With Simon Baron-Cohen On Zero-Empathy, Autism, And Accountability

Here is a key quote:
The key difference seems to be that in psychopaths the 'cognitive' component of empathy is intact but the 'affective' component is not. In autism, both components may be impaired, or just the cognitive component. But their strong systemizing leads them, through powerful logic, to develop a moral code based on 'fairness' and 'justice'. Psychopaths lack the moral compass that most people develop using their empathy, and lack the moral compass that people with autism develop using their strong systemizing. People with autism spectrum conditions often end up as 'super-moral', developing a set of rules they expect people to live up to consistently (such as honesty), arriving at the conclusion that one should 'treat others as you would have others treat you' because it is the most logical approach.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by BBB2

Yes. Here is a link to an email interview (from 2011) about his book The Science of Evil, which also discusses autism. An Interview With Simon Baron-Cohen On Zero-Empathy, Autism, And Accountability

Here is a key quote:
The key difference seems to be that in psychopaths the 'cognitive' component of empathy is intact but the 'affective' component is not. In autism, both components may be impaired, or just the cognitive component. But their strong systemizing leads them, through powerful logic, to develop a moral code based on 'fairness' and 'justice'. Psychopaths lack the moral compass that most people develop using their empathy, and lack the moral compass that people with autism develop using their strong systemizing. People with autism spectrum conditions often end up as 'super-moral', developing a set of rules they expect people to live up to consistently (such as honesty), arriving at the conclusion that one should 'treat others as you would have others treat you' because it is the most logical approach.

Hmm whoever told me about that failed to mention the bit about developing a moral compass....still though I do feel emotions towards people. Like if someone was upset I wouldn't attempt to comfort them simply because 'its the right thing to do' there would also be the component of feeling bad for them, knowing how it feels to be upset. Or like if someone reacts a certain way I can see why they maybe did so or relate to it isn't that some form of empathy?

[BBB2]

Originally Posted by Hellion

Hmm whoever told me about that failed to mention the bit about developing a moral compass....still though I do feel emotions towards people. Like if someone was upset I wouldn't attempt to comfort them simply because 'its the right thing to do' there would also be the component of feeling bad for them, knowing how it feels to be upset. Or like if someone reacts a certain way I can see why they maybe did so or relate to it isn't that some form of empathy?

I've heard it said often that aspies have high affective, or emotional, empathy.They feel what others feel [I]very[I] strongly. Some cry watching the news, and connect well with animals, things like that.
Here is an interesting discussion on Wrongplanet:
Three different types of empathy - how did I miss this?? | Wrong Planet Autism Community Forum

[kim_johnson]

I think Simon Baron-Cohen is the one with the empathy deficit...

I like what I read somewhere about how people with autistic spectrum don't seem to lack empathy... They seem full of empathy for each other... It is more that they are differently empathetic. I really like the cat-dog analogy. The idea being that dogs are social animals who are responsive to hierarchy whereas cats are more solitary. You see a puppy approach a kitten trying to make friends and there is a fundamental disconnect. The puppy is too boisterous and gregarious and it overwhelms and frightens the kitten. Telling the kitten to 'get on in there!' isn't likely to help... The puppy needs to chill out and back off and... Read the signals, I mean really, sheesh... ;-)

And it isn't that cats aren't affectionate... You just need to give them a quiet and the space so that they get the opportunity to approach you. You need to quit grabbing at them with your grabby hands and show a little... Dignity. Or something. Sniff.

I've heard that girls often appear more socialized than boys because girls are more social, generally, so the Aspie girl is more likely to find herself groomed by some other girl... Taken under their wing, basically. Girls are also a bit more... Stereotypical... In their social interaction. How hard is it to squeel 'oooooooooooooooh meeeeeeeeee toooooooooooo'. ? Easier than pulling off macho on the sports field...

Also... Slightly stereotypical... But looking like an awkward gangly bambi just works out better for girls than for guys...

Apparently girls obsessions are more likely to be horses or dogs or other pets... But liking to... Line models of them up, for example, more than play with them in more usual ways. Apparently classical literature / literary novels is also a common obsession for girls... That it is perhaps part of a quest to figure out 'normal' (doggy / pack mentality) human psychology.

[Hellion]

Originally Posted by kim_johnson

I think Simon Baron-Cohen is the one with the empathy deficit...

