[notablackbarbie]

Went to PTSD chat today at Psych Central (Thanks Crew and Sandworm and everyone else that was there). Talked about how to get over triggers, the past experience, abuse, and growing up with dysfunction...

I know I learned (the coping mechanism) that “best” way to resolve a situation is to apologize. Something that is wrong in some way = it is my fault, because I am bad = I am sorry (better apologize).

But I OVERDO THIS TO THE EXTREME (really apologize too much for one thing, or a just apologize for everything, mostly stuff I should not). Shame and Guilt are practically my middle names because i always think I’ve done something wrong or am wrong in some way. So i have to apologize.

But when is it actually necessary....? When do you feel it is actually necessary? Help me with your ideas....
Thanks.

[unaluna]

Just try to stop the HABIT of doing it. And then don't worry about it - from what i've read from your other posts (hello, btw!), YOUR conscience will definitely give you a nudge and let you know. You will just feel bad and feel the need to say something, and it will be about something specific, and you will know what to say to "make up" for it. Or the other person will let you know they were hurt by something you said or did, and so then you also should apologize. Within boundaries.

[sandworm]

An apology should be to 'get' you something like keeping the job, saving the marriage, if it is all that will do it, but only if it is all. the other times if it will save face, er. probably
not the right time to do it, morally speaking.
If sorry is something that shows you did something wrong, like spoke out of turn at
a forum (political, or something) because you were not the one called or
did something else like spoke vile to or about someone. or you do something you
know is intentionally mean, then later realize it was not called for, yeah. apologize.
stealing a friend's mate; spouse, will, that sort of not the time to apologize, you should
just start running cause the time for apologies. like 'whoops it was an accident'
will always be scorned and you hated. Nothing makes up for a huge thing like that.
If someone is greatly harmed by you or your offspring, yeah, apologize and try to
make sure the children know not to do those things again and why. (because you
have to take the heat).
My friend agreed to take me to a fair, i called him and invited a girl (sheri)
she called my friend's house and his mom answered and said she, sheri, was not
invited, just me and him(my friend).
My friend apologized with, "you need to understand, I forgot to tell my mom".

no, that is not an apology, and he can ONLY apologize in saying, well, that is mom.
sorry it is that way. and try to fix it best you can.
there is no> 'well nobody told me" because she was not even going with us. hummmph.

Hope that helps. I
have so much more input to, drop me a line email and I will send 4 pages,


The Sandy (pecan cookie)

[sandworm]

I am so glad you brought this question to board as I so often enter chat and almost always there will be some one who seems to be walking on egg shells around every comment. I
feel so bad for so many reasons. I see someone who's self-esteem is bruised, every color
and because it just breaks most of the go convo to a halt while we try to figure out
what this person is so making amends for some social "felony" when really...
no body noticed anything.
Love , what the world needs now is love, and mostly love of ourselves and the
beauty there.

Here is my article I wrote on the topic. WARNING, long one.
SSSSSSS


OK, here is a really challenging question for you. When should I apologize, and when should I not apologize.

There is also the implied question of what makes a good and proper apology.

Before I even get into when one should and when one should not apologize; I think it is important to deal with a few issues. number one, we can not be responsible for the other person: when can not expect them; no matter how little they need or how little they deserve (don't deserve) that
apology , for them to accept it, acknowledge it, or even like the words or delievery.
So, like some forms of warfare, just shoot and run. Apology and let it go.

Now, apologies come in a couple of different breeds. There is the "sorry",
or the "I am sorry".
and the "i apologize" which is much clearer. Then there are the many millions of little ways that people interact in their silly ways to make an apology sort of 'unspoken' and understood, without more than a glance or tip of the hat. The gaze that communicates a milliion things.

The "I apologize" is by most people reserved for the 'wow, I really blew it" and usually, depending on the level of relation that you have with the person you have, can include some sort of recap of
the simlpe version of what you did wrong. This "I apologize " can be replaced with the "sorry" or
"i am sorry". and the idea does get across.
In our technological world, a great example is Sindy, gossiping about her resentment over some slight, silly as it was, that Marsha has done to her. and this gossip goes on via an e-mail discusion with Tina, but instead of telling a part of this story to Tina , she (Sindy) accidently hits. send to all
and all her friends and most of Marsha's friends learn of this 'previously hidden' spat.
Such a thing can not be fixed by any measure of money or pleading on bended knee. A betrayal of trust has taken place. This is prime territory for an apology.
There are articles about the proper delievery and qualities of an apology, I will let you research those yourself.

