I am convinced I am highly alexithymic. Anyone else here feel that way? For those who aren't familiar, instead of explaining it here is the wikipedia article: Alexithymia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It seems a very relatable concept to AvPD (but maybe not with everyone's specific reasons for being avoidant, because I think there can be different causes of AvPD with a similar result of social avoidance). But whether or not you think it relates to you it's an interesting concept.

AvPD-relevant quotes from wikipedia article include:

"The core characteristics of alexithymia are marked dysfunction in emotional awareness, social attachment, and interpersonal relating."

"Alexithymia creates interpersonal problems because these individuals tend to avoid emotionally close relationships, or if they do form relationships with others they usually position themselves as either dependent, dominant, or impersonal, 'such that the relationship remains superficial'."

"two interpersonal problems are significantly and stably related to alexithymia: cold/distant and non-assertive social functioning."

[Hoasis]

I think its very hard to define what type of avoidant each person is, there is no doubt a lot of these symptoms that are described in alexithymia also applies for avoidants. What exactly makes you think you are connected to this alexithymia? Any specific ideas? What got to me personally was this:

Alexithymia is defined by:[9]
- difficulty identifying feelings and distinguishing between feelings and the bodily sensations of emotional arousal
- difficulty describing feelings to other people
"or if they do form relationships with others they usually position themselves as either dependent, dominant, or impersonal, "such that the relationship remains superficial"

But again what makes this different from AvPD? I never involve with other people unless I know I will be accepted (either being the dominant part or the dominated). Does any of this relate to you nowhere?

[A Red Panda]

It's definitely not me. While sure, there are similarities (my relationships are all at least somewhat superficial as I don't trust people to accept me), but the majority of it doesn't fit me in the slightest.

From reading that, it sounds a lot like alexithymia has a lack of empathy, which to me doesn't correlate with AvPD... it's more related to NPD or AsPD. I also don't find that there's anything saying that AvPD aren't aware of their feelings (worded that wrong) or not recognizing others' emotions... nor is there anything to really make anyone think that AvPD people are cold/distant.

I'm sure that there are people who are both AvPD and alexithymic, but the description of Alexithymia could be applied to all of the personality disorders if you only looked at a bit of it.

It has mostly to do with being very out of touch with your own emotions, being unable to describe your emotions if asked, being unable to tell what exactly is causing your emotions and why, and so forth. The way I understand it, it basically means you are extremely disconnected from your own emotions and generally emotionally stunted because at some point you "shut down" your emotions as a defense mechanism. And since you're really out of touch with your own emotions you have problems with emotionally relating to others because you are kind of emotionally "dumb" and emotionally disconnected, which makes non-superficial relationships very hard.

I can definitely relate to the ones you pointed out, Hoasis, but honestly I can related to pretty much all of it... seems like it could be one pathway to AvPD but I'm sure there are others and that not everybody here can relate to it. Maybe some AvPDers can describe their emotions really well and are "in touch with their feelings" but I am the total opposite and couldn't articulately express my emotions to someone else to save my life. And it doesn't mean you have NO emotions or that you cannot express them in a rudimentary way, but you might use overly simplistic words like "upset", "down", "happy", etc. instead of being able to paint an appropriately complex and differentiated emotional world that an emotionally "healthy" person would feel and be able to describe.

It overlaps with a lot of mental disorders, not just AvPD. People with Schizoid, Borderline, Avoidant and Antisocial PDs are more often alexithymic than the general population but it is associated with many non-PD mental disorders like autism spectrum disorders, PTSD, anorexia/bulimia, major depression, and social phobia as well as substance abuse.

