[Perna]

Originally Posted by Beana77

It feels like I'm playing a game, but I hate that everything is always on his terms.

You are playing a game called "tit for tat": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_tat

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by Beana77

Any last words for how to recover from this to make sure I don't repeat the same mistakes in the future? My therapist was so concerned about me she told me to come back tomorrow, and she's going to do some EMDR with me. I'm eager to work through some of this trauma.

A great question for your T. Mine basically said that I'm not ready yet. Then I had two disastrous relationships. Basically i fall for the wrong type of guys. So - if I find myself unable to stand being alone, I may approach somebody I've had my eye on but think of it in terms of 'Short term'. Not put any pressure on myself to make it last. Of course, working on my issues first would be better but then again, we weren't put on this earth to spend our lives alone. Of course, I've also got the problem of 'facing' my T when I go against his advice and things blow up on me.

[unaluna]

Well, SOME people I know said they were gonna wait till they fixed themselves before they got involved again and now the bloom is off the rose if ya know what I mean. I mean the smell is even off the potpourri, so don't wait too long. Sigh. Small steps I take that feel huge are asserting myself with my galpals when we make plans: initiating outings, not going if I don't want to, just not letting them boss me about the transportation plans! For example, last outing, my friend wanted to pick me up, but I felt it would be easier for her to drive straight there and me to take the bus. Plus she always stresses out over parking, so this way I didn't have to hear it, I had a little walk, and she had a much easier drive. But somebody listened to ME for a change! I mean, I can't even pick the movie when I go out with someone. EVER! So, depending where you are on THAT continuum...?

[cboxpalace]

Originally Posted by Beana77

I am definitely a glutton for punishment, no argument there.

It can be both a blessing and a curse for me to be right.. In this case it was a curse for me to be right.

However, I don't really have the option to be a masochist any longer because he has cut me off.

Lucky for you!!! This is the best thing I've heard all day...

The irony of that is almost too much for my already fragile self-esteem.

Trust me, he wasn't helping with your fragile self - esteem

But... I did provide the catalyst for his decision by telling him he makes me feel like **** about myself.

Good for you!!! It takes balls to do that!! Wait, your a girl, strike the balls. It takes guts to do that.. I'm soooooooooooo pc..

That was a big step for me because usually I refrain from sharing anything like this with him because he can't handle 1. Me talking about my feelings and 2. Any kind of criticism. So even though it was a small thing in the spectrum of standing up for myself, it was a step in the right direction. Deep down I knew it would make him go away.

It proves he really didn't give a **** about you, and that it was all about him... Take my attitude... **** him or He can go **** himself... Either works.. In fact just about anything that involves some variation of the word **** will more than likely work...

Ignore what I said above... I'm soooooo NOT politicallly correct (pc).
I was in denial earlier..

I don't think he's on this forum so no danger in him reading my posts (I hope). He may read what I wrote in the other forum but I don't really care at this point.

Neither would I!!! **** him... There's that word again...

So now I'm just licking my wounds and trying to learn from this experience. Hopefully I won't stay this jaded and fearful for long, because I would like to get out there and meet the right person.

This will happen when you develop self respect and realize that you don't deserve to be treated poorly by anyone.

The blunt truth is. .. You were making excuses. All this mourning process about needing to keep in touch with him during the holidays was a smokescreen for keeping him in your life. Mourning would've been you leaving him, and allowing yourself to go through the grieving process. There is no easy way to get over grieving.. It just takes time. He just did you a big favor!!! Hopefully, he'll keep his word at least until you're over him.

Thanks for all the great support everyone (cbox included).

definetely me!!!

Any last words for how to recover from this to make sure I don't repeat the same mistakes in the future? My therapist was so concerned about me she told me to come back tomorrow, and she's going to do some EMDR with me. I'm eager to work through some of this trauma.
Thanks!

It's me, of course I have wonderful advice. Stop making excuses for people when they treat you like ****. Believe it or not that DOESN"T help your self esteem issues. You need to realize that you don't deserve to be treated that way, and they need to be told to **** OFF. Yes it sucks, it hurts, and grieving takes times. Each day gets easier and in the end you'll be better off in several ways...

Yes I was a bit of a smart*** with this post, but if you look for it there's some serious answers in here...

Good luck to you, believe in yourself!!

[Beana77]

Once again, psychcentral didn't tell me I had replies. I thought you guys forgot about me!

