I'm wondering how many others have regarded themselves to be particularly frequent daydreamers, at times. Or always. I am curious if there is a link between daydreaming and bipolar disorder.

I have always been a daydreamer, even maladaptively, at times. I believe it has been related to changes in my thinking because of mood episodes, and other times as an "escape", of sorts (coping mechanism that may or may not be good). Though I wouldn't call myself a bona fide "addict", I have been prone to various types of mild to serious abuse of things, such as alcohol, stimulants, food, and the daydreaming. I've also been prone to other "less than ideal" coping behaviors (grinding/clenching teeth, hitting myself in the head, etc.) These habits come and go for me and sometimes change. In this thread, I am particularly interested in the daydreaming.

I have googled "bipolar disorder daydreaming" and many results included articles that at least briefly mentioned intense/increased daydreaming in people with bipolar disorder.

If this topic is at all relevant to you, I would be interested in learning what role daydreaming plays in your life. Also, any characteristics of your daydreaming (types, frequency, purpose, etc.)

[childofchaos831]

We daydream. We would say we maladaptive daydream. It can be considered a disorder but it's not in the DSM yet. We fit the criteria for the disorder. We do it every day. It calms us down. It is absolutely a coping skill for us.

Interesting topic, BirdDancer!

Have you seen this article about the general population w/r/t daydreaming? --> http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/dan...ience-2010.pdf

To find out how often people’s minds wander, what topics they wander to, and how those wan- derings affect their happiness, we analyzed samples from 2250 adults (58.8% male, 73.9% residing in the United States, mean age of 34 years) who were randomly assigned to answer a happiness question (“How are you feeling right now?”) answered on a continuous sliding scale from very bad (0) to very good (100), an activity question (“What are you doing right now?”) answered by endorsing one or
more of 22 activities adapted from the day recon- struction method (10, 11), and a mind-wandering question (“Are you thinking about something other than what you’re currently doing?”) answered with one of four options: no; yes, something pleas- ant; yes, something neutral; or yes, something un- pleasant. Our analyses revealed three facts.

and

Mind wandering occurred in 46.9% of the samples and in at least 30% of the samples taken during every activity except making love

Seems rather common

[bpcyclist]

Very interesting. When I am in depression mode, when my PTSD has been activated, or when I am totally at the end of my rope due to mania + psychosis that is not at that time under control, I ruminate. A ton. I get into negative thought loop pathways, negative neural pathways, that go around and around and around. Very debilitating.

When I do this, I lose all track of time or where I am or what I am supposed to be doing. It is, I suppose, somewhat like a dream while awake, though it never occurred to me to think of it in that way.

I would love it if I had positive loop pathway rumination. That would be delightful. I would like to have one where I daydream about different varieties of roses, say. But I do not.

[*Beth*]

I daydream constantly. I think I truly mean that. There's a movie reel running in my mind all the time; memories, ideas, this, that...sometimes I even talk about it, when I'm alone. Sometimes there are sounds with the daydreams, sometimes silence and just pictures. Many times it's tiring. So I sleep - but I dream then, too.

Thanks for the interesting article, bluebicycle! I'm glad you posted about that, because that makes me realize that I should be clear that I don't mean "wandering mind" in the sense of sitting in a class, but instead of paying attention to a teacher, rather thinking "I wonder what I want for dinner", "Do you think he might like me?", or "I think I'm not smart enough to get a good grade in this class." I'm more referring to daydreaming where one is actively creating stories in one's mind, like as if a movie or soap opera. Thinking through long scenarios or screen plays, of sorts, with extreme details of dialogue and mental images. I know all people do that to a small degree, but maladaptively is an extreme. I wonder if there is a differential, on the whole, between the amount of time and detail that many people with bipolar disorder daydream, at times, and those without bipolar disorder. When I refer to maladaptive daydreaming, it could be daydreaming almost non-stop for several hours in a day. Often to the point where when others are speaking to you, you are barely able to listen. Daydreaming in bed. In the bathroom. In a car. At work. Almost non-stop. Almost living or observing hours and hours of another life. Sometimes when that "story" is exhausted/finished, starting over again with perhaps a slightly different version, or moving onto something totally new. Perhaps forgetting to eat or bathe, at its worst.

childofchaos, I'm sorry to read that you daydream maladaptively. I believe, in some form, it should be included in the DSM. It can be distressing or at the least disabling, to various degrees.

bpcyclist, I could certainly see a relationship between intense daydreaming and PTSD. In my particular case, my maladaptive daydreaming seemed to even cause dissociative symptoms. I now wonder how much (at least mine) was related to depression, mania, anxiety, some obsessive compulsive tendencies, or the like. It's something I wish was explored further.

