why is psychiatry just like armed interventions

I posted this in my social group... but maybe I can post it here too.

yes I am controversial.


and maybe far-fetched

though not that much


proceed at your own risk


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I came across a blog of psychiatry defender. Apparently people are anti-psychiatry because they are scared. And uninformed. Or scientologists. Psychiatry is AWESOME. If somebody said they been harmed by it, but it saves lives and the harmed person is exception... *

well, when NATO bombed Kosovo, they claim they "saved lives". They bombed convoy with refugese or Chinese embassy. Well... "we are very sorry, but our bombs are precise otherwise". It could be the enemy used human shields. JUst like some time later in Libya. Bombing suspicious targets? ...it had to be done.

Just like pharma companies are really sorry people killed themselves on their meds, BUT they help others and here are the stastics... Sorry for doing things to you against your will, but it was necessary (just like bombing of TV stations).

The problem is not that bad things happen. The problem is that people treat it as "oh well, bad things happen" and "sorry, BUT".

Maybe turning to psychiatry to restore your sanity is just like turning to superpower to bomb your country to preserve peace. May work on the long run, but it IS gonna be messy and if it doesn't work out, nobody will care. They may learn for the future, but what will that be to you?

I don't believe doctors or politicians care. Maybe out of self-preservation. If you cared for every single collateral damage... you cannot be head of NATO. Same goes for psychiatrists (only chicks may want to sleep with you if you tell them you are a soldier... psychiatrist? not such turn on).

I am not scientologist or pacifist. I see a value in both psychiatry and armed interventions... but I am not gonna be defending neither on bad bombs and bad drugs (tbh... I think are bombs are slightly more precise in hitting the target then newest psychmeds when it comes to targeting the right part of brain). Both can go wrong and be a mess. And we should not silent people talking about it, because "it saves lifes". I think both fields need more informed choice. And less believe in how absolutelly right we are.


* just like hawks defending wars of choice call their opponents wusses, communists, fascist, damn hippies.

It is a good analogy. And I think it is very, very important that everyone be an informed patient regardless if they have mental illness or physical illness or no illness at all. Because tomorrow you may have something and a doctor will give you a prescription.

The most important part of being a patient in the world is to be a responsible patient. And that means to stay informed. When the doctor says "you need to take this medicine" the first thing you should do is not go to the pharmacy and fill the prescription, but do your research. In the US it is the law that they must list every side effect, even if it effected one person. But the pharmaceutical companies still get sued because someone dies of a listed side effect. It happens all the time.

Don't just blindly trust what the doctor says about medicine, learn for yourself.

I'm sorry I agree with you dark heart. Especially considering the very point I am at I am pregnant and as much as I would like no medications going into my baby I am on the lowest dose of seroquil that atleast makes it to where I can sleep. No mood stabilizers which of course are most definetly needed but I am VERY VERY informed on side effects, very very scared of what could happen with my daughter etc. It was a choice I had to make on my own. Yes there was input from my therapist and my prescribing Dr however the choice was mine. I had to make it and honestly I don't know if I've made the right choice or not but I think more than anything for me at this point is that I know I studied, read and know....

Very well said all. I think psychiatry is a little well a good bit more accurate than armed intervention or as I would say invasion. Psychiatry has helped more people than it has harmed I would imagine where as blowing up things does little good for anyone. Just my .02

Although busting stuff up.... Now that feels good sometimes

I'm not sure if psychiatry has helped more than harmed, I think it might be a bit of a balancing act. Part of the problem is that psychiatrists neglect to inform, and a lot of them also present you with something that is not truth but theory, only they forget to tell you that part.

It is up to us to do own own leg work, however it is up to psychiatrist to be truthful, honest, and act with dignity and respect. There just isn't one path to wellness, and they know this, and if they don't they should.

