Mad in america

Are you suggesting that this forum (Depression) should only be used for discussion of pharmaceutical antidepressants?

Thank you for asking! I can see that I was a bit unclear. With "non-antidepressant approaches" I meant herbs, teas, nutrition and other substitutes for the medication part of treatment. I specified " in general", so I did not mean that persons who have problems with Psychofarmaca shouldn't post in the Depression section of the forums.

It was a suggestion, not a must!

Very on-topic and relevant article:
Advances in Understanding of Depression Offer New Hope

Mentions Whitaker, gut health, chronic systemic inflammation, diet, sugar, and more.

vitamin d is a big one...

It would be a real shame to stop a good discussion where there is lots of engagement (yes, even debate) by forum members just to move a thread. This sub forum is generically categorized "Depression" and this thread was started in a logical place, IMO. Yes, this touches on non-Rx treatments, but in a broader context. Can we not allow PC members their own discretion as to whether they wish to read and/or participate in the discussion without getting caught up in the weeds of where this thread should/should not be located? It seems to be parochial, close-minded . . . and, quite bluntly, it appears like a way to just shut down participation because it goes against some members' beliefs. (I could be misconstruing that.)

Little turtle started this thread with a reference to the MAD IN AMERICA website . . . makes me curious as to how many folks on this thread took the opportunity to check it out for themselves before getting their pantaloons in a bunch. I mean, of course anyone can join in at any point without regards to the aforementioned website, but that rather short-changes the opportunity to explore viewpoints, share new ideas, offer hope - yes, HOPE . . .

. . . HOPE because there are soooooooo many people suffering from depression and other MIs that have not been cured by tradition Rx therapies. While antidepressants may offer some relief (myself included), they sure ain't bringing a CURE. For countless others, antidepressants don't bring ANY relief. Many of us are not satisfied with the conventional medicine and Rx approach. For those that are, that is perfectly OK, but there is no need to take this down the Us vs Them, pro-drugs vs anti-drugs rabbit hole. Let's face it, if drugs were THE answer, we would not be on this forum and Psych Central would have no cause for existence. As I've mentioned before, drugs are but one tool in the toolbox. There are a lot of people who probably are not aware of the other tools because our doctors have been trained in only 1. Maybe 1.5. So many people in the throes of depression don't even have the wherewithal to think beyond filling a script. Maybe they could read something here that could help them.

Sorry, I just had to let that out . . . now, where's my Haagen Dazs?

I am not sure what much of your post means as I have no experience and nobody has ever reported to me any experiences that match your description. I have never had a doctor throw pills at me. I am not sure how a doctor can make you feel bad about not taking pills. You would think that said person would just not go and see the doctor? I mean, doctors (largely) prescribe medicines, among other things, that is their job. They are not all corrupt and don't all want to dope people up. Besides that, I don't see myself as 'pro' or 'anti' I just take what pills I can to improve my situation in life. Its that simple.

You cannot avoid bias.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool' - Richard Feynman

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22663351

I do not agree that this book is comprehensive with no bias. There is no question medications result in a worse outcome for some. Some. This has been acknowledged by the top physicians, best journals and by researchers. But as has been stated elsewhere he has it backwards. Many people get better and stop meds rather than get better because they stopped meds.

Oh and Breggen has been completely slammed. And fairly so

Talking Back to Peter Breggin

I found the article informative. I have understood before that article and before the discussions here, that there is a connection between "sickness in parts of the body" and mood disorders.

The questions I ask is what comes first and last. If for example a person is bullied at school for years, that person will probably react with signals from the whole body. Herbs, teas or other will probably not help. The stop in being bullied will probably give relief, but the person will still struggle with low self-esteem that has to be treated psychologically.

How do the members on the thread think about solving such complex intermingled functions?