[childofchaos831]

bpcyclist and Birddancer,

We have PTSD and dissociation also, wonder if there's a connection there too?

Originally Posted by BethRags

I daydream constantly. I think I truly mean that. There's a movie reel running in my mind all the time; memories, ideas, this, that...sometimes I even talk about it, when I'm alone. Sometimes there are sounds with the daydreams, sometimes silence and just pictures. Many times it's tiring. So I sleep - but I dream then, too.

That's interesting how you talk about it to yourself, out loud or in your head. I've done similar. I've even physically made the movements in my daydream "stories" and verbalized dialogue.

At my worst of maladaptive daydreaming, I would stay up most of the night, almost unable to stop...like not being able to put down a book. For me, it can also be tiring, in a way. Thoughts going on so intensely, non-stop. It's like, but not quite like, racing thoughts, for me. The main difference is that a story line can proceed in a linear fashion, while my true manic racing thoughts are like fireworks or thoughts moving like multiple balls bouncing around.

[childofchaos831]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

That's interesting how you talk about it. I've done similar. I've even physically made movements in my daydream "stories" and verbalized dialogue.


At my worst of maladaptive daydreaming, I would stay up most of the night, almost unable to stop...like not being able to put down a book. For me, it can also be tiring, in a way. Thoughts going on so intensely, non-stop. It's like, but not quite like, racing thoughts, for me. The main difference is that a story line can proceed in a linear fashion, while my true manic racing thoughts are like fireworks or thoughts moving like multiple balls bouncing around.

Exactly. Talking out loud. Staying up late to keep daydreaming. Don't want to stop to sleep.

Originally Posted by childofchaos831

bpcyclist and Birddancer,

We have PTSD and dissociation also, wonder if there's a connection there too?

I sure don't know, but it seems like something to definitely explore. I can say that the worst of my maladaptive daydreaming, and the worst of my depersonalization/derealization occurred at basically the same time. It started during a particularly rough period in my attempts for recovery. In my case, it all started after my long string of hospitalizations, after my disability started, and while I was struggling to avoid additional hospitalizations. In my case, doctors even suspected that I was having simple partial seizures (sensory and psychic). I was having hallucinations (visual and auditory), but I think mine were more from dissociation at that time, more than actual psychosis from my bipolar disorder, which I had also experienced in the past. I even had some brief dissociative amnesia (seconds to minutes). Amnesia (or blackouts when conscious) experiences were present during my most severe manic and manic w/mixed features episodes (mostly with psychosis). In the case of maladaptive daydreaming, sometimes the "story" becomes so intense that the outside world ceases to exist. I stopped seeing and hearing the things in the immediate/actual environment I was in. Again, sometimes for hours, rather than seconds or minutes. I could wander as if I could see (not bumping into things), but in my head was a totally different scene.

Journal articles have been written on related subject:

Is risk for mania associated with increased daydreaming as a form of mental imagery? | Request PDF

From the article at Differences in coping strategies in adult patients with bipolar disorder and their first-degree relatives in comparison to healthy controls
"The greater use of maladaptive strategies by patients than by controls may be associated with the cognitive deterioration that can occur in bipolar patients with long disease duration and recurrent episodes. 31 Coping strategies are dependent on the integrity of executive function, and a long-lasting disease process can lead to the ineffective use of coping strategies and consequent adoption of mechanisms that are less effective for the management of stressful situations...The more frequent use by the patients of strategies such as...self-distraction (mental disengagement from the objective with which the stressor is interfering, through daydreaming,...indicates a reduced capacity to manage adverse situations that may be related to cognitive deterioration caused by disease duration."

I like to sit quietly and wander in my thoughts, day-dreaming. It's very pleasant. Sometimes it gets more intense and i have fantasies. One theme i have noticed is where i am with a group i'm in and some new person arrives who knows me and we have a fantastic conversation that shows all the others that i am NOT "Boring Jane" like they thought, i am "Interesting Jane."