The statistics behind Ad's alone speaks for itself. I have always found it really interesting when I have had a drug pushed on me by a psychiatrist and told how well it works for bipolar, I should be feeling fine in no time. If we still do not even know the exact cause of Bipolar or exactly where the brain is going "wrong" what exactly are we targeting? Yes it seems like a bit of a shot in the dark.

It's all a shot in the dark with psychiatry for the most part but for me somehow they seem to be at least shooting in the vicinity. Not saying its perfect and that I have had some worse times thanks to drugs but at least my doc is like opps my bad

Yes Clinte they can and do help sometimes ( eh, my dr's never said my bad ), but what I am saying is it's more about what they don't tell you than what they do. I have yet to have a psychiatrist, tell me that the chemical theory in Bipolar is just that a theory, they often present it as fact. It might be an accepted theory, but it's still a theory. I think it's pretty important for Pdocs not to spread misinformation, they do have more power and authority in the dr. patient relationship, they need to use that wisely.

The other thing is, how many people are sitting in a pdocs office, told they are Bipolar and sent out of the office with a script and not much more of an explanation than that. I remember quite well how my diagnoses went down. If I was lucky I might have got a a simple one or two paragraph photocopied sheet very vaguely explaining the illness.

If you got dx'd with a physical disease, one that would effect the rest of your life, and one that required a lot of life changes and monitoring, I think you would be offered information before you walked out the door with your new pills. We see posts here all the time with new dx's and they have been given little info let alone for a big part even been told why that dx was made.

There are some I am sure who do not take this route in patient care, but it is common enough that I agree it needs to be put out there.

Oh I absolutely agree with you there. The first time mine just said your bipolar rapid cycleing without much more than that it took me a few appointments to have the courage to ask him why and what it meant. So I'm defiantly picking up what your putting down.

There is Clinton Boullavard and statue in Pristina, Kosovo. No kidding. Bosnia has been saved by well... armed intervetion and many think if West had guts earlier, it would save a lot of lives. I will not go into details... but many will claim a benefit in armed interventions too.

so spoketh hippie with several semmesters in strategic studies

This is true for a lot of medical practice, right now. I've heard that's why they call it "practice." But I'll tell you a secret. And I go with what I know. Diabetes, of course. But, most GP have absolutely no clue about diabetes. None. They follow along with what they read or have written somewhere. But, in truth, they are terrified of it and that's only type 2 diabetes. If you have type 1 diabetes (especially if you're an adult) most GP don't even consider you may have it and try to re-diagnose you as type 2. I'm better at diagnosing diabetes vs. pre-diabetes (and this is not mania talking,) and these are diagnosis that rely on labs with absolutely qualifying numbers.

It's absolutely terrifying mostly because there is a whole generation of folks who think doctors really know their stuff and go by what they say no matter what.

And, even with that, there is so much research. It isn't as understood as you think. Even the effects of diet and exercise aren't understood. And, what I'm learning, is that food is exactly like medicine. It effects everyone's body chemestry differently and people even get side effects from food that others won't. Our minds and bodies are so complex that no doctor should tell you "this will absolutely work," the moment you hear that is the instant you think "there is a good chance this doctor has no idea what they are talking about."

PS: I'm super glad you're back Anika!

Love the analogy Venus I agree that Dr's shouldn't act like their words are the gospel truth... Like I said in a previous thread, I refuse to take meds that are manufactured for other illnesses, to treat mine which a dr doesnt even understand... HB's post about her ex's comments on bp and forums reminded me that pdocs only see us as a list of symptoms. They cant reconcile the person AND the bp to formulate the whole image...

thanks DH, glad to be back tooo!!!!

I totally agree, and that's the thing a GP can't know everything, although Diabetes is huge, they should know because of this very fact. But they send you to a specialist, a diabetes centre etc.... specialized medicine, which is great, if the specialized people know their stuff.

So here's the problem, the Pdoc is specialized, that's why you got sent their instead of a GP handling this disorder. I understand that it isn't well understood, time for Pdocs to admit that as well. But I think they worry if they do, they a) loose authority, b) Have less "compliance" from patients and haha c) have to open their minds a little.