Well... it's day 3 with no contact and I'm feeling stronger. I did some great work with my therapist on Thursday. We did EMDR and I'm having crazy revelations left and right about my parents and why I get so needy and clingy with men. The point is, this guy clearly wasn't the right guy, but I still need to look at my own maladaptive behavior in response to him. I don't want to drive the right guy away with neediness and paranoia, so I need to get to the bottom of why I do this. I'm not necessarily going to wait to be perfectly well adjusted before I attempt to date, but I would like to be slightly more evolved.

On a side note... I'm reading a book about narcissism that categorizes BPD as a form of narcissism with narcissism being the umbrella under which the other cluster B's fall. It's an interesting concept, but I'm only on page 20 and will report back when I've read more. I know most BPD's won't be keen on the idea of being narcissistic, but there is an element of narcissism in our behavior when we're hyperfocused on our own needs and feelings.

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by Beana77

The point is, this guy clearly wasn't the right guy, but I still need to look at my own maladaptive behavior in response to him. I don't want to drive the right guy away with neediness and paranoia, so I need to get to the bottom of why I do this.

Hmmmm... if it helped get rid of someone you wanted and needed to get rid of, maybe it wasn't entirely maladaptive!

On a side note... I'm reading a book about narcissism that categorizes BPD as a form of narcissism with narcissism being the umbrella under which the other cluster B's fall. It's an interesting concept, but I'm only on page 20 and will report back when I've read more.

Thanks for mentioning that. When you do report back, please tell us which book it is.

Btw, I tried searching for other mentions of Kernberg (etc.) and came across this post.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by Beana77

On a side note... I'm reading a book about narcissism that categorizes BPD as a form of narcissism with narcissism being the umbrella under which the other cluster B's fall. It's an interesting concept, but I'm only on page 20 and will report back when I've read more. I know most BPD's won't be keen on the idea of being narcissistic, but there is an element of narcissism in our behavior when we're hyperfocused on our own needs and feelings.

I think EVERYBODY'S focussed on their own needs and feelings. I think the difference is that others get their needs met, often by walking all over people like us. We don't get our needs met because we hate the people who do that to us. And we push away people who don't take advantage of us, because after all, they're nice and we feel like we don't deserve them. 'Do unto others as you would have others do unto you' used to work. Now it just means a) you're a martyr or b) you're selfish 'cause you expect something back or c) you're an idiot or d) YOU'RE BORDERLINE!

I just want a mutual relationship. One where feelings are reciprocal, kindness and respect go both ways, there is a fair distribution of time and/or resources with respect to living arrangements/kids/leisure time etc. Give and take, not give and give and not take and take. What is so narcissistic about that?

It will be interesting to see the reason why the author thinks we are narcissists.

[Beana77]

The book is "Narcissism" by Alexander Lowen, MD. Funny coincidence.... the cover has a picture similar to yours athena. When Narcissus refused to leave the spot where he could see his own reflection, he died and turned into a flower, the narcissus that grows at the edge of the spring. It's usually portrayed as a white flower, but it can be yellow too.

I don't really think that BPDs are narcissists, but the book is fascinating nonetheless. I think you're right about how our needs are like everyone else's, we just don't think we deserve to have them met so we act out. There is significant overlap with the Cluster B's, but this is the first time I've seen everything grouped under the umbrella of narcissism. The idea is that the baby has an unhealthy attachment to the mother so it never learns that the mother is a separate entity that exists for any other purpose than to serve its needs. The root of the childhood wound is a false self that was created in response to stress in the environment. At the least disordered side of the spectrum is an arrogant womanizer type and at the most disordered side is the paranoid psychopath. Borderline is in the middle.

What I think is maladaptive about my response is how I resort to a contentious, nasty tone when I feel rejected or abandoned. It's as if I believe I can shame someone into staying by my side, when it just pushes them further away. I don't want to do this with someone that is potentially good for me. I fear the response has been hardwired in my brain, but I have improved a bit. Three years ago I might have said, "I hate you, you're a prick!" With D, I didn't name call or get super nasty, so that's improvement I guess. However, one could argue that I was passive aggressively trying to illicit a guilty response, which isn't that much better. Baby steps as Bill Murray would say...

[unaluna]

Alexander Lowen! Wow! Was the book hand-copied by monks? We were reading him in college! Kudos to you, beana! I feel honored thrilled and impressed. I had a boyfriend who was just nuts about him.

