Who Is Vegan Or Vegetarian?

lightly toasted · Sep 15, 2020, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpcyclist

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The health reasons I was referring to had nothing to do with thinness or thickness. My dad is 88, but prior to him, every single male on his side of the family died of heart disease by 50.
Hugs.

Oh for sure, I hear ya. People with a genetic predisposition gotta do what they gotta do.

I'm speaking to my own experience, and for those who are prone to disordered eating and obsession to the detriment of their mental health in the name of a good cause.

*Beth* · 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightly toasted

I was a hardcore vegan for the animals - eco warrior for 10 years. before hitting burnout. It wasn't just the food, I wore or purchased no leather or wool, and only used cruelty-free toiletries and cosmetics. I was taking my own grocery bags to the store when no one else was - at least not where I lived.

My physical health was fine , however, in hindsight it was all a bit crazy-making.

Back in the day, and this still exists today, there is a lot of pressure on ethical vegans to be good representatives for the cause. This means remaining thin. Although the animals don't really give a toss if you're fat or thin, just that you're not eating them. There remains a lot of fat phobia within the vegan movement also lot of omnivores would just not take a fat vegan or vegetarian seriously So it it was often preached especially by the strictly vegan for health types, that we were doing a disservice to the animals if we allowed ourselves to get fat. Despite having gone vegan for the animals it was pretty easy for this little bipolar person, to get caught up in a lot of disordered eating practices in order to appear the "good vegan" ...not too thin, not too fat. For years I was caught in exercise bullimia and a never ending restrict/ binge cycle.

Going vegan for animals is great, but doing it for "health reasons" or in other words chasing thin and getting sucked into that healthism/diet culture aspect can be dangerous territory for people with mental illness and a history or disordered eating. And many vegans who are in it strictly for the animals can get sucked into this aspect as well.

Same with the eco-warrior approach, this can quickly become a crazy-making, obsessed/religiousity for those of us with mental health issues - it did for me.

TL;DR ... in my experience, folks with mental illness should tread very carefully when restricting what they eat, regardless of the reasons behind it.

Great post and it is wisely based upon experience. The reasons you have illustrated are exactly why I don't "advertise" being vegetarian. I am overweight from psych meds, even though the food I eat is very healthy, and I do not overeat. The meds have just really screwed with my metabolism. When I was initially veg. I was thin, but I'd always been thin. That cult-like movement that disguises eating disorders gets very weird. Lots of denial.

I'm vegetarian (with the very, very rare exception) because it genuinely bothers me to eat animals. I also have a crap family history of cardiac disease and stroke, which scares the heck out of me. But I don't talk with people about being vegetarian. It's very personal, to me. I'm not a club member, card carrying veg.

Scooter9 · Sep 15, 2020, 05:07 PM

I've been a vegetarian for 30 years now. But I include salmon, tuna, eggs and milk.

I have the fish because of the fish oil, omaga 3 think.

I was vegan for 2 years but found it hard to manage, plus I lost a lot of weight. I got too low for my bmi so I gave it up.

I've been vegetarian longer than I've been bipolar so I don't know the effect on stability. I've had my ups and downs but have been depressed for 3 years now if that says anything.

I switched because I felt better after a vegetarian meal so I thought I could feel better all the time if I switched, and I do.

I'm not opposed to eating animals but I am opposed to the scale at which we do it. Being vegetarian reduces the number of animals raised and proceed by a little so it's my way of reducing demand.

VerMOZZica · Sep 17, 2020, 10:04 PM

I have been a vegetarian for about 20 years. My reason for going vegetarian is because I don`t want any animals to be slaughtered for me. I don`t ever crave meat because I know where it comes from. I cook vegetarian meals for my family and they enjoy it too.

Nammu · Sep 17, 2020, 10:14 PM

Back in the day co-ops were holes in the wall and friendly. Places to get cheap good wholesome bulk food. I find today’s co-ops taken over by holy-er than tho types. Whole Foods took it to extreme and priced most Co-ops out of the zone. I really miss the co-op I used to frequent in the 70’s and 80’s.

xRavenx · Sep 18, 2020, 11:58 AM

100% vegetarian here; not vegan though. I have been considering veganism, but I have a hard time giving up dairy within certain products completely (for instance, I eat pizza) , but I do use Almond Milk instead for cereal, etc. I have a hard time when it comes to finding those hidden ingredients in different foods that makes a food un-vegan. Some day maybe though.

lightly toasted · Sep 18, 2020, 12:44 PM

Like Vermozza, I loved animals and didn't crave meat.