I don't think you can trust these things very much but here is the online alexithymia questionnaire if anyone is interested. My main complaint with it is that I couldn't relate at all to the questions about relying on other people to interpret how you should feel in a situation because I mostly just avoid people let alone emotional conversations, heh. Don't think those questions have high validity for avoidants so I just picked undecided for them: Online Alexithymia Questionnaire

[A Red Panda]

Originally Posted by nowheretohide

It has mostly to do with being very out of touch with your own emotions, being unable to describe your emotions if asked, being unable to tell what exactly is causing your emotions and why, and so forth. The way I understand it, it basically means you are extremely disconnected from your own emotions and generally emotionally stunted because at some point you "shut down" your emotions as a defense mechanism. And since you're really out of touch with your own emotions you have problems with emotionally relating to others because you are kind of emotionally "dumb" and emotionally disconnected, which makes non-superficial relationships very hard.

60 Points - Few to no alexthymia traits.

The part of your post that I quoted above really sums it up well. I don't think that that's really related at all to AvPD, although I can see how it could be co-morbid (then again, I think pretty much everything can be co-morbid with something else!).

Personally, I think with AvPD it isn't that you (people who don't have something else which would inhibit their ability to be in touch with their emotions) you out of touch with your emotions... it's just that I think a lot of AvPD is simply avoiding them - so not being willing to share them and trying to hide them. I don't think that really inhibits feeling them or recognizing what they are.

But having to deal with both, I can only imagine how horrendous that would be!!

I began writing my reply before your post, red panda, but you are definitely right about it not being directly related to avoidance. But it correlates with a number of different mental issues (50% of chronic substance abusers are said to be alexithymic according to studies and over 50% of people who are anorexic/bulimic).

In this case I think the lack of empathy thing doesn't necessarily mean you are in the sociopath direction. I think in this case it has to do more with not being able to accurately and intuitively appreciate someone else's emotional point of view ("impaired theory of mind"). Similar to the "lack of empathy" that is said to be a significant part of asperger's syndrome or HFA. My understanding is that people with aspergers tend to be significantly less manipulative than average, but then they might incidentally say or do something insensitive that is hurtful because they have a hard time seeing the emotional point of view of others. A study that wikipedia references found 85% of people with ASD/Asperger's were "impaired" (alexithymically) and 50% were "severly impaired" so there must be a differentiation between two different types of "lack of empathy" (evil vs. well-intentioned).

Sorry for the lecture-sounding post, but my point is I think it's more like a lack of intuitive understanding of the emotional intricacies of other people than a lack of caring who you hurt or manipulate as in AsPD, NPD or sociopathy.

Maybe we AvPDers all have our own reasons for being uncomfortable with other people in general or only of non-superficial relationships and this is just one possibility. AvPD seems to be a collection of symptoms with no specified root cause.

again you have managed to write a post before I finished my next one - I need to stop with the neurotic re-reading and overediting so I can keep up, haha.

[A Red Panda]

LOL. I'm just a speed-reader and typer I suppose (Well, I'm definitely a speed-typist... if I'm not staring at a piece of paper and I'm motivated I putter alone at 130wpm.)

I totally hear what you're saying. I don't think that it's really any more related to one PD than another. I personally find it more relatable to the AsPD/NPD side of PDs and less relateable to AvPD due to the lack of understanding of others emotions.

I didn't think your post sounded like a lecture at all - I think this is a pretty interesting thread!

And I definitely agree that there's a looot with the AvPD. Like... I don't act like it. At all. But the AvPD traits totally dictate my brain, and I have formed my life around that.

I totally see you point about lack of empathy being related to AsPD and NPD. I don't want to beat this to death, but my point is that there are basically 2 kinds of "lack of empathy"... one is the NPS/AsPD total disregard for other living things, where those things are just tools to manipulate for personal gain and you have no feeling for them whatsoever. Then there's another type that literature also refers to as "lack of empathy", which is maybe more accurately described as difficulties with "theory of mind" (which is a term often used in reference ASD).

Personally I think they are two totally unique concepts which can both be roughly described as "lack of empathy". The first is something where the person just doesn't care at all about others (complete lack of empathy and sympathy) and the second is a byproduct of poor intuitive empathy.