For example, i imagine that at Scrabble someone from my past shows up and asks me how long i have been clean and sober, as if i have recovered from a storied past of being a heroin addict and everyone would have respect for me and be newly interested in me for kicking drugs and having lived thru such a wild experience.

Sometimes the fantasies are about my past and things i wish i had said. For example, my first boyfriend used me to advance himself socially. I could detect on our first date that that was his intention. I fantasize that i had called him on it that very night and not have let the relationship to progress and fester into it's painful conclusion.

I also fantasize that i had sat my ex-husband down when it was clear things had gone bad and just said, "We're at the end of the line. I know you can feel it. Let's get divorced."

The fantasies can get quite intense and i get a lot of satisfaction from them. I replay them over and over and imagine the exact dialogue. I've read that our brains respond with happy chemicals when we imagine happy things and i think this is true for me.

I so desire the fantasies that sometimes i try and induce them. I'll tell myself, "Let's have a fantasy now!" But i don't have much success inducing them. They have to be spontaneous.

I don't see it as maladaptive at all. Where is the harm? The question is always if the behavior impacts your functionality. My day-dreaming is very positive. It would only be maladaptive if you did it so much you were neglecting life functions, for example if you were not taking care of your hygiene because you were day-dreaming so much. I see it as a way of coping and giving myself a harmless hit of pleasure.

A charming Canadian movie about a schizophrenic's elaborate day-dreams of overthrowing the Newfoundland provincial government is "The Adventure of Faustus Bidgood," available online for free.

I love to day-dream!

Originally Posted by whatever2013

I like to sit quietly and wander in my thoughts, day-dreaming. It's very pleasant. Sometimes it gets more intense and i have fantasies. One theme i have noticed is where i am with a group i'm in and some new person arrives who knows me and we have a fantastic conversation that shows all the others that i am NOT "Boring Jane" like they thought, i am "Interesting Jane."

For example, i imagine that at Scrabble someone from my past shows up and asks me how long i have been clean and sober, as if i have recovered from a storied past of being a heroin addict and everyone would have respect for me and be newly interested in me for kicking drugs and having lived thru such a wild experience.

Sometimes the fantasies are about my past and things i wish i had said. For example, my first boyfriend used me to advance himself socially. I could detect on our first date that that was his intention. I fantasize that i had called him on it that very night and not have let the relationship to progress and fester into it's painful conclusion.

I also fantasize that i had sat my ex-husband down when it was clear things had gone bad and just said, "We're at the end of the line. I know you can feel it. Let's get divorced."

The fantasies can get quite intense and i get a lot of satisfaction from them. I replay them over and over and imagine the exact dialogue. I've read that our brains respond with happy chemicals when we imagine happy things and i think this is true for me.

I so desire the fantasies that sometimes i try and induce them. I'll tell myself, "Let's have a fantasy now!" But i don't have much success inducing them. They have to be spontaneous.

I don't see it as maladaptive at all. Where is the harm? The question is always if the behavior impacts your functionality. My day-dreaming is very positive. It would only be maladaptive if you did it so much you were neglecting life functions, for example if you were not taking care of your hygiene because you were day-dreaming so much. I see it as a way of coping and giving myself a harmless hit of pleasure.

A charming Canadian movie about a schizophrenic's elaborate day-dreams of overthrowing the Newfoundland provincial government is "The Adventure of Faustus Bidgood," available online for free.

I love to day-dream!

whatever2013, thank you so much for being willing to share about some of your personal daydreams! I know that I mentioned "maladaptive" a number of times, but I didn't expect many here to have that level of daydreaming. I was/am curious just to read if others' daydreaming is a means of coping with stress, part of bipolar episodes, and/or for other purposes. I'm glad you have positive experiences that help in healing or resolutions, of sorts.

I'm almost a little embarrassed to mention the story lines of some of my most intense daydreaming "series". Mine did include elation and/or attempts to feel I had power and strength again, and yet others were kind of extensions of struggle and frustration. Sometimes I wondered if I was making myself mentally unwell, part of my mental unwellness, or some attempt to do positive.