But once my bipolar shifted, and I became more depressive and my hypomania became dysphoric and the euphoric hypomanic episodes were replaced with horrible mixed episodes, I just stopped giving a sh**. Seroquel made me crave food I had not eaten in years. But even once I stopped seroquel I found it difficult to return to veganism, and I have made hundreds of attempts over the years. It just won't stick anymore. I still hate that we kill and cause animals to suffer for food, but there's this exhaustion I still feel, this small bit of deadness in my heart, that just can't muster the will to go and stay vegan again...this is just me, and I'm not explaining it very well; sorry.

I think today, if someone with mental illness wished to go whole foods plant-based for their health, or vegan for the animals...maybe there is more sane and rational support nowadays. Or maybe the millions of opinions on the internet make it harder. I don't know. I think going vegan in my day, (pre-internet) it was easier, maybe it was harder. I really couldn't say.

I remember Bill Clinton eliminated animal products for his heart condition and it helped, but I think he's loosened up a bit to a more Dean Ornish sort of thing, and includes fish in his diet. Dean Ornish was originally preaching no animal products and no fat at all - this was back in the early 90s.

I'm very sorry that my original post was discouraging. I just wanted to say for everyone it's not so easy. But having bipolar disorder is not necessarily going to make a dietary change problematic for everyone that is afflicted

*Beth* · Sep 18, 2020, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightly toasted

Like Vermozza, I loved animals and didn't crave meat.

But once my bipolar shifted, and I became more depressive and my hypomania became dysphoric and the euphoric hypomanic episodes were replaced with horrible mixed episodes, I just stopped giving a sh**. Seroquel made me crave food I had not eaten in years. But even once I stopped seroquel I found it difficult to return to veganism, and I have made hundreds of attempts over the years. It just won't stick anymore. I still hate that we kill and cause animals to suffer for food, but there's this exhaustion I still feel, this small bit of deadness in my heart, that just can't muster the will to go and stay vegan again...this is just me, and I'm not explaining it very well; sorry.

I think today, if someone with mental illness wished to go whole foods plant-based for their health, or vegan for the animals...maybe there is more sane and rational support nowadays. Or maybe the millions of opinions on the internet make it harder. I don't know. I think going vegan in my day, (pre-internet) it was easier, maybe it was harder. I really couldn't say.

I remember Bill Clinton eliminated animal products for his heart condition and it helped, but I think he's loosened up a bit to a more Dean Ornish sort of thing, and includes fish in his diet. Dean Ornish was originally preaching no animal products and no fat at all - this was back in the early 90s.

I'm very sorry that my original post was discouraging. I just wanted to say for everyone it's not so easy. But having bipolar disorder is not necessarily going to make a dietary change problematic for everyone that is afflicted

Your post wasn't discouraging, it was realistic (in my experience, anyway).

bpcyclist · Sep 18, 2020, 06:19 PM

There is some fairly recent data that being vegan can aggravate depression in us. Was a bit concerned.

lightly toasted · Sep 19, 2020, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpcyclist

There is some fairly recent data that being vegan can aggravate depression in us. Was a bit concerned.

I think this might be the case for me. I add eggs and dairy yogurt, a bit of tuna to my diet for a few weeks and my mood and energy improve. This could be correlation not causation though - I mean maybe I chose those foods for myself because I was already starting to feel better?

But this is interesting that you've mentioned data you've found. Bpcyclist,could you possibly provide a link?

bpcyclist · Sep 19, 2020, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightly toasted

I think this might be the case for me. I add eggs and dairy yogurt, a bit of tuna to my diet for a few weeks and my mood and energy improve. This could be correlation not causation though - I mean maybe I chose those foods for myself because I was already starting to feel better?

But this is interesting that you've mentioned data you've found. Bpcyclist,could you possibly provide a link?

Yep. I'll hunt it down.

Fuzzybear · Sep 19, 2020, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpcyclist

Yep. I'll hunt it down.

I'm experimenting with diet, hoping it will help (even if only a little)

Tonight I had milk with our meal instead of wine.

Papa bear had red wine....

lightly toasted · Sep 19, 2020, 03:05 PM

Oh gosh! I can't do booze at all. At all. Even it small amounts it makes me feel wretched for days. It's been two years since I poked that bear.

I think that could be an interesting thread on it's own, Fuzzybear. I sort of assume that alcohol is disastrous for anyone with bipolar disorder, but maybe not. Maybe there are folks who can handle a glass of wine now and then.

bpcyclist · Sep 19, 2020, 05:12 PM

Okay, there was a 2018 study called the Constances Cohort in MDPI that showed a strong correlation

sarahsweets · Sep 20, 2020, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cygne

Meat was definitely different back in the day.
Dad was hunting a lot and we grew up on a farm.

