Mad in america

that is good to question.....if your blood sugar is up you need an evaluation...
if you have pre-diabetes you are at risk for diabetes and depression....you need to know whether you have insulin resistance....

I question the idea that any human being NEEDS psych drugs. There is apparently no legit way to test a patient's brain chemistry to see what if any imbalances they have. And if you could, would that necessarily tell what is causing their depression or other symptoms?

The message that people need these drugs is a destructive one. It says -- you have a broken brain, there is nothing you can do but take drugs, probably for life, and if you don't you will get worse.

This does not mean people cannot benefit from drugs or that taking them is wrong. But need them?

I read Whitaker's book "Anatomy of an Epidemic". One of the most eye opening things I have read on any topic. People who don't like this sort of stuff will say it's just one book and big deal, but it seems to be the definitive book on the subject.

Others will say that it's "anti-drug". But really it's a comprehensive analysis of 50 yrs of literature and outcomes studies, written in a clear and unemotional style, with no obvious bias or hidden agenda.

Peter Breggin is another voice of reason.

The problem as I see it as that basic model of mainstream healthcare is utterly insane.

For every problem presented by the patient they must see a "specialist", that specialist will prescribe one or more synthetic drugs to mask or manage the symptoms, the drugs themselves might create new symptoms requiring more drugs, neither specialists nor GPs have the time training nor inclination to identify actual root causes, they might not even talk to each other, nobody is taking a look at the big picture, most doctor visits are too short to reveal much useful information, the patient is treated like a machine with disparate parts and systems that can be manipulated with pills by medical technicians, there is fanatical reliance on lab tests and other data-driven measures, treatments tend to get lost in endless minutae, and the doctors treat the disease instead of the patient.

And yet isn't health mostly about -- relationships, connection, nutrition, exercise, sleep, detoxification, direct contact with nature?

And what is wrong with lab tests? 4 months ago, during my annual check my liver function and inflammatory markers were raised - I was asymptomatic. Further tests show a continued escalation of 'numbers', a CT Scan shows scarring but no definitive cause. Now, with all the data gathered, but no obvious answer, I have been referred to a Specialist for further investigation and treatment. All while asymptomatic.

Would you rather I be treated in a system where the reliance was not on 'labs', but I waited til I was symptomatic, jaundiced with cirrhosis and close to liver failure or death?

The System here works well.

Dave.

I was making a point about their overuse, not saying they are all useless.

I could give countless examples of lab tests I've had done (some expensive) that yielded no useful info, despite my being pretty ill. Same goes for some invasive and expensive scope tests, scans, etc.

These realities are not mutually exclusive. . . CT scans can be pivotal in ascertaining a problem, but they can miss things, too (as an example). A majority of doctors would conclude that a patient has no real problems because a scan came up negative. Then the patient is released and dies from (?)

So, giving deference to a "lab" despite how a patient is presenting (display of symptoms) is a real issue. Unfortunately.

Scans rarely miss things which are physically there. The problem arises when a Radiographer or Doctor misreads said scan and misses something vital. This is human error and is not the 'fault' of the machine. All these tools, for that is what they are, are advancements which make diagnosis easier, earlier and more accurate.

Dave.

I think it's good that someone dedicates their time to make the treatment for Mental Disorders better. I'm well aware of the influence from the Psychofarmaca Industries upon many GP-s, Psychiatrists and Psychologists. On the other hand I see it as a danger if there out of this comes a strict division between a pro-medication and a no-medication view. That might confuse the patients.

Many need both medication and some sort of talk therapy. Others are better off with only medication or only talk therapy.

I think that demands from the governments around the world about why this or that approach has been chosen by the doctor is crucial. Then it will be easy to see if the doctor used a well acknowledged approach and why she chose to medicate or not.

The interaction between the human body and the brain is complex. We know about environmental influences and much more. Every person is unique and needs to be treated as such.

There is still much to learn about Mental Disorders. May be we will have to show deep humility for each person and also for the «may be fact» that not all can be treated. As PC members we are to support, only.

I will recommend this 1 hour Youtube video for those interested: «The Truth about Depression BBC Full Documentary 2013». In the video we meet different Irish people who is treated by different approaches. Medication is one of them. I found it interesting and hope others may do so as well. It gives one something to think about.

It is not for or against medication, but what treatment approach is best documented? Do the documented approaches work for all diagnoses or must one expect different approaches for different disorders? As an example, we know that CBT helps many and that DBT might be better for persons wit Borderline Personality Disorder.

singer47 you said------ As PC members we are to support, only.------

singer47----is this accurate...I want to support and EDUCATE...and share info..i know some things after learning about depression for 65years that others do not know...should we only be doing ventilation and support...

also I believe there is hope for everyone...but we need to know causes before we can fix anything...

