[lunaticfringe]

Hey guys,

As some of you may have read in my last post, I've recently been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. I have done quite a bit of research online and I know the DSM criteria and whatnot, but I'm curious to hear about other's experience as much as I can. I have a really hard time trusting mental health professionals or doctors in general and am not currently on meds. I am having a hard time believing my diagnosis and I want to know if I can relate to anyone.

So, if you have schizoaffective, what is it personally like for you? Try to be as descriptive about your mindset/perspective as possible.

And let me know if you have any questions for me. I have a hard time with memory and recognizing symptoms within myself so I didn't really list any here.

I have schizoaffective disorder. Right now I'm on meds and basically functioning as a person without schizoaffective disorder. Off meds I have psychotic episodes including auditory and visual hallucinations. I hear voices talking about me and my actions, and sometimes they tell me to do things. Frequently they say nonsense things like "yellow cup eated red river riots." The visual hallucinations can be scary. During my last psychotic episode I hallucinated gremlins attacking me, and I believed they were taking over my brain, controlling my thoughts and whatnot. I see shadows and lights moving when they shouldn't be.
I have delusions too, which I think are 100% real until I get out of the psychosis and get some therapy. Some of the ones I've had in the past include thinking I was the savior of all the dogs that died from abuse/neglect, everybody else was an alien that was going to abduct me and perform experiments on me, that there was a magnet in my foot controlling my moods (major earthquakes would make me manic/depressed depending on where they were), and there was cyanide in all my food.
I get manic too. It feels like I'm on meth, but for weeks instead of hours. I don't sleep, my mind is racing, colors feel a thousand times more vibrant, and my mind just goes to sex. When depressed my mind goes to death/suicide, but when manic, my mind goes to sex all the time. My depressions aren't really a sadness, just like a lack of energy and will to do anything.

[lunaticfringe]

Originally Posted by escapeartist

I have schizoaffective disorder. Right now I'm on meds and basically functioning as a person without schizoaffective disorder. Off meds I have psychotic episodes including auditory and visual hallucinations. I hear voices talking about me and my actions, and sometimes they tell me to do things. Frequently they say nonsense things like "yellow cup eated red river riots." The visual hallucinations can be scary. During my last psychotic episode I hallucinated gremlins attacking me, and I believed they were taking over my brain, controlling my thoughts and whatnot. I see shadows and lights moving when they shouldn't be.
I have delusions too, which I think are 100% real until I get out of the psychosis and get some therapy. Some of the ones I've had in the past include thinking I was the savior of all the dogs that died from abuse/neglect, everybody else was an alien that was going to abduct me and perform experiments on me, that there was a magnet in my foot controlling my moods (major earthquakes would make me manic/depressed depending on where they were), and there was cyanide in all my food.
I get manic too. It feels like I'm on meth, but for weeks instead of hours. I don't sleep, my mind is racing, colors feel a thousand times more vibrant, and my mind just goes to sex. When depressed my mind goes to death/suicide, but when manic, my mind goes to sex all the time. My depressions aren't really a sadness, just like a lack of energy and will to do anything.

Thanks for replying! I see a lot of people talking about hearing voices. For me, I don't usually audibly hear anything but there are definitely voices inside my head. Sometimes I think spirits are trying to communicate with me. I see meaning and significance in random things. Visions/psychic phenomena too. I also feel like I'm being watched almost 100% of the time and I also get the sense that my thoughts are not private. I have visual hallucinations and distortions but they have never scared me too much. I get a sense or a feeling of evil sometimes, it's hard to explain. Like you said, when manic I feel and act like I'm on speed and I cannot stop the sexual thoughts and tendencies. The hypersexuality is really hard to deal with and it is unwanted. When in a depressed state, I feel as though I am or may as well be dead. My mind is confused and foggy. The sheer magnitude of irrelevant thoughts that flood my mind is insane. I can barely move, eat, take care of myself, leave the house, etc. I am scared and paranoid about doctors and I don't want to take the meds because they made me fat before. I don't know what to do. They had me on invega before but it really didn't even help that much.

[Icare dixit]

In my case, it's a combination of disorganised and paranoid types of SZ, and BP. Hallucinations don't really bother me much unless it's dangerous/alarming smells or bugs. It's inconvenient not knowing what is and what isn't, but either it's rather obvious that it probably isn't or it doesn't matter much whether it is.

Delusions are different. Paranoid delusions were (and still are in some ways) extremely debilitating or, rather, incapacitating. But even when I think torture, poisoning or death are imminent, I still stay rather composed (I do tremble, but it's not exactly fear) and I don't become aggressive or anything and since thinking is so much quicker when fear is reduced by psychosis, I am pretty good at finding possible ways to escape, possible scenarios, even if I think it's unlikely to work. I'd probably always face death this way, which is comforting to realise: I know how I react facing the worst and it's rather good.