I always thought it was weird to eat pigs or boars when we pet cats and roll our eyes at the Chinese for eating dogs when we eat deer. And so on. Melanie Joy calls it carnism.

So I'd say I'm an ethical vegan — when I was eight I used to say I'd like to stand on my head when I'll be eighty.
I don't see differences between animals and humans. We're primates belonging to the same kingdom, Animalia.
Historically we ate animals to survive, hence why we're omnivores, but our anatomy proves to be more closely related to that of herbivores. See comparative anatomy.
Dairy is addictive because of the casein. It's worse on the body than eating a whole ribeye steak. This is the main reason why vegetarians can't shift to a plant-based, vegan diet.
In the old China Study by Dr. Colin Campbell (I say old because China's changed its diet significantly over the decades), a diet absent in animal protein is advised for better health.

Dairy is addictive? Like as addictive as opiates and alcohol?

MsMystery · Sep 20, 2020, 05:13 PM

I'm super glad you started this thread!!!! I've been vegetarian for years. I am because I love animals too much to want to kill them and eat them. Plus, it's hard to get meat that is raised humanely, although it is possible to find that. The only "meat" I eat is oysters, and I have not yet justified/unjustified eating oysters. I have learned to eat very well as a vegetarian. For breakfast, I have oatmeal with hemp hearts and 1 tsp of brown sugar, with a little bit of almond milk poured over it. For lunch almost every day I have an Amy's brand frozen bowl. Can you get those where you live? They are delicious and have lost of vegetables in many of them. I also eat canned vegetables with every meal, including breakfast. I have a small supper. Sometimes it's a can of Amy's brand soup, sometimes it's low fat unsweetened yogurt with added hemp hearts and 1 level tablespoon of glucose. I don't have sugar or honey in the house anymore only glucose/dextrose and brown sugar which I keep for my oatmeal. I found out recently from my pdoc that I've put on 15 lbs since 2017 when I started Mirtazapine. I'm going to have surgery on Sept. 30, but after I recover I told my pdoc that I insist on getting off Mirtazapine, and maybe Remeron, too, and find a different med. I told her I made a decision years ago never to take medication that put weight on me. I'm very unhappy to know that I have put on 15 lbs. I thought I had "only" put on 8 lbs recently. I'll read some of the other posts to see if there are any vegetarians on this thread. I'm not at all interested in becoming vegan.

MsMystery · Sep 20, 2020, 05:16 PM

Gosh!! There are no vegetarians besides me posting here!! Let's hear it from some people who are vegetarians or vegans????? Please?

bpcyclist · Sep 20, 2020, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsMystery

I'm super glad you started this thread!!!! I've been vegetarian for years. I am because I love animals too much to want to kill them and eat them. Plus, it's hard to get meat that is raised humanely, although it is possible to find that. The only "meat" I eat is oysters, and I have not yet justified/unjustified eating oysters. I have learned to eat very well as a vegetarian. For breakfast, I have oatmeal with hemp hearts and 1 tsp of brown sugar, with a little bit of almond milk poured over it. For lunch almost every day I have an Amy's brand frozen bowl. Can you get those where you live? They are delicious and have lost of vegetables in many of them. I also eat canned vegetables with every meal, including breakfast. I have a small supper. Sometimes it's a can of Amy's brand soup, sometimes it's low fat unsweetened yogurt with added hemp hearts and 1 level tablespoon of glucose. I don't have sugar or honey in the house anymore only glucose/dextrose and brown sugar which I keep for my oatmeal. I found out recently from my pdoc that I've put on 15 lbs since 2017 when I started Mirtazapine. I'm going to have surgery on Sept. 30, but after I recover I told my pdoc that I insist on getting off Mirtazapine, and maybe Remeron, too, and find a different med. I told her I made a decision years ago never to take medication that put weight on me. I'm very unhappy to know that I have put on 15 lbs. I thought I had "only" put on 8 lbs recently. I'll read some of the other posts to see if there are any vegetarians on this thread. I'm not at all interested in becoming vegan.

Thanks!! Will check out Amy's.

MsMystery · Sep 20, 2020, 06:04 PM

Thanks for this message. What is artificially grown meat? As I wrote in my first post here, I eat farmed oysters. I have read that farming oysters helps purify the ocean. I wonder if this is true. Does anyone know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FluffyDinosaur

Re the environment, I think the main thing is for people to eat less meat (and dairy/eggs), but cutting it out entirely is not necessarily required. Hopefully we'll have good artificially grown meat soon, although I believe some people object to that.

