[DechanDawa]

Today my brother sent me an email and said I was selfish, self destructive, and irresponsible and that I should just kill myself. I know he is a sociopathic narcissist but what if he is right?

What if I don't have a mental illness. What if I just have character flaws?????

How can you tell the difference????

I have tried everything to get well and frankly nothing has worked. Along the way I have developed a lot of self hatred.

Today I was thinking that perhaps I have a spiritual problem and should seek a spiritual solution.

[Skeezyks]

Hello Dechan: What an awful thing for your brother to say! I'm so sorry. Your post struck a chord with me. I have often wondered the same sort of thing about myself. I have often said to myself (& even written a few times here on PC) I hope it could be said that I've been mentally ill my whole life. Because, if not, then that means I must have simply been a "bad seed".

I think, to some extent, having a "character flaw" or simply being a "bad seed" (as I've termed it) are just newer versions of old religious prejudices that suggested people could be "evil". At one time people believed other people were under the control of evil forces... the devil... or what ever. Then later on, as society became slightly more enlightened, the idea of being "evil" in a religious sense went by the wayside & instead it became fashionable to say that a person has a "character flaw".

But really... all of these terms basically are just ways of explaining the outward manifestations of mental illness... if that makes any sense. In other words, saying a person has a character flaw is just another way of saying the person has a mental illness. The unfortunate part of concepts such as "evil" or "character flaw" is, it seems to me, that these sorts of terms suggest that there is nothing to be done... no hope... whereas saying a person has a mental illness at least holds out the hope that treatment could be possible... even if the treatments that are currently available aren't effective.

So I guess what I'm suggesting is that the term "character flaw" is just another way of saying a person has a mental illness... which is... to me... simply a way of saying that the person's brain functions differently than most people's... perhaps in a way that is looked down upon by society... perhaps in a way that is less conducive to success in the everyday world. My personal opinion is there's no ghost in the machinery. Our mental processes are simply the result of neurochemical activity in the brain which is influenced to some extent by genetics & to some extent by life experience. So I don't really buy the idea that there could be something such as a character flaw that is somehow different from & perhaps even worse than having a mental illness.

I know a thing or two about self-hatred. (There's a lot I never talk about here on PC... a lot I don't even understand.) I don't know about a spiritual solution. I'm not sure I even understand what that would look like. Since I don't believe there is a ghost in the machinery I'm not very conversant with spirituality in general. But mental health treatment has not really done anything for me either. That is why I have turned to the Lojong practices. I don't recall where the specific quote is located. But in one of Pema Chödrön's books she says that bodhisattvas are to be found among thieves, prostitutes & murderers. That being the case, I presume there's hope for me too.

[DechanDawa]

After my brother said this he immediately disowned me and told me he would not open any emails from me.

Sigh. This is a long standing practice in my family. I am older and have no patience for this ritual disowning of blood relatives. Just makes me feel ill and irritable.

If I have a character flaw it might be that I can be overly dramatic. If my brother wanted to be kind he might have said, "Look here, you may feel like your world is crashing down on you but you have my support and you will pull through this."

i do label my brother as a malignant narcissist and my mistake was breaking No Contact. Since he has disowned me he has done me the favor of establishing a new No Contact situation.

It's all very sad and since this post I have been enlightened by other members that I am probably the family scapegoat.

I love spirituality and don't see it as there having to be ghost in the machinery. I just see it as elevating myself to a higher meaning in life than negative family dynamics.

[Cyllya]

Sorry your brother's a jerk

As for the question, I'm not too sure there even is a very strong distinction. Your personality/character is part of your mental health, so a mental illness messes it up. It's like asking "is it a gastrointestinal disorder or a stomach flaw?"

But I guess you could say a mental illness is a more extreme version of a character flaw, and it's like a spectrum without a clear cut dividing line. How spacy do you have to be before it's ADHD? How sad do you have to be before it's a depressive disorder? How short do you have to be before it's Pathological Short Stature? How sleepy do you have to be before it's narcolepsy? The diagnostic criteria for those conditions defines the exact "cutoff." It's pretty subjective, unfortunately, but if you have been diagnosed, the professional who diagnosed you decided you were on the mentally ill side of the line.

According to psychology (not psychiatry?) the criteria for considering something a disorder or symptom of a disorder is that it fits all these criteria:

• Maladaptive - it's bad for you.
• Unjustifiable - i.e. if you're feeling fearful when you're about to be mauled by a grizzly bear, that doesn't mean you have an anxiety disorder.
• Disturbing - it upsets you or someone else.
• Atypical - most people don't have the trait or don't have it as much.