My entire belief system is delusional if delusional means: unable (or very hard) to be disproven (or changed) by rational means; interfering with normal functioning; and very important.

Delusions make you very creative and may prepare you for the worst. However, the chronic delusions can be extremely damaging, stifling. But antipsychotics do really very much help to make the beliefs less important.

I don't mind mania or depression (much). Problems with debt and losing income are big problems, though. But it's the chronic delusions that remain and lack of stimulation and reasons, causing self-sabotage, together with too much insight, that cause the most harm.

[Icare dixit]

I believe all psychotic disorders are on a continuum, or rather, there is one psychotic spectrum disorder. The chance of SZA/BP or SZ is higher the more severe your (underlying) problems are. I believe there is a higher chance of BPD when the underlying problems are more severe, but generally less severe than for just SZA/BP or SZ. The worst BP-I might correlate most with BPD. There is (rather enough) suggestive evidence for all/most of this.

But I believe the true decisive factors in making the disorder more or less SZ, are the opportunities one has to escape one's predicament and how one chooses to escape one's predicament. These factors can more or less be reduced to fear. If one chooses to try and seize an existing opportunity, the fear being moderate, one may get manic, if one chooses not to pursue an opportunity, maybe not seeing/having any opportunity, fear being high, one may look for ways to accept it and to go on.

Both are forms of psychosis, but the one more expressive, the other more impressive. Both reduce fear. The more expressive one causes more severe depressions, the more impressive one has more lasting effects on the mind (and brain).

Both might be best given the circumstances, but I believe a borderline personality can be more helpful still. It's in some ways a combination. Expression can be both healthy and damaging.

The entire thing is a balance between risk-taking and risk-aversion, non-acceptance and acceptance, I'd say.

[lunaticfringe]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

I believe all psychotic disorders are on a continuum, or rather, there is one psychotic spectrum disorder. The chance of SZA/BP or SZ is higher the more severe your (underlying) problems are. I believe there is a higher chance of BPD when the underlying problems are more severe, but generally less severe than for just SZA/BP or SZ. The worst BP-I might correlate most with BPD. There is (rather enough) suggestive evidence for all/most of this.

But I believe the true decisive factors in making the disorder more or less SZ, are the opportunities one has to escape one's predicament and how one chooses to escape one's predicament. These factors can more or less be reduced to fear. If one chooses to try and seize an existing opportunity, the fear being moderate, one may get manic, if one chooses not to pursue an opportunity, maybe not seeing/having any opportunity, fear being high, one may look for ways to accept it and to go on.

Both are forms of psychosis, but the one more expressive, the other more impressive. Both reduce fear. The more expressive one causes more severe depressions, the more impressive one has more lasting effects on the mind (and brain).

Both might be best given the circumstances, but I believe a borderline personality can be more helpful still. It's in some ways a combination. Expression can be both healthy and damaging.

The entire thing is a balance between risk-taking and risk-aversion, non-acceptance and acceptance, I'd say.

Thank you for replying! I relate to much of what you're saying, but am confused by what you're suggesting about borderline personality disorder. Can you clarify?

[lunaticfringe]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

The entire thing is a balance between risk-taking and risk-aversion, non-acceptance and acceptance, I'd say.

This sums it up nicely.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by lunaticfringe

Thank you for replying! I relate to much of what you're saying, but am confused by what you're suggesting about borderline personality disorder. Can you clarify?

I believe BPD (or a borderline personality, because personalities are really too complex to use such a categorical, syndromal approach, though possibly least so for BPD) is a rather good way to balance the two approaches to risk (and fear) and acceptance.

In a way, it integrates parts of BP and SZ in one's personality and thereby creates a more flexible approach to one's problems: being attracted by the challenge (of limited chances/opportunities) but having/using some emotional repulsion or detachment, some emotional distancing, some acceptance of one's inclinations and using them instead of fearing them.

Basically, it's doing things more deliberately to prevent it happening with less deliberation and more severity. More controlled release and exposure, mostly to control fear, like BP and SZ, but, again, more deliberate and to prevent worse escalation, undercutting BP and SZ, more or less neutralising one or the other or a combination.

I believe one could be very much worse off without it. But it's not necessarily ideal. I believe one should use it more consciously and in many ways, differently. Suppression however, I believe to be far worse.

[Icare dixit]

Anyone else think that BPD can be beneficial in this way?

That it is a way of making problems less severe if put to good use? Should what it achieves be achieved by other, more healthy, means? Which?

I believe BPD creates some extra stimulation which is needed to prevent depression and mania. It might also "help" acceptance by creating (false) reasons for problems/failure. There must be a reason (or reasons) for the self-damaging and impulsive behaviour.

