what if it IS spiritual...

So there is a thread going on about how MI is biological and spirituality has nothing to do with it.

Don't know... I refuse to think of myself as something dysfunctional bundle of neurons. I refuse to think of myself as broken chemical factory too... I always believed i have soul... even at times when highly doubted existence of deities... for some reason, it was my darkest times...

I mean if we accept this... why live? Who would care for bundle of neurons? Why not end it all, globally... if we are no more there is no suffering.

Of course this is extreme point of view... but each time I hear talk about bipolar genes....my mind goes this direction.... will they send us bundles of bad genes to some gulag so we don't taint the gene pole no more? What is the worth of human life if we are just constellation of atoms?

What if there is a spiritual aspect to suffering? What if we are simply broken/scarred/lost souls that need to find a way? What if we are unhappy because we ditched God and nations, political ideologies, DSM, sports teams and gambling on stock market is a poor substitute?

What if we just need bit more real struggle in our lifes... so we don't turn it inwards?

I admit... i don't know what to do with this existence. i enjoy luxury of self-pity. I talk to deities when I need something... I am not sure if i can be full time existentialist,but do be a part time one feels hypocritical. I sometimes get bout of wanting not to feel... and I am embarrassed for them.

Wow - food for thought.
I think this is a great topic, and look forward to what others have to add.
I do agree that the hardships push me into a more spiritual realm, and I do spend a lot of time trying to understand myself.
But I do think that BP is a biologigal thing

Venus, I definitely believe there is a spiritual aspect to each of us that longs for a connection to a deity. There is more to a person than physicality, we have minds that is interconnected to our spirits, and even to each other. It is only natural that we ask the question "why" of the deity and hope for an answer, as well as sharing our thoughts with one another to glean wisdom.

I believe there is a bipolar gene. I see it run through my family just like diabetes does. However, I also believe that we, as spiritual beings, need challenge and adversity in our lives to help the soul grow. I know I have grown from my experiences in life, many of which have been very bad.

I believe in something bigger than myself, not deities per say, but something. Although I feel no need to try and figure out what this bigger thing could be. I feel I have a soul, and most of the time I am otherwise content.

I personally don't really feel that bipolar effects this for me one way or the other, To me they are separate things. Bipolar to me is just an illness I have and is not connected to my spirituality. I don't feel a " but why, how" I just feel at peace with it.

I'm not a scared broken lost soul, I've found my way. I may at times get scared, but not broken. I may at times feel a little lost, but am not lost, because when the veil lifts I know exactly where and who I am. I feel like I have a compass inside me that always guides me in the right direction and brings me home.

I hope that makes sense.

I think for me, spirituality can help but it isn't going to "fix" bipolar.

One of my first thoughts when I was diagnosed was that there had to be a higher reason for this. The Universe must have a reason for me to have bipolar. I do believe in genetics but I don't think it is random. My grandfather did certain things when he was manic that were really good for people and I think in my way I have too. There might be some kind of spiritual evolution going on here.

I know the thread you're referring to and I posted there. The original posters sibling was implying that all she needed to do was pray and be cured - which is an insult to many mental illness suffers. He also implied she had evil forces going on. I did state though, it's great if a person is spiritual and it's a benefit.

My brother had bipolar disorder and he couldn't function without his medication. Yes I think it's biological but can be boosted with positive self care including enriching one's spirituality. I made the statement that lack spirituality didn't cause her mental illness but it can play a positve role. What if a person is a stellar spiritual person but still is bipolar?

Venus, I definitely believe there is a spiritual aspect to each of us that longs for a connection to a deity. There is more to a person than physicality, we have minds that is interconnected to our spirits, and even to each other. It is only natural that we ask the question "why" of the deity and hope for an answer, as well as sharing our thoughts with one another to glean wisdom.

I do believe that in a way I am very interconnected with the world. I do feed off people's emotions, both good and bad... it took me a long practice to learn to shield and I am still not very good at it... at times I can feel my whole protective aura to collapse.

so maybe my feelings are other's feelings?

I believe there is a bipolar gene. I see it run through my family just like diabetes does. However, I also believe that we, as spiritual beings, need challenge and adversity in our lives to help the soul grow. I know I have grown from my experiences in life, many of which have been very bad.

so what if... and this is a rhetorical question... everybody has the "the" gene or set of genes and it is certain situations that trigger it? It does not really matter, how we feel as a result is what matter to us...

I however do believe lack of higher purpose (which can be wordly...but it has to be something higher than living day to day) can cause symptoms that we identified as MI symptoms. Chronic emptiness or depression... what if,for some at least, it's just being disconnected?