The causes may be many and merged together. We already know a lot about different causes: genetic, traumas, being mocked, being extra sensitive, too much stress, living in a not acceptive environment, economic variables and more. We also know about the electrical and chemical responses in the body and brain.

When the picture is so complex already, and when the different causes are difficult to separate from each other, why wait for more causes «before we can fix anything...»?

Many people are already helped by current methods. Others have been difficult to help.

In the Youtube video I recommended in post 34 (this thread) we learned that amygdala and grey matter shrinks in depressed people. We also learned that it grows after treatment, but that it may take years before it is «back to basic». If this is true, it is possible to think that people might be extra vulnerable to some degree to new triggers between finishing therapy and the time it takes before the brain has grown again.

I think that treatment «alone» is not the only «ingredient» in recovery. The society in general has to become more supportive, make room for the depressed in various activities. As we also saw in the video, the boys at the school that was educated about depression, felt it wrong to laugh of depressed people.

Talking about education we are close to the next:

Well, there may be many who know «things» here (it is not so certain that people tell all about themselves when thy join a forum like this).

I suppose that the reason people come to a forum like this is to meet like-minded. To know that others are in the same situation might be a help in itself. To educate oneself about one's disorder is important, but may be that has to happen in the tact of the persons (when they are ready, they will search information). I think that hugs and some words about that we understand the hurt, will be of help to many and of course some information when they ask about it.

I have to admit that I became shocked when I experienced that there probably are two fighting camps in the forums, one accepts medication and more while the other camp is anti-medication. The thread were I got this experience is deleted now, and good is that. I was very disappointed that it stood as long as it stood.

People may have had enough of splitting and quarreling outside of the forums. I don't think that they need it here. That might make them to feel as if they have entered an unsafe arena.

It is helpful not to ATTACK others directly for their view points, tell them their approach is "dangerous" because it might make people think differently. Unless somebody shills directly (there has been people who recommended a certain pricey meds to every problem somebody mentioned, etc.)... just assume people are speaking from their experience. And if their approached helped them somewhat, that it is worth considering, if you current ways of dealing are falling you.

Or it's kinda unwise speak in absolutes. We don't know many things.

I watch the recommended video and while it was okay, it focused only on the mainstream treatment... without being critical to it. I am one of the people that needs different, more broader and more alternative approach. I prefer the Mad in American site for this reason. There is market for such approach. There is need for such approach. Why try to take it away from people?

If you like Mad in America, you might like Icarus Project.

Of course people might need more help then what the official health care might give. That was also a point in the video, that there was not enough treatment available in Northern Ireland compared to England.

With all the complexity that there might be in a depression, of course people may need alternatives if they want to try. What I am worried about, is that people who are newly diagnosed, shall become afraid to try medication because they get the impression that it is not wise to do so. It is first after trying it they can know if it helps or not.

But should all newly diagnosed jump straight onto medication? That stuff *does* carry its risks.

I was recommended meds at age of ten. FOR ****ING GRIEF ISSUES.

Healthcare is system's problems are not limited for it be available or not. Maybe overavailability could be as much problem as not having any access to it.

What I find scary that people get diagnosed in short appointment, thrown meds at, without suggestions how to fix life otherwise. If they get bad reaction to the meds, they get even more meds tossed at them. And in our culture have this idolization of doctors that many people don't dare to question their, even if it's blarringly obvious that person is incompetent.

NO!

How awful!

OK, now I think that I understand better. I think it is very important that people are not over-medicated, and that the "treatment profession" needs to be looked in the cards.

When it is appropriate to medicate and when it's not must be done by good and clever professionals. To give a child antidepressants because of grief is irresponsible.

Venusss, your post number 40 at this thread was very informative. I understand! I was given tricyclic antidepressants once. They made me very sick with terrible side effects. I was against medication for years after that. Later I became so depressed that I listened to advice and took MAO-antidepressants. After some time I had some strange reactions that made it difficult for me to work. I took myself off them. Some time after that I was put on another antidepressant and became suicidal . I had to give the pills to the toilet. The doctor never understood my hint about that I had become suicidal of the meds. I moved because of a new job and was still depressed. I refused to take medication, when my new GP suggested it. He told me about how these newer medications, the SSRI-s, works. I still refused, but after being promised that I could call him whenever I wanted, I tried. I did a progressive intake, step by step. It went fine in the beginning, but then I felt so sick, like as if my body was crushed together. I called immediately and was told to go down in dosage.