Is there a connection between schizoaffective disorder and borderline personality? One to balance risk-taking and -aversion and the other to undercut or partially prevent, SZA and in a different way balance the two.

Anyone else having schizoaffective disorder? Just to not make this into a BPD thread as it could be very much unrelated.

[lunaticfringe]

I have to be honest - I'm very interested by what you're saying here but I'm mostly left confused. Are you suggesting that it would be possible to mold oneself to adopt BPD and that life would be easier this way? If that is indeed what you are saying, that doesn't jive with me. I personally would never ever want to have any type of cluster b personality disorder.

What connection do you see between schizoaffective and BPD? There are certain similarities, like mood issues, but other than that these are two separate diagnoses.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by lunaticfringe

I have to be honest - I'm very interested by what you're saying here but I'm mostly left confused. Are you suggesting that it would be possible to mold oneself to adopt BPD and that life would be easier this way? If that is indeed what you are saying, that doesn't jive with me. I personally would never ever want to have any type of cluster b personality disorder.

What connection do you see between schizoaffective and BPD? There are certain similarities, like mood issues, but other than that these are two separate diagnoses.

I think it's difficult or impossible to adopt a "full" personality. I think it's undesirable to (fully) adopt any cluster B personality or any other dysfunctional personality type, if it were possible.

It certainly is very hard to deal with a borderline personality. It is dysfunctional in many ways. But I hope and believe it must be good for something.

Like all/most cluster B personality types, there is some ability to distance/detach oneself from one's emotions. That is useful.

There is also a more controlled expression in reaction to one's emotions, using the strengths of BP in a more controlled fashion so as to prevent escalation. A form of (defusing) co-optation, in some ways. That is useful.

I think some of that behaviour can be learned/internalised later in life.

The alternative may be more of a schizoid personality, which is in some ways worse.

But if you could have a more normal/healthy personality and function better, having, what I like to call, schizomania, schizoaffective disorder BP-type, schizomania being sometimes used and shorter, I'd take it.

I'm rather confused about BPD, which is typical, so I might see it all wrong. But there must be reasons. I hate the confusion. Lack of apparent reasons. It feels so hopeless. It's a love-hate relationship: how typical!



Edit:
It's infuriating: also typical, in a way.

Another edit:
The main similarity is based on where a borderline personality would fit into the psychotic spectrum, where BP-I borders on SZA and SZ.

Being also known as borderline schizophrenic while being rather like BP, BPD might take the same position as SZA. Maybe you could say that all of BP can be considered borderline schizophrenic, but co-morbidity between BPD and BP-I is higher than that of BPD and BP-II. It's therefore not completely unlikely that the most SZ-like forms of BP-I, arguably SZA rather, have some strong connection with BPD.

[raspberrytorte]

I was diagnosed schizoaffective, but don't think I really have it.

[Icare dixit]

Originally Posted by raspberrytorte

I was diagnosed schizoaffective, but don't think I really have it.

What makes you think that (and what were the reasons for that diagnosis as opposed to "just" BP?)?

I'm interested to know, because SZA might be a somewhat heterogeneous group (though that's difficult to "proof"). SZ can be BP-like and BP SZ-like in more ways than one, probably.

[raspberrytorte]

Originally Posted by Icare dixit

What makes you think that (and what were the reasons for that diagnosis as opposed to "just" BP?)?

I'm interested to know, because SZA might be a somewhat heterogeneous group (though that's difficult to "proof"). SZ can be BP-like and BP SZ-like in more ways than one, probably.

Well... what happened to me was that I had a psychotic break last year that mimicked a manic episode, but of what I believe was a severe stress/anxiety experience in which my brain just snapped. Then after that experience I had delusions and hallucinations and paranoia that I believe were after effects of that experience.

I have never heard voices nor experienced anything as severe as that before.

I'm fine now and I'm not on an antipsychotic.

I think my experience was more of a brief psychotic experience? Though it lasted a year long.

I don't think I have bp either.

I'm too old (33) to develop anything like that.

[Icare dixit]

It's unlikely you have "just" lots of anxiety. Interesting though.

Are you sure your anxiety isn't caused by (milder or more persistent and older) delusions and/or hallucinations?

Is it anxiety caused by doubt (or certainty)? If it's doubt, that could be typical neuroticism: fear of (fear of)+ (one or more times) not knowing.

Delusions don't have to be very concrete: there can be something threatening yet not easily definable. Some more concrete/developed/crystallised delusions (and hallucinations) can be based on that abstract sense, but more transient.

Do you often have anxiety or panic attacks? What happens if you do?

[Icare dixit]

Do you ever have (mild) delusions of grandeur? It could just be what some might call narcissism (or may indeed be like it).

Do you have social anxiety?