It seems the DSM-IV (psychiatry) says this: "In DSM-IV, each of the mental disorders is conceptualized as a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event, for example, the death of a loved one. Whatever its original cause, it must currently be considered a manifestation of a behavioral, psychological, or biological dysfunction in the individual. Neither deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) nor conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict is a symptom of a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by Cyllya

Sorry your brother's a jerk

As for the question, I'm not too sure there even is a very strong distinction. Your personality/character is part of your mental health, so a mental illness messes it up. It's like asking "is it a gastrointestinal disorder or a stomach flaw?"

But I guess you could say a mental illness is a more extreme version of a character flaw, and it's like a spectrum without a clear cut dividing line. How spacy do you have to be before it's ADHD? How sad do you have to be before it's a depressive disorder? How short do you have to be before it's Pathological Short Stature? How sleepy do you have to be before it's narcolepsy? The diagnostic criteria for those conditions defines the exact "cutoff." It's pretty subjective, unfortunately, but if you have been diagnosed, the professional who diagnosed you decided you were on the mentally ill side of the line.

According to psychology (not psychiatry?) the criteria for considering something a disorder or symptom of a disorder is that it fits all these criteria:

• Maladaptive - it's bad for you.
• Unjustifiable - i.e. if you're feeling fearful when you're about to be mauled by a grizzly bear, that doesn't mean you have an anxiety disorder.
• Disturbing - it upsets you or someone else.
• Atypical - most people don't have the trait or don't have it as much.

It seems the DSM-IV (psychiatry) says this: "In DSM-IV, each of the mental disorders is conceptualized as a clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual and that is associated with present distress (e.g., a painful symptom) or disability (i.e., impairment in one or more important areas of functioning) or with a significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, disability, or an important loss of freedom. In addition, this syndrome or pattern must not be merely an expectable and culturally sanctioned response to a particular event, for example, the death of a loved one. Whatever its original cause, it must currently be considered a manifestation of a behavioral, psychological, or biological dysfunction in the individual. Neither deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) nor conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict is a symptom of a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."

I had an assessment by a psychiatrist last fall and he refused to give me a diagnosis. He said I was anxious and depressed because of circumstances i.e. unemployed, socially isolated, not great coping skills. He said I should get help to strengthen coping skills and see a counselor. My depression got worse and turned into suicidal ideation. I am not functioning very well.

My brother seemed to think I was just being mentally lazy and irresponsible and attention seeking. Since he cut me off I will never know what he meant. This is really what I hate about narcissists. They are not really interested in anyone and will not have a dialogue unless it somehow feeds their ego.

Since character flaw seems to be a loaded term I will just say that maybe I am weak in certain areas. My main problem that seems to have caused all problems is that after my divorce and being empty nested I have been kind of been forced to live alone. In the past I have lived alone never more than a year. This has been going on for several years and I have become more isolated.

I think I need to just force myself to change. Living alone is literally driving me crazy. This also seems to prove to me that I am mentally weak. If I need change I have to motivate myself to make change happen. No one is going to do it for me. When I was younger I could manage change much better than I do now. I even think I managed being single better when I was young. I have dated since the divorce but every guy seemed creepy on some level. Very sad but true as I was open to the idea of a new relationship. But I never met anyone. Also many guys my age were dating and marrying women 10 and 20 years younger. It seems to be a trend in my town. For the life of me I don't understand it. I mean when I was young I liked men my age.

My brother can go to hell with his judgmental attitude. I refrained from judging him and one could have a heyday attacking his lifestyle and values. But I am not into doing that. I mean it is so rude and what does it prove? Hurting people is just not needed.

(((Dechan))) I am sorry that he said those cruel things to you.

Wish I could say something to help but I don't have the words - Skeezyks says it so much better than I ever could.

[MickeyCheeky]

Wow, your brother has been terrible I'm really sorry, please don't listen to him You're clearly doing the best you can and it's not your fault for feeling the way you do

[Thunder Bow]

Drama such as that seems to run in your family. No you are not mentally ill. Best to keep your distance, and stay out of the drama if you can.

Your brother sounds like a piece of work. I don't necessarily agree with what ThunderBow said, though. If you have a diagnosis, you are ill, and also in many cases when one doesn't have a diagnosis, too. However, mentally ill does not equal selfish, self-destructive, or irresponsible. Your brother seems to be a narcissist, hate to say, but it may be true. Those kinds of people almost never change; they often end up being very lonely people, because nobody can stand them. I would suggest not giving your brother any of your time from here on out. Please use that time instead to look after yourself well and care for yourself, you are worth it. Mental illness is not a character flaw, but a problem which many face, You deserve to be taken seriously.