[Beana77]

Yeah... it's pretty dense stuff, but I'm enjoying it. I'm about to venture on a road trip to LA and I'm sad I can't read more right now. It's kind of sad that I'd rather be reading about narcissism than road tripping to a friend's house. I do need the distraction, but I also need to delve into these issues. All in good time I suppose...

Happy New Year everyone!

P.S. I still need feedback so don't interpret my salutation as a conclusion to this thread. I'm doing better, but I still think about D way more than I should and I don't feel strong enough to tell him to **** off if he contacts me. However, the new year is as good a time as any to start fresh minus one toxic person. Cheers to everyone who's trying to embrace healthy habits in the new year!

[FooZe]

Alexander Lowen, Alexander Lowen... Oh, that Alexander Lowen! I remember him from The Language of the Body and The Betrayal of the Body, neither of which I was getting much out of the last time I put them down. I still have them -- way up on a top shelf where I have to stand on something to reach them. I wasn't following him when Narcissism came out so I missed it.

Happy New Year, and keep on posting -- on Lowen, or D, or life without D, or whatever else is up for you.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by Beana77

The book is "Narcissism" by Alexander Lowen, MD. Funny coincidence.... the cover has a picture similar to yours athena. When Narcissus refused to leave the spot where he could see his own reflection, he died and turned into a flower, the narcissus that grows at the edge of the spring. It's usually portrayed as a white flower, but it can be yellow too.

Kinda glad I turned myself from the 'Athena rose' into the Little Owl (Athene Noctua). Rather be a wise little owl floating on the updrafts than a prickly narcissist.

The book does sound interesting but I don't think I could bring myself to read a book that may make me think worse of myself than I already do.

[Fuzzybear]

[RonPSH]

Originally Posted by dubblemonkey

thanks matey...

I reckon we are all pretty smart...our minds are like magnificent machines...the thinking we do?...the doubts!...

all the doubting myself and my world made me a bit smart I guess...

(hehe...still doubting)

we are each and everyone pretty 'switched on'

I love ya man because you're switched on! You bring color to a flat world!

[RonPSH]

Originally Posted by dubblemonkey

what about what you deserve...?

thinking about others is a wonderful quality...and we tend to do it extremely well...with tremendous expense to ourselves, our lives.

I would consider perhaps...you are not responsible for this persons 'panic' reaction...it is much less, I suspect, than what a relapse would be like for you?

I am not responsible for how others 'feel'
even though I 'feel' like I am

thats what I am trying to do

I wrote this awhile back...

http://www.profound-self-help.com/tu...fish-ways.html

[Beana77]

Originally Posted by athena2011

The book does sound interesting but I don't think I could bring myself to read a book that may make me think worse of myself than I already do.

I hear that.

That statement however, kind of proves the point that you aren't a narcissist. True narcissists are a rare breed indeed. I don't know for sure that I've ever met anyone that fits the bill (clinically).

Back on point to the thread... I'm on day 6 of no contact with D and I'm feeling a bit stronger but still sad. I'm in the phase where it just seems really strange to me that he's freezing me out so harshly. I know I should be grateful for him to be out of my life, but that's just not where I'm at yet. I guess I just need time to make sense of it all in my head and let the memory of him fade.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by Beana77

Back on point to the thread... I'm on day 6 of no contact with D and I'm feeling a bit stronger but still sad. I'm in the phase where it just seems really strange to me that he's freezing me out so harshly. I know I should be grateful for him to be out of my life, but that's just not where I'm at yet. I guess I just need time to make sense of it all in my head and let the memory of him fade.

I had somebody cut me out really fast recently. Going out five months then, cut off - no contact whatsoever. No fight, no buildup, no explanation. But - it was the best thing he probably could have done for me. Things were going downhill, we weren't right for each other, he pulled the trigger. Showed his colours in the process. Took me two weeks to get over him. Not bad in my books. So here's to 8 more days (or less) of shell shock/suffering/whatever and then moving onto evaluating and learning from the whole situation so you can pick out all the warning signs, all the exit posts, all the opportunities to spare yourself and ultimately...discovering why you were wrong for each other. Then...figuring out - what ARE you looking for in a man? What are you willing to put up with? What are you willing to compromise on? What do you fear most in a man? What positive qualities are essential for you? What does your ideal man look like? How far off that ideal is acceptable to you? What constitutes 'settling' (to be avoided at all costs). Where does this ideal man hang out? Are you his 'ideal woman?' or do you have a bit of work to do on that front? Do you feel you deserve this 'ideal man'? What kind of man, knowing how you are - be the absolute WORST pick you could possibly make (get those runningshoes ready).