I personally don't really feel that bipolar effects this for me one way or the other, To me they are separate things. Bipolar to me is just an illness I have and is not connected to my spirituality. I don't feel a " but why, how" I just feel at peace with it.

why I question this is because a lot of my experience could swept of as mere halucionation or manic state... in my "manic phase" i tend to astral project, have chakras opened... and be in this state of mind that is removed fromt the reality.

One of my first thoughts when I was diagnosed was that there had to be a higher reason for this. The Universe must have a reason for me to have bipolar. I do believe in genetics but I don't think it is random. My grandfather did certain things when he was manic that were really good for people and I think in my way I have too. There might be some kind of spiritual evolution going on here.

I believe there is something as hypersenstivity... certain people can pick on energies and vibes easier than others... why is that ... we cannot really tell.
i learned to tame my manic plans... no more saving the world.... but I still have plans. Local development, fairtrade, nationbuilding... we shall see

My brother had bipolar disorder and he couldn't function without his medication. Yes I think it's biological but can be boosted with positive self care including enriching one's spirituality. I made the statement that lack spirituality didn't cause her mental illness but it can play a positve role. What if a person is a stellar spiritual person but still is bipolar?

maybe there is a biological compent... but i refuse to believe that that's all there is to it.
and I do believe lack of purpose can be one of the triggers of underlying issues.

Well, I used the words "for me personally" because this is my experience, this is going to be very different from one person to the next. And different from one person to the next according to their beliefs. I know about astral projection and chakras, I have experimented with this in the past. However in my personal experience this is not something I experienced with mania. You may be experiencing this, and I would guess likely it is because of your spiritual beliefs.

I will never be able to believe that I was given Bipolar because I needed a bit more struggle, with all the struggle I have already endured by a young age. I have never walked away from my spirituality. I have never been worldly. I am in the world, not of the world. But again this seems true to me, but may not seem true to for you.

Spirituality is a very personal thing and no two peoples experience or understanding of it will be exactly alike. And I guess this is what makes it even more interesting and exciting.

I do agree humans can get a bit to caught up in other things in search of many things, these man made things, cannot sustain these particular needs.

Um, except that it doesn't assert that.
Thanks lynnP. You stated very well the point that jumped right out at me. That in fact the other thread is about CURING mental illness SOLELY by spirituality. No one even suggested that people are nothing but a bundle of neurons.

Both are interesting threads of course. The difference in subject matter is of utter significance though.

(Btw, yes Venus, I agree that we are more complex than any one facet. That's one thing I think we can all agree on no matter what our views on spirituality! Yea!)

I wanted to ask a question earlier but didn't want to sidetrack what seemed to be the main theme of the thread. That theme looks to be diluted enough that I feel safe in asking my question now.
Do most of you here believe that deities are inherent in spirituality?

I often wonder this myself, as many of my intense spiritual experiences have fit within Western medicine's definition of mania. This is the double-edged sword of Western medicine. On one hand, the treatments and interventions can help us in our day to day functioning. On the other hand, the same "treatments" can actually strip away our experiences as beings of spirit and hinder those intense connections. You could take two people experiencing the same intense, energized spiritual phenomena: put one in a modern civilization, the other in a more primitive setting. The one in the modern and allegedly "advanced" setting would be treated as mentally ill and people would work toward relieving them of their experience, while the one in the primitive setting would be sheltered and protected, ultimately being revered as a shaman or visionary and looked to for guidance. Their experience would not only be validated, but celebrated. Some days I wish we weren't quite so "advanced" and I could allow myself to reach that ecstatic connection and awareness again without being considered "noncompliant".

There are a couple of sites that talk more about this:

http://www.alternativedepressionther...awakening.html

and

http://www.reocities.com/HotSprings/1925/

I don't necessarily think this is the case. While there have certainly been times when my spirituality was centered around deities, both Christian and Pagan, there have been many more times when my focus would be simply on a higher plane of existence. Meditation and chakra work is highly spiritual, yet not particularly deity-focused. Connecting with animal or nature spirits is another situation that can be, but is not necessarily, deity-related. I believe there is a definite difference between being "spiritual" and being 'religious".

Thanks, that helps. Let me follow on with that for a sec and then maybe back to the original topic. Or what I think is the topic?
I don't know if we have the same concept of spirituality but in my concept there is no deity. To me deity implies creator. In the only religion I'm familiar with, the ultimate goal seems to me to be gaining acceptance from the deity in order to spend eternity singing the praises of the deity. I have a problem seeing that as a satisfactory end result of spiritual growth.
Back OT...as someone has pointed out already, there doesn't seem to be a conflict between believing a condition is organic/genetic and believing that spirituality and chemistry can both be used to treat the condition.
Seeing the possibility for spiritual and character growth in learning to cope with the condition or overcome it seems optimistic and wise.
Seeing it as a blessing from a deity as an opportunity to grow spiritually seems like something other than optimistic.
BTW I'd be interested in hearing something about these astral projections and how they may have helped.
And to VenusHalley: if I've misunderstood your point or steered this thread off the track you intended feel free to say so and I'll back off.