Edit:
You're never too old to develop BP or SZ. Anxiety (or stress) at one point may just be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

But it could be something that happened only once. Whether you still have it is then merely academic. Could be useful later, though.

[raspberrytorte]

The psychotic break delusion was a delusion of grandeur yes. The ones over the summer were in a way I guess, but not that one. I thought I could save the world with my positive energy. Lol.

I do have panic attacks. My anxiety is constant. I don't have paranoia right now. My anxiety and paranoia are different. My anxiety makes me feel sick all of the time, so I don't eat because it makes me want to puke.

My anxiety med is not working obviously!

I do get twitchy when I'm anxious, especially at night. I get scared for no reason. I have a constant feeling of dread.

I don't think my anxiety is caused by paranoia.

[Icare dixit]

I believe there are basically two types of anxiety, having two different causes, but they can sometimes be quite similar. One is more psychotic, the other neurotic, one based on knowing/conviction, the other on not knowing, doubt (trauma and phobias might be of the latter type, but maybe not).

The former can cause the latter, but not—directly—the other way round. The latter form of anxiety can cause psychotic perception/problems, psychoticism or psychosis, and thereby causing the former which can cause the latter and so on.

The latter type alone can directly cause more of it: it can be self-supporting.

All (can) create positive feedback loops, though I believe the perceptual-appraisal and mood or emotional changes, psychotic issues/disturbances, psychoticism, also lessen anxiety.

It's rather important to see whether there is any (maybe somewhat residual) anxiety of the former type, because doubt can be dealt with more easily than convictions and because the former can easily "reinvigorate" the latter.

The former type of anxiety is best treated with antipsychotics, pharmacotherapy, the latter type with psychotherapy (which you might do on your own).

As treating the latter type probably involves more exposure, meaning you should not try to lessen the doubt, by thinking/rationalising or asking for confirmation/affirmation, basically, you can't really overcome the latter type of anxiety without treating the former type—if you deal with both types.

I think panic attacks are suggestive of a stronger self-sustaining anxiety of the latter type than a feedback loop involving anything psychotic. It doesn't mean the former type doesn't exist or might not be what starts a panic attack.

Dread can be doubt or conviction, something that might go wrong or will go wrong. I do think if it's very really abstract and intangible I'd say it might be more of a psychotic nature, but I don't know.

To determine whether it is maintained by anxiety of a psychotic nature, I'd suggest trying an antipsychotic for at least six months. And learn to love uncertainty, if that is a problem.

Another approach is desentisation. The most difficult part is fear for anxiety/fear. If you distract yourself enough, you remove some of that fear.

You might also want more challenges: results matter more, leaving less room for doubt.

I (especially) wouldn't use meds for anxiety of a more neurotic or non-psychotic nature. But maybe it's best for you. Then I'd only use it for a few months.

Hope some of this might help.

[Icare dixit]

One more thing: it's unlikely that there is a very strong correlation between anxiety and depression. Anxiety might cause depression but it doesn't have to.

So if you don't have bipolar depression, you might still have unipolar depression and anxiety, if you have depression. In other words, it's important/meaningful to make that distinction.

If you have atypical depression, it probably makes it more likely you have BP, but maybe not by much.

[raspberrytorte]

Thanks icare. You gave me a lot to think about.

All I know is that I've had chronic anxiety my entire life, when it gets severe enough I get paranoid, so something has to be done about this.

And I'm NOT going on an antipsychotic! I was on an AP rollercoaster all last year and beginning of this year, I couldn't tolerate any of them, they ****ed me up, and I feel better now that I'm not on one.

I have an evaluation with a new pdoc tomorrow. We'll see what she says about my situation.

[Lost_in_the_woods]

Originally Posted by raspberrytorte

Well... what happened to me was that I had a psychotic break last year that mimicked a manic episode, but of what I believe was a severe stress/anxiety experience in which my brain just snapped. Then after that experience I had delusions and hallucinations and paranoia that I believe were after effects of that experience.

I have never heard voices nor experienced anything as severe as that before.

I'm fine now and I'm not on an antipsychotic.

I think my experience was more of a brief psychotic experience? Though it lasted a year long.

I don't think I have bp either.

I'm too old (33) to develop anything like that.

BP can go misdiagnosed or undiagnosed depending on how it presents and if parents arent well informed. I found out recently that SZA BP/manic paranoid type can infact present and go undiagnosed later than other types of psychotic disorders. Because of other overlying factors that mask/ mimic milder symptoms and that a full paranoid psychotic break may not present until triggered by a major life stressor. So if someones norm is high stress ie demanding job or competive envirnment...they may have a stronger threshhold thus stress takes longer to build up into a full break.

[Icare dixit]

Crazy prevents crazier. Until it doesn't.