Most of us know about the problems with the medical system, and I cannot understand why this is a surprise. A broad view of health may well be what you listed. The discussion here is about mental health. Are you suggesting that the people here can resolve their depression just by focusing on "relationships, connection... etc? And this is where the alt medicine practitioners enter and make their $. Many of them no doubt believe in what they say and do. But unfortunately, there just isn't much significant scientific evidence at all that those health and lifestyle approaches resolve any mental health issues such as severe depression.

Nobody has suggested that this particular thread shall be moved!

I checked it out (not in detail). The point is that America's (overdosing people with antidepressants, especially the young) is known through the world and it's ethic is debated. The fact that the body and brain is a complex "machinery" is also known. As I have stated before: It's good that some people dedicate their lives to look at possible changes and so on ..., but changes that can be used, have to be well documented as being better then the approaches already in use. It is not enough that there is a link between this or that ...

what is the job of doctors....doctors basically get paid for prescribing medicines for depression.....if they got paid for preventing depression that is what they would try to do.
but most people want fast action....that is what I wanted...I didn't even want to face what is causing my depression...just give me an anti-depressant and make it go away...
unfortunately life may not be that easy...I wish it was easier...when I was a medical student I wanted to cure people not treat their symptoms...but that is not what you meet in the real world....my patients called me doctor rugrat...at least I would talk with them about reality...and then I left because the clinics wanted me to see every person for 15 minutes...I wouldn't do that...so I had to retire...I didn't want to...I knew something about prevention and other ways of treating depression...this is my story...from a retired depressed very old doctor who still wants to help out in this awful world..

Mercola sells supplements lol

Excessive inflammation doesn't help mental health .... no real surprise there

Antidepressant drug papers have overstated the success of medications ... again no surprises there.

If you want to take a position on the role of gut health, vitamin d or fish oil or exercise in depression then you need systematic reviews or metanalysis to support those views. Not selectively choosing articles and bits of info and then cobbling together a narrative.

Very important. It is not only the Psychofarmaca Industries that make money on our health. So does the alternative medicine as well.

You have a point here. My suggestions have been that the GP's and P.docs have to document why they chose one alternative instead of another. GP's are too fast in using prescription before they have tried anything else. With that said, however, the first advise I was given when my diabetes was diagnosed was to start more physical activity and do a diet change. That was too late at that moment. But it was a good try.

With regard to depression, GP-s are GP-s and not specialists in Psychology or Psychiatry. May be they should send their patients to a physical and psychological (psychiatric) evaluation before they lift their pen to prescribe antidepressants?

47---I go to a psychiatrist in a large city...every three months...he is reporting to me that there aren't enough psychiatrists to handle the flow...the gps are doing a lot...they are on the front line...and they don't have much time anymore...is that true in your place

While is true depression can be caused by other factors like a problem with the thyroid, most depression is cause by a unloving/dysfunctional childhood.
Also It might be because of circumstances, money worries and such.

I don't know how a doctor could prevent depression.
Most doctors are decent people trying to do the best they can with the knowledge they've got.

Eating healthy won't cure depression (tho it's always a good idea)
Healthy eating won't cure genetic MI problems either.
The doctors I've seen have not pushed pills and rarely give out benzos.
Seems to be different in US.

Good point made about people pushing natural remedies, they can be quacks with no medical training out to make as much money as they can, not necessarily any different from 'big pharma'

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marm--------as far as dysfunctional childhood problems...how can that be worked on by psychiatrists and psychologists...

Psychiatrists?
A chat with a pdoc was never going to solve much. Never seen one.
Not sure they 'cure' depression anyway.
Maybe long term therapy helps. Dunno how true that is because I've never had therapy

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marm I had a serious problem with my parents fighting....it has never left me to this day..it is still there and it comes out when I am more depressed...I did have some help from a male psychiatrist and a female psychologist...they were my substitute parents so to speak..i love them...they are dead now

I've had both therapy and a psychiatrist. Both have helped me quite a lot. The meds I'm given stabilize me. The therapy I have had? Most of it's been quite helpful. Not all of it.. Had one hell of an awful therapist once. He was really mean. That said, the therapist I have now is pretty good with my history. So both these types of people can be helpful to others. Don't knock it until you've tried it.

