[flours]

years ago at a psychology class I learned that people with depression actually see things too realistically and normal people are usually a little more optimistic then reasonable.

does anyone know if this is true?

-I know this is not a good thing to write. it's probably wrong anyway.

[Altered Moment]

I have heard those theories. For me it is not true. I am practical and realistic but generally very optimistic by nature. Optimistic even in the face of my harsh realities. Don't get me wrong though I have huge anxieties about my personal realities but I always see the good in others and am optimistic about society, the world and life.

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[Onward2wards]

I've given this some thought as well. The optimism bias is technically a bit unrealistic when you think about it, BUT it keeps people trying until they objectively succeed, which is very helpful. Talk about a positive self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
If you accept that depressive thinking is actually unpleasant but objective realism, I have to ask myself - why does the person usually assume a circumstance is also unchangeable? Yes its horrible, its demoralizing, life isn't fair, etc. etc. BUT ... wouldn't it be adaptive to be an "active pessimist", in other words accept an unpleasant reality but then ALSO strive hard to improve it? It's the double whammy of a loss of useful optimism AND passivity or learned helplessness that makes a depressive state so devastating.

[Notoriousglo]

I don't see why it isn't a good thing to write. I think it's a very real possibility. I always am mentioning how I am so realistic. Although perception is reality...so your negative perception could be unrealistic for others. It's subjective. Good post!!

[flours]

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

I've given this some thought as well. The optimism bias is technically a bit unrealistic when you think about it, BUT it keeps people trying until they objectively succeed, which is very helpful. Talk about a positive self-fulfilling prophecy, right?

thanks for giving me the term. so I could look it up.

I understand this is very much a practical tool for action. optimism bias helps to do things because you need to believe you can succeed and control things.
so you feel free. it's a driving force.
this makes a lot of sense.

I think my teacher explained it very simplified.

depressive people may lack that. but that lack doesn't explain negative judgment in the present and past. just expectations for the future. so it's just a part of of the distorted perception. overall it may not be more realistic. just in specific ways.

like if I say "nothing good happened today" may mean I didn't care about the good things but they still happened.

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

... wouldn't it be adaptive to be an "active pessimist", in other words accept an unpleasant reality but then ALSO strive hard to improve it?

what you describe would be someone who is extremely careful or controlling. probably thinking about everything that can go wrong will eventually be overwhelming and paralyzing. because you cannot oversee it all.
sounds more like some anxiety issue.

[LastQuestion]

A massive celestial object orbiting our local star, Sol, and the gravitational influence of Jupiter leads to the outcome of that body intersecting the orbit of Earth and the sterilization of all cellular automata processes operating within the body of matter we refer to as a planet. The Earth is devoid of "life", and that would be perceived as "bad" from the perspective of most humans. Yet, objectively it is neither "good" nor "bad" but merely the parameters of the Cosmos in operation.

When someone makes a determination of good or bad they are merely subjectively perceiving the interactions within their environment in relation to their frame of reference as part of that environment. Their subjective perception are bio-chemical processes which occur as a result of the same parameters in the Cosmos that could lead to the outcome "sterilization of all life on Earth." What we can refer to as the concept good or bad is merely the Cosmos in operation.

What is good are the things which benefit us. Benefit is determined by what enables our process of cellular automata to continue operation. In most this goes hand in hand with bio-chemical interactions known as happiness, joy, meaning, purpose, intent, etc. To say the perception of a depressed mind is distorted in relation to what is objective is an incorrect conclusion.

The perceived reality of a depressed mind is only distorted in relation to the Orthodoxy of Normalcy. What is considered Orthodox by most humans, those who can be said to be normal, is itself a distorted perception of the Cosmos. Good and bad are just outcomes one perceives as favorable or unfavorable to one's own self-interest. How that self-interest is defined is subjective and will always be distorted due to the relative perception we have of our environment.

To me, my bi-polar - in which I spend most my cycle depressed - confronts me with the reality, the undeniable realization, that my percepton of my environment is determined by processes independant of my self-interest. Most people are never so confronted. The realism of depression is that confrontation which demands a response from our minds. It cannot be ignored. One cannot turn away from it. I am made aware of my relationship with my environment by virtue of how it influences my ability to perceive. I have parts and I am the sum of them and this sum is a part of the Cosmos. At least, that is how I perceive it and many who would be considered normal choose to actively deny it. I often comfort myself in this irony, as depressing as it can be at times.