Another place for the apology is the date, you promise to meet a friend and you then decide that it was a bad idea. perhaps you come down sick. this is a small issue. maybe not even needing any
amends. Just call them and explain, "hey, i can't make it , I am sick. next time". But if it is not a great friend, and it might even be for romance, or a job, or for work client, boss, or co-worker, or if the friend was 'somewhat or really counting on you showing, well then, an apology was /is well needed. Did you do anything 'wrong'? certainly not, you succum to the ravages of disease, which is only human. But you did fail to come through for whatever reason to meet another's expectaions. The apology is not because you failed your responsiblity but because 'life' intervened on the agreement between you preventing you for meeitng your end of the bargain. Some people will reject these apologies, that is their way feeling it is not appropriate. or that friends 'make allowances'. Some people will feel they have been betrayed personally, if you are sick, caught in traficc or otherwise postponed. These people will have the people around them get sick of their self-centered ways,blaming everyone for every inconvience in their lives. You may lose them as a friend or client today,or it may happen in years, but it was inevitable iwth this type of person who expects you to show, whether you are in the pink of health or on your pnumonia death bed.
LIFE happens, get over yourself.

There is the responsiblity of what youshould have done, law understand this and holds the perpetrator liable. and the responsibiity of what you should have not done and the law holds for those too. The sins of commion and omission, this are thigns that are a little hard to pin down in many peoples minds; where their 'duty' starts and ends with being the servant or savior for 'the other person.
What I use for myself is a little tool. a phrase. "I am not willing to work with the person who is not willing to do their part."
someone expects me to help them move, I say sure I would be willing to do that, could you pick me up just 15 minutes earlier. and swing by such and such house so I can get an item from Mick?" you say. Your pal agrees. Come the day of the move, he shows up at your door, 30 minutes late, you ask, why did you not show up at 9?" and you recieve a lame and obviously bogus excuse.
Do you apologize for putting him to the inconvince of having your pal drive out to Mick's, and make you all. 45 minutes late to your destination?
Not at all, your pal did not meet your bargain, and did it not because of 'circumstances beyond his control' but out of responsibilty. In such a situation, you may have to weight the boons and banes of doing the move for him, missing your collection from Mick, just to keep the friendship and the peace, OR you may decide to stick to your guns on the rights you have. In such a case your pal may need to expeirence some reprecussssions for his blithe attitude to your time, respect you are due, and a dozen other considerrations. You would probably, if you pal was really just being a tool, be justified in telling him, "you are seeking to break the bargain we had, you are not meeitng me half way, and since you are not willing to respect my generiouisty, time, and give me the respect due. I regretfully have to leave you to make this move without my aid/assistence or effort."
Such tough love and consequencies is the thing certain people need if they have failed to 'grow up.'
In this case, an odd apology of , sorts is probably in order. But there is the implied and infered apology of (and UNSPOKEN) "you have to learn your lesson, sorry time to grow up".

These are not pleasant for anyone, unless you have been carrying them TOO long, or you are a narcisis of sorts.

There is the others of *social conviention* and for some reason, many people turn these away. It is a mystery I have not quite learned to accept yet.
The cousin, friend, co-worker tells you that something horrible happened or someone died or they were scammed for some car repair or they got sick as a dog the day before and missed work for it. You reply; "oh, I am sorry" and invariably will be heard "well it wasn't *your* fault.".
It is a snub, as if to say, your sympathy, not welcome. My advice, learn, get over it, move on. These people failed to learn or habitualized to dismiss this social practice form of empathy/sympathy.

You are not really apologizing because you had anything or any power to make things different. you are expressing your wish that this 'tradgey had not befallen them. shame on the universe, or the theif of a mechanic.

There are the places of misunderstandings, you say, one word or phrase or some 'bit' of what you say or wrote is taken out of context. In such situations it can get to be quite a *pickle* and impossible to wrangle out from under. Especially with boss, co-worker or intimates.
In these sitations the benefit of smoothing things over (perhaps with the lie of an apology) because the true and deep intangibility of some percieved treason could never really be expained wihout making things horribly worse. The best thing come be to apologize and move on. It also may be stored as some ammo for future wars of emotion this person may wage against you. The pluses and minuses have to be weighted on their own merit in each situation. in combination with YOU owning if you did have any blame in the misunderstanding.

When you DO NOT owe an apology, even though you may wish to give one for expendencies sake of saving the marriage, relationship, job,or money; is when you are in the right.

