Not everything is a symptom of BP

And I would love a blameless society.

I agree. But for some people with mental illness, not taking responsibility is one of the actual symptoms. Don't get me wrong...everyone should take responsibility but the very nature of some people's illness will mean they can't even see the trouble they cause. Therefore to be upset when people blame bad behaviors on their illness is a result of being confused about what they are actually dealing with.

The OP should take great pride that they do not blame their non BP issues on BP. Toot away on that horn....I get it. We should take great pride in our efforts. But if someone is blaming non BP issues on BP constantly, it doesn't automatically make them an azzhole. Perhaps just confused or very sick. We should be grateful if we see our issues and can address them with perfection....we should also understand that not everyone is so healthy or capable.

A society where people take responsibility is important. Everyone's responsible for what they can do to improve. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's pretty hard to take responsibility for things you do not see. There are a great many people who do things that are very damaging to others but cannot see it. How do they take responsibility? Mental illness is real and if people don't understand that sometimes you can't even be held accountable for your choices, they are battling a much different illness than I have.

People are responsible for what they can do. Not seeing isn't an excuse if others do and tell you.

But sometimes you just can't do much/enough. If you can't believe what others are saying, no one tells you or you believe to see what's not there/so.

Well if people directly tell you something and you feel they are wrong or delusional, how does that scenario work out?

The belief is the problem, not the not seeing. Of course there's seeing and seeing. But believing, the word, is less ambiguous.

You are always accountable for your choices.

Everybody has their cross to bear... and they should try to do the best they can.

I don't want to live in a world where everybody runs over each other and then claims they cannot be held accountable cause "I have illness", "mom didn't hug me enough", "I was bullied onces", "I wasn't invited to a birthday party in third grade"...

It's not so hard to realize you are doing somethign wrong. Sure, it is harder to remedy it, like not to be paranoid snappy ***** in my case... but well, I still can be held accountable.

The belief is what you see, so they are one in the same.

I expanded. You're quick!

And I don't want to live in a world where someone complains they weren't hugged enough and is deeply scarred by it to be told they should just get over it or it's not as important as the next persons issue. Is this some sort of a contest on who's mental illness has more merit? We are all at different points in our recovery and I like to support people where they are at and build on getting better and stronger. I was bullied and it was not a SMALL thing. It was criminal assault and effected me deeply.

I was bullied too. Not excuse to hurt others. And I try not to.

That is the point. We should not just traumatized ourselves and then use the traumas to be assholes and traumatize others who will use it as excuse...

I am will to be nice for others, but as long as they are talking about "NOT MY FAULT", be unwilling to apologize and use their problems as excuse and show no regret and even demand special treatment and pity for acting like assholes... all sympathy crumbles.

agree. Everyone should own their own behavior. I can understand blaming past behavior on BP (or any other diagnosises) before your diagnosed but after that it's a persons responsibility to own their behavior and do their best to maintain stability. Kind of like an alcoholic saying the alcohol makes me drink, but that first drink is their responsibility.

This is an interesting thread.
Thanks to the efforts of all posters, I can see the logic behind varying aspects of this topic.

I am usually a stickler for people taking responsibility. Big time.
Yet, I also understand the points ElsaMars is making about very real limitations with insight, very disabling illness.

*Possible Trigger:*



Approx 3 years ago, I was brutally attacked in a public park in broad daylight.
I had sustained a traumatic brain injury and whiplash. (It was a surprise attack from behind me.)

Long story short -- after an arrest and investigation it was determined my
assailant was a woman in her mid-50's, with a 30+ year history of severe paranoid schizophrenia and other serious psych conditions. She was over 300 miles from her "home." She had needed "supervision," including group home shelter for over 30 yrs. She was now in this area without any money, food or meds, was "homeless," living in the streets and had been asking the local social services programs for help. The investigation had clearly shown she had truly repeatedly gone to area agencies, including the area's ER, asking for help.

Prior to the details which came out via investigating this person, I was very big on seeing my assailant held accountable.

After becoming more intimately aware of her life and her circumstances I chose to become more of an advocate than a prosecutor toward her. While I feel the streets need to be protected from random assaults, etc., I could see she had lived a very difficult life (a life many of us might call "hell").

When attacking me, she had truly thought she was striking out to save her own life (her delusions had driven her to assault).

She had bought herself a bus ticket to visit this area for a day, to celebrate her own birthday. She had started to decompensate and all went very awry. She found herself over 300 miles from home and could find no help when seeking help. No social services agency would help her with meds, would help her to get back home, etc. Once she had deteriorated enough to become more delusional and had harmed someone (me), she could then be "arrested" and then helped via the services available to "inmates" at the jail.

It's unfortunate nobody could/would help her when she was actively asking for help, before she'd become more ill (no meds) and before she'd harmed someone else. Records show she had been in the area, living on the streets for 3 weeks, asking various agencies for help (prior to the assault).

I had severe injuries, including a post-concussion syndrome for which I still must take anti-epileptic medication.

If anyone could "be held accountable," I'd be all for it!