I like what I read somewhere about how people with autistic spectrum don't seem to lack empathy... They seem full of empathy for each other... It is more that they are differently empathetic. I really like the cat-dog analogy. The idea being that dogs are social animals who are responsive to hierarchy whereas cats are more solitary. You see a puppy approach a kitten trying to make friends and there is a fundamental disconnect. The puppy is too boisterous and gregarious and it overwhelms and frightens the kitten. Telling the kitten to 'get on in there!' isn't likely to help... The puppy needs to chill out and back off and... Read the signals, I mean really, sheesh... ;-)

And it isn't that cats aren't affectionate... You just need to give them a quiet and the space so that they get the opportunity to approach you. You need to quit grabbing at them with your grabby hands and show a little... Dignity. Or something. Sniff.

I've heard that girls often appear more socialized than boys because girls are more social, generally, so the Aspie girl is more likely to find herself groomed by some other girl... Taken under their wing, basically. Girls are also a bit more... Stereotypical... In their social interaction. How hard is it to squeel 'oooooooooooooooh meeeeeeeeee toooooooooooo'. ? Easier than pulling off macho on the sports field...

Also... Slightly stereotypical... But looking like an awkward gangly bambi just works out better for girls than for guys...

Apparently girls obsessions are more likely to be horses or dogs or other pets... But liking to... Line models of them up, for example, more than play with them in more usual ways. Apparently classical literature / literary novels is also a common obsession for girls... That it is perhaps part of a quest to figure out 'normal' (doggy / pack mentality) human psychology.

I don't feel I was generally more social, I still to this day have a hard time initiating any social interaction. And I mostly just got picked on by other girls as I was 'weird' or whatever...I was pretty obsessed with cats and enjoyed reading quite a lot non-fiction, fiction, whatever. As for playing I had barbies like any typical girl but I think I was more into action figures and actually coming up with plots to act out with them. like I'd have them fight each other or have a group of mean action figures capture some of the nice ones and then have come up with a plan for the good team to use to free them and stuff like that...I even did that with the barbies and any other more girlish toys I had. I also liked playing with cars and such...I wasn't a very typical girl I don't think.

[kim_johnson]

I had lego, which I liked. I had a castle set, and I liked the horses... I also collected my little ponies and had about 20 or them, or something... But I liked to line them up... Alphabetically... By color... Alphabetically and by color... OOooh novel algorithm etc etc...

Cars were cool... My grandfather had (old) striped carpet and that was fun... Lines on the floor... Yay...

I've had girls try and take me under their wing over the years... But I do'nt like it. They... Treat me like one of their dolls. Want to put make-up on me and dress me up with clothes etc... I don't like it because I don't tolerate stiff clothes / tags and I have an aversion to the smell of make-up... But I hear a bunch of aspie girls get by this way...

I also hear that sometimes Aspie girls (especially young ones) will develop obsessions for... ANyting that 'typical' girls get obsessed with. So... Instead of things like horses or other pets it could be an obsession with a particular band or with make-up or something like that.

The point being that Aspie girls often pull off a 'socialised' aspect that aspie boys do not. Instead of being obsessed with things like rockets or cars or trains or numbers... Girls tend to get obsessed with things like boy bands or make-up or literary fiction...

[-jimi-]

About empathy, it seems like there is no one type of empathy with Asperger's. Some can look at a sad person and feel sadness inside. Some can look at the sad person and not understand that he is sad. Some can look at the sad person and understand he is sad but not feel sadness, yet empathizing in theory. I've seen all variants and I can't really say one is more typical.

[marmaduke]

I have a female relative who I believe to be aspergers.
It can be much harder to diagnose in females, they are just 'different' slightly 'out there' maybe.
My relative is attractive, holds down a job but sometimes she says odd things, puzzling things that dont quite fit. She's likeable enough.
She is married and has a son and daughter. The son is aspies definitely. He is obsessed with snakes. He doesn't do small talk.
Males with aspies often do not get diagnosed, females very rarely. People sense they are slightly different but cant put their finger on why.

[kim_johnson]

Yeah, Jimi, I think there are different things going on with the empathy thing... Some people seem to have more of a difficulty processing faces and information gained from faces. I have trouble putting faces to names - I find eye contact to be too inimate so I intentionally don't register face information, if that makes sense.... But I can get information about what a person is feeling from their face. But some other Aspie people can't, yeah. They really try but they simply aren't able to tell.

[labelle 8]

Originally Posted by BBB2

How does it present differently in females?
What are the lesser known traits and symptoms which are often missed?
Is there an online test aimed specifically at women? (I've never found one, only checklists).