Case in point: when I was maybe 12 (old enough to know better) I was in the car with my aunt and she said "does it kind of look like I have a mustache a little bit?" and I bluntly responded with something along the lines of "yes, it does". Shortly after I said that I was regretful and ashamed of myself - I realized that it was hurtful to say something like that so matter-of-factly and I had no intention of hurting her feelings. I was just speaking honestly in the moment and not even thinking of the emotional ramifications of other parties involved. As soon as I heard her response and thought about it a little more I felt guilty about it.

I'm not saying this one event is clinical proof of my alexithymia (poor impulse control would be another valid explanation), but it illustrates the difference between the two forms of "lack of empathy" I am trying to differentiate. I had no intention of hurting someone's feelings in the situation and I felt guilty and stupid for how I acted once I realized that it was really rude and insensitive to say. Someone with AsPD calculates this kind of statement to make someone else feel bad and someone with NPD calculates this kind of statement to make themselves feel superior to that person. In this situation I was unintentionally not taking other people's emotions into account because of an intuitive and non-malicious lack of empathy.

The term "lack of empathy" is used in reference to sociopaths and people with Asperger's - I think it's a totally different concept because sociopaths use it in a calculated way while people with Asperger's are using it innocently... like being manipulative vs. just not knowing any better.

Now am I lecturing?

[A Red Panda]

Originally Posted by nowheretohide

Case in point: when I was maybe 12 (old enough to know better) I was in the car with my aunt and she said "does it kind of look like I have a mustache a little bit?" and I bluntly responded with something along the lines of "yes, it does". Shortly after I said that I was regretful and ashamed of myself - I realized that it was hurtful to say something like that so matter-of-factly and I had no intention of hurting her feelings. I was just speaking honestly in the moment and not even thinking of the emotional ramifications of other parties involved. As soon as I heard her response and thought about it a little more I felt guilty about it.

See, I don't view that as a lack of empathy. That's an example of empathy, because you understood afterwards that it wasn't kind and you felt sorry for both the action and for making your aunt feel that way. That's not a lack of empathy, that's a lack of a filter. Which is totally normal for children.

To me, a lack of empathy means that there is no comprehension of other people's feelings. It doesn't necessary mean that someone does something maliciously - but there is a lack of comprehension. Hence why Aspergers, Autism, AsPD and NPD can all be described as lacking empathy. AsPD and NPD just have no desire to gain it. But the lack of empathy is the same.

So my interpretation is:
AsPD/NPD= lack of empathy + no desire to gain it.
Aspergers/Autism= lack of empathy + desire for it/unawareness that it exists.

It's still the same lack of empathy. There are just additional things which can influence it.

But you really didn't show a lack of empathy in that situation. You recognized immediately that you made an insensitive comment and tried to correct it - that's such a normal thing for kids! Some people talk/respond before they think, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're lacking empathy.

Maybe you are right and the missing piece is conscience or morality, with both situations having lack of empathy but sociopaths are also lacking conscience or morality.

So both do something hurtful and you tell the person with ASD (or they realize later) and they feel bad, while someone with NPD or sociopathy just wouldn't care or would not even understand why they should care.

[A Red Panda]

It's at least the way that I interpret it.

But wait!! From wikipedia:

"Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy: the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states. Our ability to empathize emotionally is supposed to be based on emotional contagion: being affected by another's emotional or arousal state.

Cognitive empathy: the capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state. The terms cognitive empathy and theory of mind are often used synonymously, but due to a lack of studies comparing theory of mind with types of empathy, it is unclear whether these are equivalent.

Psychopathy, schizophrenia, and narcissism have been associated with impairments in affective but not cognitive empathy, whereas bipolar disorder and borderline traits have been associated with deficits in cognitive but not affective empathy.

Autism spectrum disorders have been associated with various combinations, including deficits in cognitive empathy as well as deficits in both cognitive and affective empathy."