I could see, from her life-long history, that she is a victim of a very disabling, very severe MI (more than one). She was psychotic when she'd suddenly attacked me.

She was tearful and remorseful when we'd met -- after a period of "stabilization" while being held in jail. (Hearings were being postponed, for months, awaiting her stabilization.)

I had asked for the opportunity to speak to her once she was stabilized, yet still "in custody." In time, she and her attorney agreed to see me.
I had a chance to explain my injuries and also a chance to tell her how sorry I was/am that she has suffered severe MI (and all kinds of complications) for over 30 years of her life. We were allowed to hug one another at the end of our conversation.

She does not recall the assault; however, she was remorseful and saddened she had harmed anyone. She was psychotic and could not get help when she was still lucid enough to ask for help.

She was repeatedly assessed and was consistently rated as incompetent to assist in her own defense. This assessment was true. Her illness had taken over and social agencies, including the local ER, had failed her -- had failed to protect both her and had failed society -- had failed to keep both her and the streets safe.

I have been an outspoken advocate of people taking "personal responsibility," without fully understanding there are some conditions/illnesses/circumstances where people truly do not know what they are doing -- and they may or may not ever have the ability to gain insight -- in order to take responsibility.

This experience had opened my eyes, my understanding, and my heart, more fully.

That said, there's a balance. Some of us can take more responsibility for our behaviors, as stated "Moreta." We all should take as much responsibility as we can take, as put forth by "Icare dixit."

May we understand if/when we encounter someone who truly cannot overcome the limitations of severely disabling conditions, as put forth by "ElsaMars."

Love to All,


WC

Thank you for your post, WC.
The situation you experienced is a perfect example of when the person truly cannot control their actions. I think it's great that she felt remorseful and was able to express that when she achieved some stability.

I agree it you when one seeps into the madness of paranoia or grandeur one does not realize that one is in these delusions. Delusions are dangerous because you don't realize they are not reality. So therefore, if one is agitated one usually isn't in the right mind.

There is no mental illness. Yeah. Sounds like someone I know who posts on Facebook quite often pontificating how mental illness isn't real and how the meds we take are made by horrible selfish drug companies that have no regard for us at all, just for all the money they make. Mental illness doesn't exist and if you think you have a mental illness there's just something plain WRONG with you as a person.

There are three classes within the bully spectrum. Those who are bullied, those who bully and victim/bullies. The ones with the most typical psychological issues are those who are both victims and in turn bully others. Victim bullies have many more behavior risks and psychological conflict. So in this scenario, it's the victim/bully who needs the most help.

and who said that here?

And do you believe there is not wrong with anybody ever? Like that Hitler was just poo wittle ill thing and if he gotten his meds right he'd be bag of hugs?

Venus, someone did say that mental illness doesn't exsist earlier in the thread.

I do believe Hitler was mentally Ill. I don't think meds would have cured him or made him a big bag of hugs. Mental illness is not pretty and manifests in many different ways.

Going back to the main theme of the post, people with NPD would probably just be considered a jerk. They often are incapable of apologizing even when they are clearly wrong. They are difficult and cause people much stress. Most people who meet someone with NPD won't consider them mentally ill. They will just see them as an azzhole. This is an easier conclusion and doesn't require much thought. But NPD is a very real mental illness with much deeper issues at play than appear on the surface. People with NPD make the lives of others and often their own lives very difficult. It has extreme consequences and is often passed down to children. It's a real mental illness even if it doesn't present like one would expect. Most people will just assume the person is an azzhole but they are truly sick and need help.

We have a lot of pathologies passed down to us from previous generations. If someone is an azzhole occasionally then that is just normal and not pathological. If they do it and it effects their life and the lives of others in a negative way it should be viewed as an illness and treatment given. We keep repeating pathological cycles in society an nobody wants to see what's right in front of them. We need help and increased mental health support to help bring forth healthier generations.

No treatment will unasshile somebody.

By calling Hitler mentally ill you are stigmatizing those of us who suffer and struggle and dont go genocidal.

They only treatment for some assholes is a well aimed punch.

By making everything into illness... nobody will be helped. Soon we would declare snark,cynicism or being sarcastic is MI cause some dont like it.

We all have our flaws,some peeps are full of them. MI is rarer than being sorta crappy person or bad at life.

My goal is a healthier society. Getting help does help azzholes....I've watched it happen....it's a slow process but you can take a very hostile negative person and treat them. Or you can do nothing and let them infect people left and right and often have children who repeat the pattern they teach them.

I watched Oliver Stones The real history of the United States of American and Hitler was discussed. I got into a discussion with my friend and husband and we all agreed Hilter clearly was pathological in his beliefs. His thinking was not sane. I am not stigmatizing anyone. I'm not a doctor and haven't gotten the opinion of mental health professionals, this is my opinion.

I think some people are just evil. Some may be ill too.... but why focus on helping the assholes first?

I am trying so hard but nobody believes me i struggle cause i dont cause havoc on the outside. How is that fair.