Some days I wish people would just get it!

Thank-you faerie_moon_x for the links to other free site for our family.

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Thanks, I think you might be right. I haven't really looked into what
the good doctors have to say about sleep, but it certainly could be
part of cognitive difficulties, in my view. And it is something to think
about, for sure.

I have the same symptoms even on days when I sleep and feel rested. I think the point is that everyone is at a different point on a line, but being aware that what is happening is very real will give you the chance towards healing instead of ignoring it.

Even if it is sleep or meds for you right now, there is no harm in being educated that cognitive dysfunction is a real part of the illness, one that can be very damaging if left alone, but easily treated without meds through mental exercises.

If you have the symptoms all the time, no matter mood or sleep, I would really look into if it's not something else.

This certainly is not typical symptoms...

Thanks, Venus, but there isn't anything else to be found at this point.

My problems vary daily, but they are always there. Some days they are better and others worse. That's why, even like right now when I feel completely fine and stable, I still can't write (as an example,) because my cognition is low.

As I said, everyone is at a different point on the line. Some better, some worse.

I remember having sleep issues since I've been a young teenager. I generally over-sleep and when I'm awake I almost always feel tired. I wasn't referring to occasionally getting restful sleep but an overarching pattern of "bad sleep" throughout my life.

It's known that depression can cause a person to oversleep and that mania can reduce the amount of sleep that one gets. At one point I'd theorized that part of bipolar disorder was a neurological sleep disorder since it seemed like commonplace that members here are often taking something to aide in sleep. Lack of overall restful sleep can also mimic ADD/ADHD. If sleep damages cognition, then it would make sense that even when you have a restful night of sleep the residue from the bad nights would still effect you despite how well rested you feel.

They also report that psychotic breaks can deteriorate cognition, too.

I hope you're able to find a therapist, soon, who can give you some insight on this problem.

I wanted to add this link to this topic because, I stumbled across it by accident. I think it was Mimi who said too bad they can't do scans and only observe us. But, this is quite shocking. They can scan us.
Bipolar Brain Imaging | SHARING BIPOLAR

Not just us with bipolar, but more like ADHD and Obsessive Compulive disorder. But, according to the article, although imaging shows differences in the brain it's not accepted for diagnosing. What? Why? Well, I guess because they are still researching, but it's important research. Very, very important.

Also, I found this rather interesting:
Why is this interesting? Because of the also resent reserch showing that bipolar, depression, ADHD, autism, and schizophrenia share issues with a common gene structure.

I for one hope this research continues. Imagine how much easier our lives would be if we could just go into a MRI and blood test and get a diagnosis. No more guessing.

Yes, thank you for posting this Faerie. It is true that they are using scans more and more, especially in research. Unfortunately it isn't quite a standard diagnostic tool. I think a lot of it has to do with cost.

As I said in another thread regarding my family history and mental health questions, my abnormal MRI's and other test results parallel my mother's. So there IS a brain disease process going on, just not a definite diagnosis.( for me and mom)

Up until the imaging tests became available as a diagnostic tool in medicine these patients would typically present with symptoms that look like some vague psychiatric disease. I wonder how many people with a huge MI label are out there who may actually have brains that are diseased?

And forgive me Faerie if I am wrong, but didn't you mention a question your Dr.s had at one point about you possibly having MS?

MS is a fine example of a disease that often presents with symptoms that can easily be wrongly Dx.d with a psychiatric label

I hate MRIs (like seriously freaks me out,) but I would allow them to scan me to find answers to help everyone else.

Oh and I want to point out that none of this research is conclusive. I disagree entirely with a statement from the above posted link that lithium restores grey matter in the brain. That is absolute nonsense. I am stunned that that was published. Lithium is effective in a number of illnesses but there is absolutely no proof that it restores grey matter!

That study with lithium was done 12 years ago with ten people. That is not science. As far as I am concerned, it only showed that lithium was effective in controlling a disease process and symptoms.

Fairie,

I want to share how I've been solving the problem with parking.

I remember all kinds of stories told to me by all kinds of people throughout my life, but I cannot remember where I parked the car several hours ago.

After trying all sorts of approaches, I finally figured it out. I park as far away as possible. This is because people generally try to park near the destination, so the parking spots that are far away are not taken. At work, I always park on the top floor of the parking garage, as far as possible from the elevator/stairs I take in order to get out of the parking structure. It does not even cost me any time!!! because I spend less "extra" time driving to the top floor than I used to spend looking for the car back when I tried to park in the first open spot. Because the first open spot is something random and I could not attach any significance to it in my brain. The spot that is farthest away is NOT random so I know how to find it.

I am now taking the approach further. If I need to park near a store, I look for the spot that is farthest away from the store. It also helps, health-wise, by causing me to walk more. Finally, since I am a clumsy driver, I prefer parking in deserted areas where I cannot damage the next car.

Thanks, Hamster! Tips like this are always useful.