I swear I know more about a lot of the meds, and about bipolar cycling than my Pdoc, and that's not a manic moment either. He is rated the worst one in my city.. so I'll give him that.

Trippin, totally they can't see you as a whole person, so you will not be offered treatment that takes your whole being into account.

What's interesting is a lot of medicine focuses on less invasive treatment first...and takes the whole being into account. This is not the west's typical treatment model though, or a lot of other places sadly either.

I watched a documentary on the elderly and yoga for the hands, they all had terrible arthritis that was crippling. The yoga therapy for their hands left them able to move them, and use them, gaining mobility and a lot less pain, the results were huge. The western treatment we use for the elderly basically focuses on pain management, opioids, NSAIDS, and other drugs, throw in some heat and some ice, and maybe a little therapy... boom your done.

My bf has an autoimmune disease that creates a lot of inflammation and chronic pain. They don't know much about it, but he is only offered prednisone in high doses, methotrexate ( used for chemo, makes him sick for weeks ) and narcotics for pain, that's about it, no mention of a diet the rules out inflammitory foods, or any other type of therapy. Even I can see the problems with this.

ok end rant

See, I am in total agreement that there are other treatments that are better. But due to society it is closed off.

Along the same lines as the yoga treatment, I used to do Taoist Tai Chi with the Tai Chi society. It was amazing how healing it was for people. There was a woman who had been doing it for many years. When she started she was wheelchair bound and told she would never walk again. But, somehow, she walking thanks to Tai Chi. And she started out only being able to do the hand motions. I mean, that's powerful stuff.

The key to not having psychiatric treatment be like an armed intervention is having a good doctor. A bad doctor is a total disaster; a good doctor can do a whole lot for you and can change your life for the better. You can tell that I have had both good and bad experiences!

I had an amazing pdoc once, I agree they are out there, hard to find tho. My first pdoc was awesome, he spent a lot of time with me, exposed me to mindfulness, suggested yoga and Tai Chi ( yup DH that's a great one ) he offered me many diff routes to wellness. When my Gp's kept failing to find the cause of my physical illness, he paid and sent me to natruropath, he offered to pay for light therapy at one point. He also did use meds, but he he seemed more reluctant to rely on meds alone. He taught me self acceptance, that I wasn't powerless etc. But he retired.

But what is worrisome is what might have happened to me if I had not had him this first go around, and winded up with the one I have now the first time. I think I'd be in a really bad spot.

The first good doctor that I ever had (I have had a total of 4 by now, counting the impressive on-call doctor I saw a few days ago) suggested that I go to bed at 10PM (instead of going to bed much later and without a set schedule). Going to bed at 10PM was the single most important non-pharmacological step to my wellness. My current doctor prefers non-pharmacological treatments for anxiety if they are available - he recommends exhausting them first, before taking benzos. I went further (I posted about it) - I actually compared the effectiveness of Klonopin versus cardiovascular exercise and exercise beat Klonopin!

And I loved that post Hamster, I thought it was a very good exercise. Especially with anxiety, it can be managed very well with no meds.

This is my third Pdoc, I haven't even seen him since about January aside from one phone call, and one very brief visit. He would not help me even ween off any meds out of the six he had me on, and his sole reason was that I was Bipolar 1, despite whatever other traits I have as a human. I would see him more, but he really cannot offer me anything. And I am in a situation with healthcare here where I cannot just easily make a switch in pdocs. I don't have a real need for one at the moment either, knock on wood.

the point was though... there are armed interventions that *do* save the day. I am a Grotius babe

just like a psychiatrist can help you. But bad psychiatrists, or bad strategists... will never admit their mistakes. ANd in the end it will be you fault in their eyes. You are the crazy. You are the one that lives in sketch place.