There is the booze apology, "I was drunk, sorry I knocked your daughter up.".
This one is pretty tricky, those situations where you were not in possesion of your faculitites.
I have no opinion to share on this one as it can be really triggering. (HINT HINT)

.....,,**

Once, I was being relieved of my position on a job site, for the shift. My co-worker and relief, come up, chatterying like a parrot who just learned to talk, yap, yap, yap away for half at hour, while I tried to remember 5 complex things to 'hand him down' on his work tasks for the (his) upcoming shift. True as rain, I did get peeved after asking, then telling him,to be quiet, which turned into ' shut the F** up" in sharpy on a paper.
I went and did his job for him, since he would not 'be silent' and take his job agenda for the day. When I returned he shut the door blocking me in the room and threatned me 'physcially' with intent to do harm.
I had my boss sort things out and it was decided. mistakes had been made on both sides. I was told by boss, you should apologize to him.
For the sake of money, I do agree, apologize or risk losing my job, or future promotion. For the sake of right and wrong, words, ALMOST never, should be cause or justification for escalating to physical blows or injury OR restraint.
Since his was the greater infraction, it was his to apologize to me, if only one of us did apologies. What transpired was me apologizing for my 'obscenities' and he apologized for "ME MISUNDERSTANDING'. This is all petty, because no loss of money, or limb was made. He did however, violate my sense of safety. That alone deserved some token.

His apologizing that "I misunderstood" is the height of childish selfish arrogance.
His failure to have any awareness that an "i am sorry' was due, is stupidity in paramount'.

These cover almost all places in which the 'i am sorry' might show and they are myrid, from the social conviention of "i did nothing wrong and you know it, and you know that I know that you know, but it is just a sad bit of LIFE". to the "OH %$^% SHAZBOT". to the "whoops, I got sick" to the "well, what a cute little misunderstanding, thing happen and I might have been perfectly overseeing every detail of everything imaginable but was not".

This I think pretty much covers all the things i have seen or needed to do, or should have been apologized to for.



YOURS Sandy

[siljie]

I unfortunately know so much of how you feel. I'm diagnosed with PTSD as well, and through the abuse that I suffered I was forced to believe the dirt that was spewed at me every day - that I'm not good enough, this wouldn't have to happen if you weren't so weak, it's all YOUR fault, etc... And even the aftermath part of me scolds myself and tells myself I wouldn't be so messed up if I had gotten out of the situation early on.

My therapy has helped me realize that it's not my fault and such but I still have those intrusive thoughts. You're also experiencing toxic guilt, which I know much about as well... I don't know your situation, but even if you are guilty in some way, I think you're subconscious is probably exaggurating it, as it does, which makes you feel even more suffocated than you should... You can work through this. I wish you the best of luck

[Open Eyes]

I know I learned (the coping mechanism) that “best” way to resolve a situation is to apologize. Something that is wrong in some way = it is my fault, because I am bad = I am sorry (better apologize).
~quote notablackbarbie
Wait a minute, where did you learn this? Is that not the same as saying "Excuse me for living!"?

Yes, if you offend someone, or are short tempered in some way because your having a bad day, than an appology is in order. We all do that from time to time, and it can be very common if someone with PTSD is triggered. I have caught myself snapping back and then I realize I was triggered and snapped back and it was because I was triggered. And that is something I am recognizing about PTSD that I am working on, especially with my husband because he CAN push my buttons.

But the other thing about PTSD that does happen is there already is a deep sense of personal guilt because the PTSD CAN be so overwhelming at times. And that is another part of PTSD that one who has it has to be aware of and make efforts to catch it and correct it whenever they can. I have found myself that when I am having a bad day and can't seem to function I appologize alot to my husband. And he has had to learn how to react better to me, because in his case, he is so used to me being such an incharge person that he doesn't understand WHY I am now struggling, and I have had trouble understanding it myself. Most people with PTSD do struggle with that question and ask "when am I going to be my old self again?".

Now, with your history notablackbarbie of abuse, your probably so used to immediately appologizing that it is now a tough habit to break, as you have noticed. But your going to have to learn how to overcome that. And you can work on that here at PC. Now when I post my opinion on something and another person doesn't agree, because it is all in writing, I can look at the conversation and actually make a decision to wether or not I was justified in my opinion or I may have offended someone. And that is a really good media to learn in, because you CAN learn to leave you words and opinions out there, even if your triggered into wanting to run and delete your post. I have felt that too, I have been triggered and HAVE deleted my posts. And then sometimes I MAKE myself leave my opinion out there. Because I DO have the right to my opinion. It isn't always easy, but PC does give me a chance to work on that.

Sometimes another thing that can happen with PTSD is that I found I can read something and need to answer it, and sometimes I am triggered by the question not truely realizing it. I may interpret it wrong and that happened to me just the other day. I had read a quesiton and then I did post an answer and then later in the day actually had a flashback and went back and posted more. And I got a little too forceful in my post. I basically had to let it sit because the time to edit had passed. But I learned something from that, something about how I CAN get triggered in a way I hadn't realized yet.

