thoughts (?)

".. it is a commonly noted aspect of the experience of depression that we are involved in the question of guilt, the issue of our wrongdoing, our sin. To reconceptualize the condition as an illness is one way of reordering our view of it so that the issue of responsibility and guilt does not arise either in our minds or in the minds of our relatives and friends".

Dorothy Rowe

any thoughts?

i think you are talking about the undoing of compounded feelings of self esteem issues and others relative to the depressive experience... my thoughts are that we do ourselves no kindness in compounding guilt or other feelings.. what we are looking for are ways to undo complex and inter-associated feelings that cause us to feel poorly within our own space... first i think we need to forgive ourselves for feeling as we do... next we want to establish feelings of self worth... being at PC lets us grow a positive self image in the way that we use our own experiences from our pasts to help others deal with some current problem we might have had experience with in our own way... befriending and helping others who are alone and having difficulty lets us feel that even tho we have been blamed and accused, we have something of value to give from our experiences.. helping others is our departure from harming ourselves... just my thoughts, good question ((( fuzzy))))

Hello Fuzzy,

I would say that depression is an 'illness' as meaning 'diminished function' because of what I've read. I've a book called 'Mapping the Mind' by Rita Carter (and it's really interesting), and in that she says that the brain of a depressed person behaves differently to the brain of a non-depressed person. In depressed people, parts of the brain were found to be underactive, such as the parts which creates self-willed actions, and a part which controls attention and interest in external affairs which suggests, she says, why depressed people tend to be pretty self-absorbed. The brain's 'emotional control centre', as she describes it, is also underactive. And another scientist reckons that over-active parts of the brain keep in place a sequence of events which ensure the continuation of depression. It isn't explained why depression gets better though ...

(((Fuzzybear)))

Hi, Fuzzybear!

I've read just about zero self-help literature. Someone with knowledge of the works of Dorothy Rowe could offer a much better commentary.

Of course, not being one to let ignorance stand in my way...

My understanding is that Dr. Rowe is a well-known psychiatrist and prolific author. She is somewhat a maverick in rejecting the biological construct of depression, instead seeing depression rising out of dysfunctional thinking. From her perspective, people want to hold on to beliefs that the world is “just” and controllable: we can be in control of our lives and by doing “good” and “proper” things we'll be rewarded accordingly. In contrast, Dr. Rowe views the world as genuinely chaotic and only minimally controllable by anyone; no one is guaranteed good results from good behavior or habits.

In that light, this is how I'd reword the above quote:

“By labeling depression an 'illness' we rationalize away guilt and personal responsibility so we don't look bad to ourselves, our families and friends.”

The implication is (?) that the way out of depression is to recognize we're not really ill; we're thinking wrong, we hold unfounded values. Our inner torment springs from our refusal to accept the world isn't fair and won't meet our expectations.

Clarification: The above is my understanding of the Rowe quote; I am not expressing my own opinion.

I like what Rohag said on this one...

as far as I agree or disagree with it...
I think depressed people get down on themselves WAYYY too much for small mistakes they've made. I do it all the time. Feelings of worthlessness is one thing that we all have to work on, I think. We can't get about our day if we're wallowing in self guilt and can't stand up for ourselves.

However, I do think that some depressions have medical causes and NEED medication to get started on the path to recovery at the very least. So completely discounting the use of meds, well I can't support that either

I hate to think what I'd feel like without my happy pills .
Not really sure if I'm up for that one .

The question of guilt, "Is it my fault I am depressed. Am I guilty of causing it? Have I done something bad?"

If yes, then I am responsible for what has happened and in order to be "good" I must get "well" and I continue to be "wrong" somehow if I don't.

She mentions that one way of getting out of the above conclusion is to say we're sick, that we couldn't help it. A possible conclusion to that, then, would be that we don't have to fix ourselves, that we can't, and our families and friends should back off because we're ill, darnit!

If Rohag is right, and she favors the idea the we are depressed because of wrong thinking, I have to wonder where guilt plays in then. Is it our fault that we have wrong thinking? What if that wrong thinking was learned from friends and family? What if we are genetically pre-disposed to wrong thinking? What if we can't learn right thinking without medication? What if we can? What if we chose to be "sick" and will stay there because we chose it? What if we can rise out of it and be responsible for our care? What if there are multiple factors and not just one?

Okay, lots of thoughts, not all my opinions. My opinion is more along these lines:

There are biological components to depression.
There are learned components to depression.
There are unconcious detrimental choices we make for self-preserving purposes, sometimes even "sinful" choices, if you want to go so far.
There are choices we sometimes "have" to make, the lesser of two evils, so to speak.
Medications are often good, usually helpful, sometimes absolutely necessary.
Changing the way we think/cope is a must.
Having supportive and not blaming friends/family is a must.
Having these friends/family members know us well enough to know when we're bulls****ing ourselves/others about parts of our depression is a must.
Taking Tumnus' words with a grain of salt and not getting angry about said opinions is greatly appreciated.

I guess I feel like making lists today. Thanks for making me think a little.

Wow!! (((((((Everyone))))))) A really impressive intellectual exchange here, folks. I really have nothing to add other than to say that regardless of the cause or categorization, we are all responsible for doing whatever we can to "treat" our depression for our own sakes as well as others - and we are all doing just that - so kudos to us!!!!

(fuzzy)))))))))))))))) Im sure somebody has said this. I think sometimes growing up guilt is instilled in us while young. I can remember being young and being made to feel guily because i was sick as in chicken poxs or what ever. Its something all of us have experencienced and have to work very hard to over come it.
My sister and i call it the "guilt issue"
There is only one thing i am responsable for as far as guilt goes ..its my own actions.
If i become ill thou..Im not guilty

We are all good ppl here and my friend you matter very much as (everyone))) here does......that is guilt free Love my friend. Given to you and everyone ..no strings attached.

You have to work it out in your own mind. There's also the question of the outside world. "Illness" is something people believe or they don't. I don't worry about whether it's an illness or not; I just know it is, which is something my family never figured out. (If family support is key, I'm s.o.l.) Sometimes I just think it's best not to worry about labelling and just deal with it -- try to put the "fun" back in dysfunction and all that -- but you have to deal with labels, because the outside world does, too. So does "illness" do us any favors or not? I don't know.

Depression has little to do with 'guilt' or 'sin', that's a silly notion. .....I Hope YOU are doing well Fuzzy!!!