Not speaking for anyone else, this is just my experience:

I had a very dysfunctional childhood and family life. I won't go into details, but there was a lot of trauma; emotional, mental and physical. When I first got treatment at age 30, I had a whole lot of stuff going on from both childhood and my adult life. I saw a T for a few years, then my financial situation changed and I wasn't able to pay for it. When I was in t, I talked about things that had happened to me and tried to make sense of them. I don't remember much "healing" taking place, but talking about them sort of helped in outlining the events instead of all of my pain being a swirly mess in my mind. As I've aged, I've come to terms with different things, such as, none of the abuse was my fault. I'm not a bad person, I was just born to people who were more into themselves than their kids. What I did as a child was childish, and has no bearing on who I am today. And occasionally other things fall into place.

Now, understanding those things has helped me intellectually, but, not really affected my depression. I don't know if I was born with D, or acquired it early, but it seems to be a permanent part of me.

To conclude: Just like meds, psychotherapy can be useful and even vital for some people, others don't need it or want it. It can also be used to avoid reality for some, just like meds. Some can be too dependent on their T and there are real reasons for that, others see a T once and are fine with it. I believe therapy has it's place, but like meds, not everyone needs it.

Have you read Whitaker's book? Wondering why you feel it is not comprehensive if you read it. It's pretty clear about long term outcomes -- rather bleak. The data he analyzes is looking at people on meds long term. So not clear what your point is about stopping meds.

If you are looking to Quackwatch for unbiased info, you are in big trouble. The founder (Stephen Barrett) is a delicensed psychiatrist who operates as a self-appointed expert on seemingly every health approach and treatment known to man. He attacks every alternative treatment there is but leaves conventional medicine alone. If you want to see what a front for pharma looks like, look no further.

The guy has also been in court countless times and always seems to lose. A US court found him to be "biased, and unworthy of credibility".

Totally agree. I was bullied when I was a kid. My mother was chronically depressed. There is suicide and depression in my family. I have depression and low self esteem and the trauma aspects of it are not going to miraculously disappear if I increase vit D levels or eliminate gluten.

The point to me is to look at the big picture and try to address depression on all levels. And not buy into the simplistic narrative sold by pharma and mainstream medicine, who try to reduce the complexity of depression to a simple imbalance that can be fixed with a drug, and indeed must be fixed with a drug. It's a cartoon version of reality.

Yep Mercola sells supps. But everyone in the biz sells something. Is there a doctor or site that does not have a conflict of interest? If not Mercola, then who? WebMD has been exposed as a pharma shill. I'll take Mercola. You know he is saying important stuff, because of how relentlessly mainstream medicine attacks him.

Cobbling together a narrative? If you see gut health-mental connection as controversial or in need of evidence, I don't know what to say...

Ah, but there is published research on the non-conventional treatments. The fact that some of you are not aware of it doesn't make it untrue. Just leaves you selectively unaware. And even Mercola provides citations.

I don't know why some treatments work for some and not for others. But there is a lot of evidence that approaches beyond the confines of Rx work. Yep, evidence in peer-reviewed articles. People really tend to under estimate the power of food, environment, mind. But, there are probably people out there who are still arguing the world is indeed flat . . .

Childhood trauma is by far the most significant cause of adult mental health issues. Take the traumatized reptilian brain of ours, then throw in crap nutrition or hypothyroid or whatever into the mix and complete healing from one modality is going to be unrealistic. We are not a closed system. It takes a lot of resources (mental, time, $, trial-and-error) to find relief, so many are willing to stop there.

Which brings me to tell you about EMDR - Eye Movement Densensitation and Reprocessing. Amazing book entitled "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk. I can't wait to explore this more. I posted quite a bit of info about it on another thread - way too much for me to tap-tap-tap away on my smart phone, but if anyone has any interest I'd be more than happy to provide the info when I'm at my laptop.