OK, like can I just print this off and answer all these questions for myself already?

[Beana77]

Originally Posted by athena2011

I had somebody cut me out really fast recently. Going out five months then, cut off - no contact whatsoever. No fight, no buildup, no explanation. But - it was the best thing he probably could have done for me. Things were going downhill, we weren't right for each other, he pulled the trigger. Showed his colours in the process. Took me two weeks to get over him. Not bad in my books. So here's to 8 more days (or less) of shell shock/suffering/whatever and then moving onto evaluating and learning from the whole situation so you can pick out all the warning signs, all the exit posts, all the opportunities to spare yourself and ultimately...discovering why you were wrong for each other. Then...figuring out - what ARE you looking for in a man? What are you willing to put up with? What are you willing to compromise on? What do you fear most in a man? What positive qualities are essential for you? What does your ideal man look like? How far off that ideal is acceptable to you? What constitutes 'settling' (to be avoided at all costs). Where does this ideal man hang out? Are you his 'ideal woman?' or do you have a bit of work to do on that front? Do you feel you deserve this 'ideal man'? What kind of man, knowing how you are - be the absolute WORST pick you could possibly make (get those runningshoes ready).

OK, like can I just print this off and answer all these questions for myself already?

Sounds like you might have a case of not being able to take your own advice. I have found the most gifted, intuitive advisors are often a mess about the very things they are advising on. I'm the same way. When it comes to my own ****, I have no friggin clue.

I've always heard that you have to be the person you want to date. I know, know, know that this is not the case for me right now. I'm out of shape, drink too much and have a bad attitude most of the time. I need to get my **** together.

The thing about this falling out with D is that it's really forced me to look at my behavior. I'm too needy and clingy once I get attached (usually when sex enters the picture). My habit of lashing out and getting nasty when I feel rejected really has to stop. It serves no purpose, it's just poor impulse control. I honestly don't know how to stand up for myself and set limits without going to the extreme and engaging in shaming, blaming tactics. I feel really sad that I hurt D with this behavior, even if he did deserve it to some extent. I basically shat all over a friendship I've spent the last 15 months building and nurturing. Yes, it's a dysfunctional friendship that briefly dabbled in romantic territory, but it was a legitimate, special friendship. I miss my friend, plain and simple. I've accepted that the romance isn't going to happen. I just can't stand to have him out there feeling mad, annoyed or disillusioned by me. I want to see his name pop up on my phone so badly. What is wrong with me?!?

[clouds_and_sun]

(((((((Beana)))))))))
I am so sorry this happened to you, just reading your situation brought tears to my eyes, and it pains me to say this cause this may NOT be what you want to hear but I am saying this to you cause I care and I KNOW it is a lot easier said than done, but you have to let him go, FIND something else to occupy your mind PLEASE, you do NOT need that kind of toxic behavior from that guy or anyone. I KNOW it hurts but I do promise in time things WILL get better in time, they will.
Keep posting here everyone is so supportive here. I am so sorry. [[[hugs]]]

[unaluna]

You both just have really bad boundaries? Katherine Anne (i think that's it, 2 first names, weird) has 2 books on boundaries, one on self-sabotage, I love her, I totally want to marry her. I bought extra copies of the sElf-sabotage book to give to friends, apparently that's not a flattering thing to offer! hmmph! but at least having bad boundaries sounds fixable, not so diseased - narcissist! dysfunctional!

[Beana77]

Thanks clouds and sun for the words of support. I was trying to remember what I wrote that could have moved you so and I'm thinking it may have been the miscarriage. Honestly, now.... I'm not so sure I had a miscarriage. There's no way to know for sure so early on and I strongly suspect it, but I NEVER should have told him about it. When something like that can't be verified with clinical certainty it's best not to share it. When I told my friend that I think I had a miscarriage and I told D about it, she said "what response were you trying to get from him when you shared that information". Yes, it's *****y, but she had a point. Maybe that was just my dramatic borderline side trying to stir things up and cause drama. Writing this is making my nauseous with myself, but it's good to come clean. Yes, I will never know the truth either way, but I have to face the reality that I may have invented this in my mind. Just google "I think I had a miscarriage" and you will find a bunch of hysterical women speculating about their late/irregular period and what they thought was a miscarriage. I will spare you all the graphic details of what they share and what I experienced, but regardless of how sure they were because of their hormones and women's intuition... the truth is that they will never know if they were ever pregnant. So... why did I tell D that I had a miscarriage? Attention? A last ditch effort to feel close to him? All the possible explanations are just.... sad.