[Hellion]

I fail to see the point in people 'succeeding in life' how society defines it...system we have can't sustain itself anyone who thinks things will last the way they are is either in denial or in a state of blissful ignorance. Chaos is likely to occur at some point...

Also wouldn't be surprised if something resembling WW3 occurs maybe, or perhaps the natural catastrophes will wipe out civilization as we know it first though. Of course one would prefer to think of that as depressed ramblings not the possible state of the world.

[DSM-3.1415926]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't both sides ("depressives are more realistic" vs. "optimists are more realistic") base their conclusions on whether optimists vs. depressives interpret proverbs more correctly? This seems like a pretty narrow basis on which to make those inferences.

[Clara22]

Hi,
Somehow it is true, but it is not about severe depression, but milder ones. On the other hand, hope is a tool for self-preservation. The total absence of hope would be dysfunctional at biological level, in my opinion. But I can be wrong

[~rider]

Interesting idea for sure. I don't think it's that's simple, maybe for some people but not me. My depression is about looking at real things in ways that are not real. I have to constantly snap out of it and realize things in my life are good and the way I choose them to be, and the way I want them to be. My issue is idealizing certain things in an unreal way, causing me to have longing and sadness. That triggers my depression. This would actually reverse the whole idea for me. Obviously my depression is just a symptom of other, bigger issues. Guess that's what I get for being an INFJ.

[flours]

it doesn't matter if negative and positive is subjective. you expect things that are good/bad for yourself. it doesn't matter what that is.
if you would completely like WW3 to happen you wouldn't expect it to happen if you're pessimistic.

[LastQuestion]

What I'd like to occur and what I expect to occur are often in discord until I understand what is occurring.

And so I ask myself, "Why do my expectations conflict with what I desire?" With such a question what I understand expectations and desires to be matters. A thorough inquiry into that topic inevitably leads to perception and it's subjective nature.

It is the third option: The glass is neither half empty nor half full, it is specifically proportioned.

Originally Posted by flours

years ago at a psychology class I learned that people with depression actually see things too realistically and normal people are usually a little more optimistic then reasonable.

does anyone know if this is true?

-I know this is not a good thing to write. it's probably wrong anyway.

If you mean we see the world (people/human nature) too realistically then yes I think some of us do. But that is probably an oversimplification. There are people who see life very realistically and try their best to counteract the bad... e.g. Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders and other health and human/animal rights workers. Then there are people who don't have a clue what life/human nature is about (and don't care) and they have problems with depression. If you do a search you'll find other threads here about the subject.

[flours]

Originally Posted by George H.

Then there are people who don't have a clue what life/human nature is about (and don't care) and they have problems with depression.

so if you know what life is about, why don't you share it with all the depressed people here and free them form their debilitating ignorance?

[Clara22]

Wow ! I think exactly the opposite that George! In the last years, because of work, I had the opportunity of witnessing certain areas where decision makers operate at high level. My concept of human nature changed but for the worst. I saw for example people belonging to noble NGOs doing nasty things to each other to get international donors money. It was a very disappointing experience and I am convinced played a role in my current depression. On the other hand I do not think that reality immersion is the main cause of my depression

Originally Posted by flours

so if you know what life is about, why don't you share it with all the depressed people here and free them form their debilitating ignorance?

I'm quite sure I didn't say what you seem to think I said

Originally Posted by Clara22

Wow ! I think exactly the opposite that George! In the last years, because of work, I had the opportunity of witnessing certain areas where decision makers operate at high level. My concept of human nature changed but for the worst. I saw for example people belonging to noble NGOs doing nasty things to each other to get international donors money. It was a very disappointing experience and I am convinced played a role in my current depression. On the other hand I do not think that reality immersion is the main cause of my depression

I'm not going to defend something that I don't know first hand. I will defend NGO field workers such as the MSF personnel who are working in Gaza where even the hospitals are being bombed. When people put their own lives at risk to help others I think they are worth defending.

[Altered Moment]

There is a saying that the key to happiness is 0 expectations. I use it a lot as in applying it to others. It can also mean totally living in the moment and letting life unfold as it will. Of course it is probably impossible to have 0 expectations but I find the philosophy useful. Many many things are totally out of my control including things about myself. Why should I waste my energy putting expectations on them.