I'm of the opinion that if you do eat meat, you shouldn't be squeamish about acknowledging where it came from. Something about honoring the animal I suppose.

MsMystery · Sep 20, 2020, 06:11 PM

Hello, Lightly Toasted, you make some very good observations here. I have met vegans and vegetarians who were so aggressively proselytizing that it was very obnoxious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightly toasted

I was a hardcore vegan for the animals - eco warrior for 10 years. before hitting burnout. It wasn't just the food, I wore or purchased no leather or wool, and only used cruelty-free toiletries and cosmetics. I was taking my own grocery bags to the store when no one else was - at least not where I lived.

My physical health was fine , however, in hindsight it was all a bit crazy-making.

Back in the day, and this still exists today, there is a lot of pressure on ethical vegans to be good representatives for the cause. This means remaining thin. Although the animals don't really give a toss if you're fat or thin, just that you're not eating them. There remains a lot of fat phobia within the vegan movement also lot of omnivores would just not take a fat vegan or vegetarian seriously So it it was often preached especially by the strictly vegan for health types, that we were doing a disservice to the animals if we allowed ourselves to get fat. Despite having gone vegan for the animals it was pretty easy for this little bipolar person, to get caught up in a lot of disordered eating practices in order to appear the "good vegan" ...not too thin, not too fat. For years I was caught in exercise bullimia and a never ending restrict/ binge cycle.

Going vegan for animals is great, but doing it for "health reasons" or in other words chasing thin and getting sucked into that healthism/diet culture aspect can be dangerous territory for people with mental illness and a history or disordered eating. And many vegans who are in it strictly for the animals can get sucked into this aspect as well.

Same with the eco-warrior approach, this can quickly become a crazy-making, obsessed/religiousity for those of us with mental health issues - it did for me.

TL;DR ... in my experience, folks with mental illness should tread very carefully when restricting what they eat, regardless of the reasons behind it.

MsMystery · Sep 20, 2020, 06:25 PM

I forgot to mention that I buy cruelty free products. This entails at least in part, cleaning products that are not tested on animals; Bic WiteOut instead of Liquid Paper (which is tested on animals, or used to be anyway); free-ranging chicken eggs that are organic, and I buy organic as much as I can afford to. I started out buying organic years and years ago -- several decades -- and decided to buy part of my rice, for instance, organic, and the rest not organic because I could not afford to buy 100% organic rice. I figured that the more people who did at least that much, would eventually bring down the price of organic foods. I think organic foods are often very little more expensive than non-organic. And, of course, buying organic is very important to protect our environment.

MsMystery · Sep 20, 2020, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpcyclist

Thanks!! Will check out Amy's.

I hope you love Amy's foods as much as I do. They tend to be a little bland, but I like bland. Some of them, I add soy sauce to.

Blue_Bird · Sep 20, 2020, 09:16 PM

Not vegan or vegetarian but trying to make changes to my diet to be healthier, and also have been looking into foods that are good for the brain, mood, anxiety, etc

Nammu · Sep 20, 2020, 09:39 PM

Best vegetarian cook book ever; moosewood cookbook. I don’t know what changes they’ve made to it but I know there’s a 40th edition. I have the first. Great book. Sad thing is that it’s in the basement in one of about 100 boxes along with my soup pot and pedestal. My wok and bamboo steaming pots are hidden there too.

FluffyDinosaur · Sep 21, 2020, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsMystery

Thanks for this message. What is artificially grown meat? As I wrote in my first post here, I eat farmed oysters. I have read that farming oysters helps purify the ocean. I wonder if this is true. Does anyone know?

It's meat that isn't taken from a slaughtered animal but rather produced by culturing "meat" cells (real animal cells). It's real meat, it just wasn't grown inside an animal so there's no suffering involved. Some people don't like the idea of eating something that "came from a lab" but I would think this is a good development. We can stop animal cruelty without force-feeding everyone a vegan diet against their will. It's also much easier on the ozone layer than animal-grown meat.

Unrelated: The China Study, I'm not a fan of it, though I'm sure it contains some nuggets of wisdom. My wife is very enthusiastic about it, but to me it's just too black and white. Real life doesn't work that way. The book comes across as a religious text the way it demonizes anything non-vegan. It makes me question the objectivity of the authors, and indeed the book does quote selectively from the literature. I'm sure (occasionally) eating vegan can be healthy, and I'm sure you shouldn't eat a pound of bacon every day, but I don't believe eating meat or dairy now and then will poison you. I prefer a balanced discussion instead of a holy text. Unfortunately balanced discussions are hard to find when it comes to diet.

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