So, you already know that you appologize too much, and your figuring out that it is because of your past. So that is the first step, then what you have to do is when you interact with others "slow down" and stop that urge to appologize, it really takes time because some people do it a lot. And I see that often here, especially when people first join PC, ask a question and their post isn't that long but at the end they appologize. I think that is sad and tells me that person needs support.

Keep trying notablackbarbie, but you do not have to resolve everything with an appology. If you have a valid opinion, than don't appologize, your entitled to your opinion.

(((((Hugs)))))
Open Eyes

[MsMesuggah]

Apologies to me should be heart felt... if not they are just words used to placate the other person temporarily. If you are "totally" wrong, then by all means ask for forgiveness for the error in your behavior. If you are feeling the need to repair a relationship... well think about the reason for the situation requiring one or the other needing to apologize. Sometimes when we find ourselves needing to "apologize" more often than not... examine the relationship in which this occurs. Are you really being truthful with yourself and the relationship is "REALLY" over or are you trying to make everything be "right" until the next disagreement which leads to a few heated words. Follow your heart and it will lead you to the "best" response when it comes to offering an apology. Just don't apologize because you have an issue with being a "people pleaser". A "REAL" friend will accept your
desire to make amends and you both can learn and grow from the situation.

Shalom

[Perna]

Apologies are for ourselves. I only apologize when I feel I have done something specific that I wish I had not done.

Apologies don't have to be about being "sorry" either and blaming. You can, "wish I had known that sooner," when someone corrects a perception fact you had that wasn't correct or, "I'll see what I can do so it doesn't happen again" when you do something that bothers another that's small and you wouldn't mind changing (my husband would get annoyed because I'd unbuckle my seatbelt and let go and the buckle would rise up too quickly and the metal part sometimes struck the window! I trained myself to hold on after unbuckling and guide it up so it didn't hit the window rather than listen to him complain :-)

Apologies are about getting along with people you care about. "Love means you never have to say you're sorry" is correct, in a way, if you and someone love one another then the disappointments and errors can be shared and one doesn't "have to" say anything, the other is "there" and aware.

But mostly I use apologies to let the other person know that I heard them and to remind myself that X bothers them or that I accidentally stepped over a boundary, etc. One can't know one has stepped over most boundaries until the other says so and an "Oh, sorry!" is just an acknowledgement that you now know where the boundary is.

The easiest "I'm sorry" to get rid of first if you're too free with them is probably those that aren't about you? If someone else is hurting, think of something more original and personal to say than "I'm sorry"? Try to unconfuse your stuff from theirs. "That sounds difficult to cope with" or, "I hope it gets easier for you soon, let me know if there is anything I can do to help" is more compassionate-sounding to me than a "sorry" feeling-sorry for another phrase?

Apologies are about what matters to you, not to the other person! Just because the other person doesn't like something you say or do, that does not make you or what you say or do wrong! The other person does not get to run your life. I work very hard here at PsychCentral to say what I mean and I don't delete things or take them back, etc. I support myself 100% and that there are others who take what I say wrongly (and I then try to clarify) or that I sometimes misspeak (at which time I acknowledge and correct it but I'm not "sorry" I made a mistake; you cannot learn without them!) or people who disagree with what I say; none of those are "offenses" of another that need apologizing for.

[sandworm]

Thank you everyone for your dissenting views (dissenting from mine in
some ways great or small). It creates such diversity and wisdom to
peculate with a person to make each person their own unique self.


Sandee.
----------.

[notablackbarbie]

...and to try practicing *when it is needed to apologize* i'll just update you all without saying 'im sorry'. Ive been in the hospital since last week thursday, had a whole pile of tests done, then had surgery on monday. Being sick, having surgery, and now staying in the hospital is not my fault. <<<That is what ive been told and explained, and understand now; this is just what happened, and am now just here...Its kinda nice just being *here* and not worrying. Im also just away from the house, so...again i am just here Thank you everyone for your input and feedback = gently all here

[sandworm]

Originally Posted by notablackbarbie

...and to try practicing *when it is needed to apologize* i'll just update you all without saying 'im sorry'. Ive been in the hospital since last week thursday, had a whole pile of tests done, then had surgery on monday. Being sick, having surgery, and now staying in the hospital is not my fault. <<<That is what ive been told and explained, and understand now; this is just what happened, and am now just here...Its kinda nice just being *here* and not worrying. Im also just away from the house, so...again i am just here Thank you everyone for your input and feedback = gently all here

I hope you are feeling well and getting better.

Sandee