I read that assertions elsewhere, including blogs right here in psychcentral (thoughts are biochemical process, blah blah blah, no control...).


and as for solely spiritual cure... my backup plan is India. Not sure if it's the wisest plan... but if I ever lose that inner peace of mine, I am gonna seek it somewhere by Gange river. Not saying everybody should do it...
Part of this is blatant dismissal of spiritual aspect in the current MH system (note i live in the Bloc and our system is even more screwed up).

I don't have a T or a pdoc at the moment... I always wonder though, what would such person say if i causally commented on their aura being real off today or me clutching on crystal because "this place has suck sucky energy"...
would probably not work..

I think if it were in a casual, conversational way that even a staunch pdoc may not be too quick to throw antipsychotics at you. I'm not sure how it is there in Eastern Europe, but here in the US there has been a shift to a more holistic outlook by some mental health professionals. Some may find auras and crystals a bit eccentric, but not particularly a sign of illness.

That being said...if it is in a more intense way: seeing visions, communicating directly to diety, dancing ecstatically like a whirling dervish...that may turn some psychiatric heads and bring out the prescription pads. That's the part of my "manic" spirituality that I so desperately miss. Makes me wonder how many potential "visionaries" are being suppressed by modern medicine. If Joan of Arc were alive today, she would be heavily medicated, and on some level, I find that very sad.

For me my religion/spirituality run hand-in-hand with my mood. When I am depressed I am completely atheist and need evidence for everything such as Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and "God". I am the ultimate realist. This leads me to being even more depressed since I find it hard to see a point in life as an atheist.
But on the opposite end of the spectrum when I enter into an hypo-manic/manic phase I become extremely spiritual, needing no evidence to believe all kinds of things. I become extremely interested in "God" and why I am here on this earth. During these times I do not believe that God created the universe. I believe that God IS the universe.
I just wish my religious views would stay constant and not change right along with my moods so I could find something to have consistent hope in.

This is a beautiful thread and exactly what my heart's been aching to discuss since my own manic breakdown almost two years ago. Please forgive what may seem like infantile inquisitiveness or vain ignorance because I often feel like an imposter who has been labeled bipolar, when I actually feel like saying that I (metaphorically) shed my emotional and spiritual snake skin for a brighter perspective on things. Suffice it to say, after being put on Seroquel once a night (after trying a great many other concoctions), my mania has all together vanished. This pill which tames all the paranoia and sleepless nights has also made direct communication with "God", my higher self, and bouts with the red devil himself a thing of the past. Any hypersensitivity to nature, electromagnetic fields and the emotions of others has been considerably suppressed. I was far-sighted when I was manic, finding anything to be symbolic in nature and worth a thought. Analyzing the way the leaves swayed to communicate the wondrous quality of life on earth was 1,000x more important than checking my email. I sometimes long for a return to this extreme state of mindfulness.

I could write a dissertation on my days before, during and after my hospital stay but I only wanted to underline some of your response points, Venus. We are very alike, I feel. I also think that every person possibly carries the "gene" for bipolar disorder. It's simply waiting for the right triggers. I come from a very fractured background of people with depression, not mania. A mixed episode was the very last thing anyone thought would pop up in me. To the point, I think that with the right mixture of stress, insomnia, low self-esteem (and maybe a specific moon phase, full moon in my case) things can get ugly. Your body can stop functioning "normally" and throw in the towel with a nasty chemical imbalance.

Lack of a higher purpose, to me, is a brilliant reason to have a breakdown. Have a lovely job but don't feel fulfilled? Time to straighten up and look in that very plain mirror, take a long shower in water you can't control the temperature of, and slowly recite your morning feelings to a nurse. For westerners, there's the remedy...I'd have rather taken a trip to Nepal and sat on mountainside each morning before working in an orphanage. I think our bodies strive for meaningful work and, if not meaningful, tough labor once in a while, not all that intangible jibber jabber we do on the computer.

Personally, I never felt more alive and connected to the universe than during hypomania, before and after inpatient. I was more aware of myself and my surroundings than I had ever been. It was enlightenment to me (although I don't discount the power of meditation in the slightest). I actually aspire to feel as powerfully in tune when I commit to meditation in the future. So, for those who have experienced some sort of awakening during mania, let's not be afraid to share stories. "Madness" can be a wonderful thing if you interpret it so.
-Fourth year psych major at UCSC

I think you're not getting the right answers because you're asking the wrong questions Venus.