Is this classic borderline behavior?

[Beana77]

Originally Posted by hankster

You both just have really bad boundaries? Katherine Anne (i think that's it, 2 first names, weird) has 2 books on boundaries, one on self-sabotage, I love her, I totally want to marry her. I bought extra copies of the sElf-sabotage book to give to friends, apparently that's not a flattering thing to offer! hmmph! but at least having bad boundaries sounds fixable, not so diseased - narcissist! dysfunctional!

Yes, we both have terrible boundaries. I need to read any book I can get my hands on about boundaries I'm sure. I have too many self-help books to hide already... I guess it does sound less diseased to just have bad boundaries, but I think my issues run WAY deeper than that.

I think it's hilarious that you bought books about self-sabotage for your friends. I would be stoked to be your friend and receive such a gift...

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by Beana77

The thing about this falling out with D is that it's really forced me to look at my behavior. I'm too needy and clingy once I get attached (usually when sex enters the picture). My habit of lashing out and getting nasty when I feel rejected really has to stop. It serves no purpose, it's just poor impulse control. I honestly don't know how to stand up for myself and set limits without going to the extreme and engaging in shaming, blaming tactics. I feel really sad that I hurt D with this behavior, even if he did deserve it to some extent. I basically shat all over a friendship I've spent the last 15 months building and nurturing. Yes, it's a dysfunctional friendship that briefly dabbled in romantic territory, but it was a legitimate, special friendship. I miss my friend, plain and simple. I've accepted that the romance isn't going to happen. I just can't stand to have him out there feeling mad, annoyed or disillusioned by me. I want to see his name pop up on my phone so badly. What is wrong with me?!?

Bouncing back and forth between extremes seems to go with BPD:

A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.

I discussed that in a little more detail here (and in the post right after that one).

[Beana77]

Originally Posted by FooZe

Bouncing back and forth between extremes seems to go with BPD:
I discussed that in a little more detail here (and in the post right after that one).

Thanks FooZe. I know I need to delve into the DBT, but my brain resists it. I started the Mckay workbook and I got annoyed with all the suggestions for things to do to self soothe. Like I don't know I have the option to go on a walk or call a friend when I'm upset? That's really not the issue. I know I need to practice mindfulness, but that seems like a really abstract concept to me right now. Do you have any tips for me to be more open to ways to practice distress tolerance, mindfulness and self-soothing? I want to get better at it, but it's like a person in an AA meeting feeling totally out of their element and in the twilight zone.

For instance... I just had three shots of whiskey just to calm down from how crazy I feel about D. I can't tolerate the pain I'm feeling from finally facing that I've been devalued and discarded. It ****ing sucks. People can't understand why I'm so upset because it wasn't a "real" relationship. This is as real as it gets for me right now because I'm so afraid of real intimacy. This is the only person I've connected with and let into my life over the past three years because I know how crazy I can get with a "normal" relationship. Sorry for all the quotes. So... that's where I'm at.

[FooZe]

Gotta run; I'll pick this up again later but right now...

Originally Posted by Beana77

I can't tolerate the pain I'm feeling from finally facing that I've been devalued and discarded...

I think the first thing you'll need to notice is that he's doing whatever he's doing, reacting to you however he's reacting, for whatever reasons of his own... and you're the one who's putting the meaning "devalued and discarded" on it.

I'm not arguing over whether you have or haven't been devalued and/or discarded -- just pointing out that there isn't a Great Big Book of Devalued and Discarded out there somewhere and D didn't just arrange for your name to be recorded in it for all time. You're feeling devalued and discarded (or you were). My favorite way out of that is into it and through it: to notice how I'm feeling, notice how else I might be feeling, relax into it, be there with it, see what it's about, what it reminds me of, let it go on its way, and see what's next. Your mileage may vary. As far as I can tell, it only works if you're willing.