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

Thanks for the interesting article, bluebicycle! I'm glad you posted about that, because that makes me realize that I should be clear that I don't mean "wandering mind" in the sense of sitting in a class, but instead of paying attention to a teacher, rather thinking "I wonder what I want for dinner", "Do you think he might like me?", or "I think I'm not smart enough to get a good grade in this class." I'm more referring to daydreaming where one is actively creating stories in one's mind, like as if a movie or soap opera. Thinking through long scenarios or screen plays, of sorts, with extreme details of dialogue and mental images. I know all people do that to a small degree, but maladaptively is an extreme. I wonder if there is a differential, on the whole, between the amount of time and detail that many people with bipolar disorder daydream, at times, and those without bipolar disorder. When I refer to maladaptive daydreaming, it could be daydreaming almost non-stop for several hours in a day. Often to the point where when others are speaking to you, you are barely able to listen. Daydreaming in bed. In the bathroom. In a car. At work. Almost non-stop. Almost living or observing hours and hours of another life. Sometimes when that "story" is exhausted/finished, starting over again with perhaps a slightly different version, or moving onto something totally new. Perhaps forgetting to eat or bathe, at its worst.

Thanks for clarifying, BirdDancer.

I do recall having done that type of daydreaming you're talking about, but it was done when I was a kid, not nowadays.

In my case, I stopped doing it because I got in trouble in school and at home. I had become hyperaware of it and took measures to make sure I didn't do it anymore. (We're talking about teachers calling my parents, detention, bullying, my parents grounding me, etc..) However, I probably would still be doing it if I wasn't so hyperaware or if I didn't get in trouble so many times.

In thinking about it more, think that was more of an ADHD thing for me, and now that I'm on ADHD medication, the daydreaming doesn't really have a chance to happen anyways. So even if I did daydream to this day, I probably wouldn't be able to tease out whether it was an ADHD thing or a bipolar thing. (Sorry if that's not helpful.)

On another topic, I do find people with bipolar to be very creative, so I wonder if the daydreaming and "creative nature" of bipolar are connected in some way.
That is, perhaps daydreaming is one way people with bipolar are able to express their creativity when they aren't able to express it any other way.

[*Beth*]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

....The main difference is that a story line can proceed in a linear fashion, while my true manic racing thoughts are like fireworks or thoughts moving like multiple balls bouncing around.

Well put - yes!

[childofchaos831]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

I'm almost a little embarrassed to mention the story lines of some of my most intense daydreaming "series". Mine did include elation and/or attempts to feel I had power and strength again, and yet others were kind of extensions of struggle and frustration. Sometimes I wondered if I was making myself mentally unwell, part of my mental unwellness, or some attempt to do positive.

Ours are almost always struggle or frustration. Don't know why. We hardly ever daydream about good things. We sometimes use that daydreaming to act out things that we are wanting to do in real life but shouldn't... Kind of a way to keep ourselves from doing certain things. But we wonder the same thing... Is it keeping us sick to daydream about these things or is it helping in some way?

[Fuzzybear]

I like to daydream...

[bpcyclist]

Originally Posted by childofchaos831

bpcyclist and Birddancer,

We have PTSD and dissociation also, wonder if there's a connection there too?

Uh boy...

[Fuzzybear]

Originally Posted by bpcyclist

Uh boy...

I used to daydream a lot in school, not so much now though.

[FluffyDinosaur]

I do daydream quite a lot and quite intensely. Often it gets to the point where I dissociate and zone out for up to a few hours. I always experience this but it might be more pronounced during episodes, I'm not sure, I've never paid attention to that. What I do know is that the themes are episode-related. The "daydreams" can be more like nightmares when I'm depressed/mixed.

Often my daydreams are like an alternative reality to me. I have whole conversations with people in my head, and I'm closer to people that I like but am unable to reach out to in real life. It can be painful to go back to the real world and realize that's all a fantasy.

It's interesting to see that many other people here have similar experiences. Next to my bipolar diagnosis I have "schizoid features" and depersonalization/derealization, so I always assumed the daydreaming was related to that.

Originally Posted by FluffyDinosaur

I do daydream quite a lot and quite intensely. Often it gets to the point where I dissociate and zone out for up to a few hours. I always experience this but it might be more pronounced during episodes, I'm not sure, I've never paid attention to that. What I do know is that the themes are episode-related. The "daydreams" can be more like nightmares when I'm depressed/mixed.