The SSRI has been of good help to me. They have some side effects, but I have chosen to stay on them because the antidepressant effect is relatively good.

So, it is not that I haven't had bad experiences with antidepressants that has made me so «pill-friendly». As you can see, the last time I was given meds the session with the GP was very educative. The first time was one up / one down (and I was the one at the down side). It was a humiliating experience and very little helpful.

I know that there still are doctors with little skills in the mental health field. My hope is that such doctors shall lose their power and have to document why they chose to act so and so. Like you I don't want doctors to over-medicate or too soon give meds to children. I want competent doctors who are skilled enough to give the right treatment and not be so hanged up in their own prestige.

Hope we understand each other better now!



PS. A good weekend to you and the others on the thread. I feel tired and have much to do for the weekend so I will stay out of here for the weekend.

i started this thread so everyone can KNOW what is going on in mental health care....i believe in having an OPEN MIND...each person will make up their own mind about what works for them....we need to know what is causing our own depression so we can work with it...i will be here on this forum to educate...i am a teacher....i am a very old mood disordered doctor who wants to help...if i am not helping please tell me about it....the real question----what is true for you..not someone else...

Yes. Real medicine in my view means getting to the bottom of things. Use the concept of differential diagnosis to sift through possible root causes and patterns. Go after low hanging fruit first.

For depression, maybe look first at simple nutrient deficiencies -- omega-3 fats, vitamin D, magnesium, B12. Check thyroid function. Do detailed diet assessment.

Maybe next steps are look at the history of trauma and emotional injury. Consider chronic autoimmune, inflammatory, infectious disease.

Shouldn't meds be last resort? If someone has some disease process underway, and you just throw meds into the mix that disrupt normal brain function as a way to make them feel better for a while… what is that?

I also find this troubling. Doctors are treated like deities with magic powers. I think people have become conditioned to see the ritual of the doctor visit as comforting and normal. The doc plays a maternal or paternal role. The patient sits on the exam table with their legs dangling off like a child, in a submissive posture. But underneath it is a highly dysfunctional collusion, with deep denials necessary to keep it afloat. I'm generalizing but that is how I have experienced the system.

ETA: Echoing a recent thread about parallels between cults and therapy, I also think mainstream medicine shares some of these traits. There is very little questioning of medicine's orthodoxies and methods. And the system fosters dependency -- patients are not empowered to take charge of their health, rather they must have regular doctor visits, drugs for life, screenings, tests, ever increasing interaction with the system.

I just thought of something....during this snowstorm...
I think SUPPORT is the most important thing on this forum...
but we need to support ALL those suffering..
we need to support those that have been harmed by doctors and medicines also...
we need to know both sides of the street..
as an old retired depressed doctor I have seen help and harm...good and bad..
we need to be aware of everything that is going on...
we cant afford to sweep those that have been harmed by drugs under the carpet..

For those interested . . .

In the vein of Roger Whitaker's information, here is another enlightening online resource focused on root cause, not treating the symptom, by Doug Kaufmann:
Know The Cause - Doug Kaufmann

BudFox - you mentioned Lyme disease in another related post. I hope you are getting better! Kaufmann has a segment on it if you are interested:
Natural Approach to Lyme Disease

As a NON old retired depressed doctor, I totally agree.

So right, so right! In the thread that was deleted I posted a link to a video were a depressed person talked. She pointed at different persons, from young to old age, and said: What works for me don't have to work for him or him, or her ...».That is right! If I cannot tolerate tricyclick drugs, they may be perfect for somebody else. As sufferers of Depression or other Emotional Disorder we can support other sufferers because of our personal knowledge on how it is to suffer ourselves, but never think that since this or that didn't work for me, it doesn't work for others either. It is important to give support according to the situation the person who asks for advice presents. If that is about having been put on a numeral of medications that did not work, then it may perhaps be appropriate to mention that there might be other alternatives. If, however, the person complains over meds that hasn't worked after two weeks trial, may be the best is to inform about that it may take from two to six weeks before medication works. We can follow up later if the person still is complaining about the meds still not work after six weeks ...

It is always the unique person who has to be the focus of our support!

By the way there is a forum at PC called «Other Treatments». Perhaps general discussions about non-antidepressant approaches are most suitable there?

Thanks. I know of the guy in the Lyme video and have talked to a couple people who have been to his clinic in Germany.

Dietrich Klinghardt MD PhD is for my money the smartest guy in the Lyme world, and maybe the smartest most aware health practitioner I have yet come across. Click anywhere in the following video and just listen. Totally brilliant and light years ahead of other doctors.