That being said...if it is in a more intense way: seeing visions, communicating directly to diety, dancing ecstatically like a whirling dervish...that may turn some psychiatric heads and bring out the prescription pads. That's the part of my "manic" spirituality that I so desperately miss. Makes me wonder how many potential "visionaries" are being suppressed by modern medicine. If Joan of Arc were alive today, she would be heavily medicated, and on some level, I find that very sad.

Modern times do no like visionaires... I like to joke about who is more delusional... if me with my auras and chakras and crystals and deities... or somebody who takes a loan to buy a new iPad because they feel the need it. If I am crazy for believing and having my visions than somebody who believes pre-election promises of whoever


This is a beautiful thread and exactly what my heart's been aching to discuss since my own manic breakdown almost two years ago. Please forgive what may seem like infantile inquisitiveness or vain ignorance because I often feel like an imposter who has been labeled bipolar, when I actually feel like saying that I (metaphorically) shed my emotional and spiritual snake skin for a brighter perspective on things. Suffice it to say, after being put on Seroquel once a night (after trying a great many other concoctions), my mania has all together vanished. This pill which tames all the paranoia and sleepless nights has also made direct communication with "God", my higher self, and bouts with the red devil himself a thing of the past. Any hypersensitivity to nature, electromagnetic fields and the emotions of others has been considerably suppressed. I was far-sighted when I was manic, finding anything to be symbolic in nature and worth a thought. Analyzing the way the leaves swayed to communicate the wondrous quality of life on earth was 1,000x more important than checking my email. I sometimes long for a return to this extreme state of mindfulness.


I also wonder if I am simply not just some... kinda of medium. Maybe I am getting lost telepathic messages or something. Maybe I react to something in the air... who knows. There is no way to proof it either way.

Lack of a higher purpose, to me, is a brilliant reason to have a breakdown. Have a lovely job but don't feel fulfilled? Time to straighten up and look in that very plain mirror, take a long shower in water you can't control the temperature of, and slowly recite your morning feelings to a nurse. For westerners, there's the remedy...I'd have rather taken a trip to Nepal and sat on mountainside each morning before working in an orphanage. I think our bodies strive for meaningful work and, if not meaningful, tough labor once in a while, not all that intangible jibber jabber we do on the computer.


I agree with this. I do believe we do need a purpose to feel happy... actually feeling happy and satisfied is a mere side-effect and afterthought... purpose is what I seek.


I think you're not getting the right answers because you're asking the wrong questions Venus.


But what would the "right" questions be?

...who is asking the question?

laureofanne - I enjoyed reading your post that contained this paragraph. It reminded me of my brother who was bipolar and some funny times when he was manic. One time it was late fall and cold outside - he bought this replica old model convertible and usually people don't ride with the top down when it's cold. He also bought the same day a fur jacket and I remember him riding down the main street looking proud as a peacock with the top down and his fur coat on..smiling ear to ear lol. My brother was also an artist and did his best work when he was manic.

In regards to your paragraph, I've often wondered if there was less mental illness in the days before modern conveniences. When we were busy all day fending for food just to survive and there wasn't time to sit and ponder anything. Think of how animals act when they're bored - they develop anxiety and pick at themselves...they get depressed. If they laid around all day they wouldn't eat. Just a thought.

Personally, I don't feel there is a spiritual link. I went through a spiritual phase once, I was pagan for a few years, but am now an atheist as well as a skeptic.

I do believe all the magical, spiritual experiences I experienced was just my untreated bipolar rearing it's huge head into my world. It was psychosis, nothing more.

I also accept that some people benefit from some belief in something that is unknown like God. I just can't anymore. The current evidence shows me no reason for me to so until it does, if ever, I will remain unconvinced.

Love this thread. Everyone’s ideas are so well-thought-out and interesting. Lots to think about.

As for me, I believe God has written eternity in our souls; that’s why we’re always looking for something more. We can’t separate the physical from the spiritual; they are intertwined. I agree that we’re not just bundles of neurons. We are creatures of *infinite value*.

So many questions. So many different points of view. What if God didn’t just leave us to wonder? What if deity left behind a road map that gives us the answers we’re looking for? What if some things are real, but they are not truth?

I believe if you keep seeking, Venus, you will find the answers you’re looking for. Trust yourself. I think you’re onto something.

You can PM me any time if you want to discuss further.

Thanks again for posting this!