I am lucky in I can find my car pretty okay. I lose things like my purse. I now have a designated spot for purse, phone, keys, work badge. All together. I have to keep them there every day. I've been doing it for a few months now and so far it's helping. Except I can put them where they belong and still not find them at times. (It's like my brain has a black hole. I can look right at something and not see it." I get everything in Neon Pink. Pink Purse. Pink Lunch Bag. Pink Phone Case. This stands out against most things because I have so many boys in my house. And I like pink so it's okay for me. Just needs a pink key chain and I'll be okay. Once I was half way to the highway and drove all the way home because I couldn't find my phone. It was sitting right in the middle of a black seat, not covered. But, I couldn't see it....

Another example, I have bright pink toothbrush because I can't see with my glasses off. But I can see colors. So, pink = me. Pink shampoo bottle. LOL. (But blindness without glasses is another story.)

With all this discussion about cognition, I have a question. Have any of you heard of the ability to retrain our brains to have our serotonin neurotransmitters be more effective? My therapist tells me that there is research out there that we can retrain our brains to be more positive. I don't know much about the research, but I do know that those of us with either bipolar or despressive disorder brains have one or two neurotransmitters that are short instead of long, as they should be, hence the need for anti-depressants that provide serotonin.
Lots of science here, but I find it interesting that my therapist has shared her findings. She is a Harvard graduate, so I won't question her credentials. Meanwhile, I will be checking on this research.
I questioned the fact that my problems/differences or whatever you want to call them, appear to be hereditary since I have identified problems with both parents, but she says research proves improvement.
Now the how, I think that you are just supposed to practice positive thoughts...yes, this is the tough part!
I will keep exploring this in therapy, or maybe debunking this, but I'll let you know the outcomes.
Bluemountains

I hadn't heard this. It is interesting.

Oddly, there is a Canadian study showing that "the power of positive thinking" doesn't work out for everyone. What they found out is that some people need to express that negativity, and thinking positively doesn't turn things around but makes them feel worse.

I wasn't able to find the original article, but here's a recent one that discusses it.

Trigger! Description of a recent suicide appears in this link.
Self-Help Suicides and the Danger of Positive Thinking - Businessweek

Either way, it would be interesting to see more research on the whole subject.

I've never been part of any study, but I'm defnitly part of the group that finds positive thinking detrimental.

I need to be able to purge the negativity, and that means embracing it to a certain extent...

I tried the positive thinking route and it felt inauthentic, and actually magnified the depression because in my mind, I was lying to myself and reminding myself of everyting that was wrong...

Just thought I'd share from this side of the coin

****Could be a trigger for negative behaviors***

Thanks for sharing Faerie. I did find some information that "thinking" your way to happiness does not work for those who are clinically depressed and I think this is the kind that goes with bp.
The article was interesting. I remember a similar happening years ago with a man who attended several of our education conferences as a motivational speaker. He made you feel like you could conquer the world. Like the people in the article, he committed suicide.
Oops, I'd better put a trigger warning!

I think you have to think of it as a reward system. If I get through a hard patch, Ill rationalize the success and tell myself I can keep improving. If I try to apply it during an episode it's a moot point. During episodes I try to apply coping mechanisms that don't necessarily need me to think positively. Sometimes I think that thinking positively sets you up for failure because your putting expectations on yourself that you can't meet.

Yeah, it makes me wonder if maybe dealing with negative thinking actually strengthens us somehow in some way. For example, it's like we have an immune system to failure. When something goes wrong, maybe it's not quite the shock to our system as it is with someone who lives the "as long as I think positively everything will work out" mentallity.... Just a random idea I just had.

Of course, it doesn't always work out that way, either.

Yes, Confused and Faerie, I completely understand what each of you are saying. Obviously, this has been on my mind since my therapy session.
I wish my t had never mentioned this path because I have this need to please, even if it is myself, so I feel even more negative because I cannot find a way to think positive and heal myself-a simplistic summary, but you know what I mean.
The image created in my mind with this thinking are those of tv preachers who put out the message that if you buy in, you are healed-and, a bit of money might make it better! In the article that Faerie posted, a pdoc stated something along the lines that some of us need to have our negative thoughts. I feel much more comfortable with this line of thinking.

Faerie, I am sorry we have moved so far from your original post about cognition. I do appreciate, though, that you have allowed me to process my thoughts during the thread, and, btw, I still believe that cognition is affected by mental disorders as well as prescribed drugs


Bluemountains

I really don't care if my threads go off the rails, LOL. I mean, we all have racing thoughts and jump around from one idea to the next. I'd rather start a thread that turns into a conversation that helps someone than have it die out while that someone sits silently, not sure how to start a new question.

I'm right there with you, though. I don't like happy puppy rainbow therapy. That's what I call it. Because, really, life is very complex. And, what works for one may not work for everyone. So, I say it's okay to try that strategy, but if it's not working it's not working and don't beat yourself up about it! Try something else.

My understanding is that these cognitive issues, in bipolar, are present only during episodes, not as a continuing, constant problem. Which is to say, as everything in bipolar (per criteria), symptoms appear only in the context of episodes (for example, slow/dulled cognition during depressive episodes, easily distracted during a hypomanic or manic episode).

I think all the cognitive issues can be present regardless of where on the Bipolar "Tilt O whirl" you might happen to be today tomorrow or next week.

It's obvious that medications can cause problems
It's obvious lack of sleep can cause them.

Person A's "stable" may be miles apart from person B's

I could go on and on.. But you get my drift