Thank you

I am an Aspie too and a female. I seem to have many of the traits that anyone that has Asperger's deals with. I have difficulty socially as well as the work environment. I cannot read people very well. Example if someone is trying to talk to me I cannot tell if they are happy sad angry at me or what???? This one of my biggest issues. I am socially inept. You must be very smart as most have high IQ's. Another trait I have is I cannot look people in the eyes. I have great difficulty with this. I have to tell myself over and over to look at people when you are talking to them. I also have bipolar disorder which gets me into trouble combined with the Asperger's.I did have a therapist I met with that works with individuals that have Asperger's. I never found an online test for Asperger's specifically for women. If you have not read this book I found it to be helpful. The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome.

[snickie]

(Oh no, it's another wall of text. I really need to stop doing that. Especially at 2am on a school night.)

As I've said in other threads, I'm not an officially diagnosed Aspie but I definitely suspect that I have it. And I guess I'm something of a hybrid of the "stereotypical" Aspie boy and and the "stereotypical" Aspie girl (if you can even call it that).

For example, my interests lie in math, music, and medicine (although the medical part is pretty limited given my choices to pursue the other two). My hobbies are somewhat creative in nature such as crochet, drawing, and what could be considered drafting (i.e. drawing in a very metered way with an emphasis on lines and shapes); however, I could never be a music composition major. I know the Greek alphabet and in fact used to take notes using that alphabet in order to keep people from wanting to borrow my notes only to never give them back. I'm learning IPA now for the fun of it as well.

I'm socially awkward and usually pretty clueless. Today during a rehearsal, we were on break, and I was messing with my music when this guy comes up to me, and to make a long story short I basically was super aloof and didn't realize what was happening until he walked away. I'm blunt and a bit sarcastic (deadpan) and enjoy self-deprecating humor. All at the same time, I can scream "OOOOHHHH MMMYYYY GOOOSSSHHH I LOVE YOUR SHIRT" with the rest of them but it usually feels fake and empty. Deadpan is my go-to for vocal inflections. So I'm functional, just tuned a little bit differently, and if we can't find a mutual frequency then it's all just static. Also, I'm pretty non-confrontational, so my relationships with other people are stable enough.

My empathy is the logical kind - I can see a sad person and know that they're sad, but unless I know that the reason they're sad is also something that has evoked sadness in me already, I will feel nothing. I'm really bad at handling other people's emotional outbreaks. Um. There there? -awkward Sheldonesque hug and pat pat- (The other person might start giggling at that because of the Sheldon parallels so I guess it works?)

I'm kind of bad at emulating empathy and emotions as well because, as I said, it doesn't often feel real. And if it doesn't feel real, I won't put as much effort into it. I have a hard time with this as a music performance major because a good performer is marked by his/her musicality and ability to communicate emotions, however strong or subtle, through the medium of their music. Technicality is secondary. I'm the person who practices the technical for the technical and does just fine with it technically, and who fails to see the musical opportunity within those technical exercises. I've been able to successfully "connect" emotionally to maybe three pieces out of all of the repertoire/etudes/exercises I've played. The rest of the time, if I'm doing shaping and musical stuff, it's probably robotic and it's probably because it's written in or copied from some other performer. (This makes playing the composition majors' pieces difficult because there is no reference recording except for the robotic MIDI files generated by notation software, for which I have an unfortunate affinity.)

My roommate told me the other day that I remind her a lot of her crush from high school who is a diagnosed Aspie male, that some of the things I say are almost exactly what/how he would say.

Does my experience help answer the original question? I don't know. I don't even have an official diagnosis, so who can really tell? (If it helps, when I answer honestly I usually score half-and-half NT/Aspie on the Baron-Cohen test with just a slight edge given to Aspie.)



Regarding the stereotypes brought up earlier, I've heard that grown females/women with Asperger's are a lot more likely to be diagnosed as Borderline PD than as autistic, probably due to the usually-present instability of their social relationships.

[kim_johnson]

> Regarding the stereotypes brought up earlier, I've heard that grown females/women with Asperger's are a lot more likely to be diagnosed as Borderline PD than as autistic, probably due to the usually-present instability of their social relationships.

Yes. I was previously diagnosed with this.. Clinician's felt I could benefit from doing DBT skills group training and I needed a dx of borderline to qualify for the program.

I found the other people in the program to be more... Fear of being alone... I never got that and it hurt me a lot that people thought I had that... That people would accuse me of 'attention seeking' for... Self stimming / harming sorts of things...

I... Don't really believe in diagnoses... Just... Different flavors of distress... Or something like that.

It did help to meet other people who understood what it was like to feel such distress / pain... I think mine was largely due to sensory issues... COmpression clothing and working hard at the gym etc has made a world of difference for me...