[flours]

Originally Posted by George H.

I'm quite sure I didn't say what you seem to think I said

I'm wrong a lot. sorry for that. so what did you mean?

(I will not get myself into a political discussion.)

[Altered Moment]

Then there are people who don't have a clue what life/human nature is about (and don't care) and they have problems with depression.

The statement seems to insinuate that people have depression because they don't have a clue about life/human nature and don't care.

[Disorder7]

When I'm depressed, I think about death a lot. Not suicide. Just that we are all destined to die relatively soon.

That makes me wonder not only why we're here, but how can people get up and go to work or go shopping or anything, knowing, just knowing that we're going to die very soon?
Is it to distract themselves? Like if they stay busy or buy enough stuff, they don't have to think about it?

Very soon, we will cease to exist and the world will continue as though we were never born. How can anyone, sane or otherwise, not be depressed by that fact?

[Altered Moment]

I think very few people confront their own death. Not until they are facing it. My mom worked for hospice for many years and people are very afraid when confronted with it. I am not afraid to die but then I have thought about it a lot because of depression.

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Originally Posted by flours

I'm wrong a lot. sorry for that. so what did you mean?

(I will not get myself into a political discussion.)

No problem and I'm sure you're not wrong that often My view isn't about politics either. I'm not saying I see life clearly enough to understand it perfectly by any means, I just see it in a global sense. And it's such a huge, complex thing that explaining it is very difficult. I'll make an effort. I see clearly enough to know that life has much sadness, tragedy, and suffering for most. In some parts of the world tragedy and suffering is a daily constant. Not from depression but from the circumstances of their lives. Honestly, the majority of us don't treat each other very well in general. We tend to be self absorbed and therefor oblivious at best or apathetic at worst to all the suffering. Or we contribute to it, which is of course worse than being ignorant or apathetic to it. Wealth is valued over lives. We are fascinated and envious of vain and empty headed celebrities. The violent and the criminal are idolized in pop culture.
Even in the smallest ways mankind fails. If we can't treat each other well imagine how we treat everything else. How many pets are abandoned in a year? I don't know the answer but I know that where I live an estimated 80,000 unwanted pets are "euthanized" each year. The animals we use as food sources are treated so badly that it's becoming unhealthy even for us, the consumers of the animals.
We poison our world with chemicals. We hunt animals for sport. We kill them for the alleged therapeutic effects of their sexual organs. Put it all together and it's bleak. I can't speak for others but my depression thins my skin and makes it all hard to ignore and go about my life. Sometimes I wonder if depression is such a bad thing in my case. I suppose it is though because without being crippled by depression I might be more active in helping.
I'm sorry I can't explain it any better. Sometimes the thoughts are clear and words come easily... sometimes not.

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

The statement seems to insinuate that people have depression because they don't have a clue about life/human nature and don't care.

It may to you. No insinuation was intended and that is definitely not my view.
I do know that there are people with MI and possibly depression who really don't have a clue to what goes on in the world. The MI aren't that different from other people.

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

I think very few people confront their own death. Not until they are facing it. My mom worked for hospice for many years and people are very afraid when confronted with it. I am not afraid to die but then I have thought about it a lot because of depression.

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I didn't think I was afraid either, for exactly the same reasons. As death gets closer I'm not so sure about that. If fear comes it won't be the same fears I once had. I suspect that when the time gets closer many new thoughts and emotions will come forth.

[glok]

There is no consensus about the cause of depression. Yet, we are to believe depressives see things too realistically? At what point does our perception go beyond objective reality, if there is such a thing?

[Clara22]

What we call "depression" may be many different things, in fact. "Depression" is a label. The WHO worked to have an universal definition and also investigated different approaches to it, particularly in low income countries. Cross cultural studies has been made from different perspectives. Some scientists believe that an universal approach is possible while others give much more weight to cultural factors dismissing universality (relativism).
I do appreciate psychiatry although I am aware that is also a tool for society to have things under control. Making us swallow Prozac is easier than producing changes in a sickening environment. We must fit in even though some norms, structures, places, etc are inhuman and degrading. I do not trust 100 percent in Psychiatry. Call me paranoid if you like