Problem is, not many people see value in post-modernism and admitting, we don't know everything. Especially about others. Psychiatrist can know how to recite DSM when awoken in the middle of the night... but they don't know you. Strategists know strategies that would work against people like them... but seems they never know the enemy really.

In the end, you don't matter to them all that much. And they don't always know better. You should have enough self-love to matter to yourself.

No, if a doctor is good, you matter to them. A good doctor cares for you. Only a caring doctor would problem-solve your situation to discover an untapped resource - regularly scheduled sleep. Why would he use his brain power to help me if he did not care? He even suggested that I apply for disability and filled out the paperwork when I lost my job - it did not occur to me. He cared enough to suggest that I seek free care from the county's mental health office when it became hard for me to afford his fees out-of-pocket (when I lost my insurance with the job). As a result, he lost me as a patient. Lost the income stream. What is more caring? What else would you expect from him? How else could he have shown that I mattered to him?

It was much cheaper for me to get a 3-month supply of meds through a mail-order pharmacy than to go to a regular pharmacy every month. He did not want me to have more than a month's worth of medication on hand because of history of suicidal impulsivity, so he went an extra mile: allowed me to order through the mail but kept the medications in his office, giving me portions every month. It was not his job to worry about my monetary expenditures nor to keep my meds but he did it for me.

Non-psychiatric advice he gave me was always spot on. He reviewed everything that I was taking, including supplements, and decided that I need Vitamin D for general health. He told me to run it by the GP, though. She agreed with him, so I now take Vit D. But it was not his job - it was her job to review everything that I was taking. The GP did not do her job. Likewise, he recommended a high-protein carb-resctricted diet, but wanted me to run it by my endocrinologist first. What did the endocrinologist say? Eat a high-protein carb-restricted diet. So now I know that he keeps abreast of research outside of psychiatry. And that's what I want: a doctor with good general knowledge that goes beyond psychiatry. The last doctor that I saw was on-call. He prescribed Amitriptyline for me (he admitted that it was his first prescription for Amitriptyline - a very old drug - in 10 years), expressing hope that the drug would kill two birds for me - help with sleep and prevent migraines. This is the kind of thinking I am looking for: knowledge in areas outside psychiatry - in my case, in neurology.

Yes, if a doctor is good, you do matter to them. I know this. I work with many different doctors (72 at the moment,) and I can tell the difference between those that are the really good doctors and those that just see their patients, just in the brief communications through me (I sort all the orders and triage all the patients with diabetes.)

But, look at this also. this follows the lines of being a good patient.
http://psychcentral.com/news/2012/09...ity/45225.html

People put authority in places where it often shouldn't be, and that's a lot like politics and warfare, too.

I guess I am sometimes too cynical.

I was being more general though. I actually do believe there are good people in the system... but overall, the thing sucks. Good people happen. They are not created or encouraged by the system.

Exactly. You can't create someone who is good. That's a talent and an ability or maybe a virtue that people create in themselves through their own experience.

I just feel from the things you say, Venus, it isn't that you're too cynical. I think maybe you've seen some things in real life that other of us have only experienced by reading or watching the news. But I find your views very valid and it is good that you can look at things and find good and bad in them. And your experience is very valid to us because you can see things in ways we can't. I like your topics. They start good conversation.

In outpatient setting in the States, I have had 10 doctors, 5 of whom have been good (I am counting two on-call doctors). This is more than just "happening". Out of 3 doctors in the current county's mental health office, all 3 have been excellent. This is clearly not a coincidence. Not happening.

Happening cannot get you 3 out of 3.

And I have high standards. And they meet them. I mean, the last doctor was purely an on-call doctor seeing me purely to help me with sleep. But he went through my whole choice of medications to replace Geodon and ranked my options for me, which was exactly what I needed. And he said he would leave copious notes for my regular doctor in the chart. Clearly someone going beyond the call of duty, which was prescribing a sleeping aid. Nor was it his job to care about my migraines, but he did! What else can you possibly expect from an on-call doctor?