Often my daydreams are like an alternative reality to me. I have whole conversations with people in my head, and I'm closer to people that I like but am unable to reach out to in real life. It can be painful to go back to the real world and realize that's all a fantasy.

It's interesting to see that many other people here have similar experiences. Next to my bipolar diagnosis I have "schizoid features" and depersonalization/derealization, so I always assumed the daydreaming was related to that.

Thanks for sharing on this topic, FluffyDinosaur! I could really relate to your description of your more intense daydreams.

The majority of my past intense daydreams included things that I lack in life, but wish I had. It's odd how during that daydreaming period, I felt I had them. It wasn't like when I "came to", so to speak, that I grieved not having them because of the daydreams.

I really do think that my period of maladaptive daydreaming was a result of grieving and a not so perfect attempt to heal from a period of trauma.

I know there is a line between healthy daydreaming and not so healthy. In my case, it was not so very different than a self-medication. I've self-medicated with various things over my life, many unhealthy things/actions. Even though I acknowledge that, it's still difficult to stop the tendency.

[FluffyDinosaur]

@BirdDancer: And thank you for bringing up this topic. It's something I've been thinking about lately.

In my case it may also be related to trauma. I have problems trusting and connecting to people as a result of childhood issues, and the daydreaming might be a way of coping with that. I guess that's why I originally attributed it to the schizoid features. But when I'm feeling good the daydreams can also take on a positive and creative quality, so maybe the trauma-related part is only one aspect of it.

[bpcyclist]

Just really a very interesting thread.

Originally Posted by FluffyDinosaur

@BirdDancer: And thank you for bringing up this topic. It's something I've been thinking about lately.

In my case it may also be related to trauma. I have problems trusting and connecting to people as a result of childhood issues, and the daydreaming might be a way of coping with that. I guess that's why I originally attributed it to the schizoid features. But when I'm feeling good the daydreams can also take on a positive and creative quality, so maybe the trauma-related part is only one aspect of it.

Your posts in this thread are particularly significant to me, @FluffyDinosaur. I mean, they are making me realize things about my own daydreams that I hadn't thought of.

I wonder if the daydreams during "feel good times" could even be related, to a degree, to the desire many of us have for the more elated hypomanic/manic feelings? Most all of us here know the appeal and sometimes yearn for it. Maybe it is us creating that, to a degree? This may sound silly, but often in the past, I have set off on what I call "pursuits of pleasure". Sometimes they actually even trigger hypomania/mania. Or, is it the other way around?

I.too, have some issues trusting and connecting with people (particularly other women) because of events that happened during my teen years (surrounding my first major bipolar episodes). It's a long story. When you wrote about this, it shocked me how we have this in common. Obviously, I don't know your story, but it created a connection for me, all the same. Thank you!

[FluffyDinosaur]

Originally Posted by BirdDancer

Your posts in this thread are particularly significant to me, @FluffyDinosaur. I mean, they are making me realize things about my own daydreams that I hadn't thought of.

I wonder if the daydreams during "feel good times" could even be related, to a degree, to the desire many of us have for the more elated hypomanic/manic feelings? Most all of us here know the appeal and sometimes yearn for it. Maybe it is us creating that, to a degree? This may sound silly, but often in the past, I have set off on what I call "pursuits of pleasure". Sometimes they actually even trigger hypomania/mania. Or, is it the other way around?

I.too, have some issues trusting and connecting with people (particularly other women) because of events that happened during my teen years (surrounding my first major bipolar episodes). It's a long story. When you wrote about this, it shocked me how we have this in common. Obviously, I don't know your story, but it created a connection for me, all the same. Thank you!

Thank you, and it's quite special to me as well to see how many similarities there are in our experiences. Like you, I've also observed this connection between the nature of the daydreams and (hypo)mania, and I've never been able to figure out with certainty which triggers the other. It's kind of similar for depression. In the past it sometimes made me feel like a fraud, as though I was just "making up" my bipolar episodes by kickstarting them with the daydreams somehow. Lately I've been leaning more towards the explanation that the daydreams are a result of the episodes, because I keep noticing how a (hypo)manic or depressive episode can change my entire outlook on life, even if objectively nothing in my life has really changed.