Challenging position with pdoc

I've posted ad naseum about some psych tests that have been scheduled, and while this is connected, it won't be rehashing the issue - I promise.

Amongst the tests that I have scheduled, my psychiatrist has ordered an IQ test. This is a problem. The test results are going to be considered at my disability hearing and I have been told by three attorneys - mine, and two others that I spoke to while I was shopping for a disability lawyer, that I have two challenges to receiving disability.

The first is that I am too young. Social Security prefers awarding disability to folks over 55 years of age, but each attorney has told me that they can work with anything over fifty years old. The second strike against me, I am told, is that I am too smart. Apparently, the smarter one is, the more employment options that person has or can create.

I am a genius and member of Mensa. In context, I've shared this with my psychiatrist and it is the reason that he has ordered the IQ test - to confirm. In retrospect, I wish I had not divulged this information, but it is too late for this. I spoke with my attorney on Friday and this was our conversation:

Me: Can I refused to take the test?
Him: Yes, but it will hurt our chances at a favorable outcome.
Me: And when I score in the genius level?
Him: Again, that too will hurt our chances for a favorable outcome
Me: So I should just have a really, really, bad day?
Him: That would be the best outcome, yes.

Even if I did not tell my psychiatrist about my IQ already, he's been talking with me for a year - he knows. Scoring in the normal range - or perhaps low normal, will set off red flags. I'm not trying to game the system - I am truly disabled and in a fair system, I would have had disability long ago, but as we know, it isn't a fair system.

Any recommendations on how to do damage control with my psychiatrist after I score well beneath my ability? His notes on the subject could be damaging as well, so not only do I need to score low, I need to convince him that this was my best effort. I'll take any suggestions. Thank you.

Hi yagr,

I think in this case, honesty is the way to go. I would not intentionally try to score lower on the IQ test. This would put you and your psychiatrist and even your legal team into some less than up and up waters on the matter of you being awarded disability. I would not let my goal of getting on disability cloud my judgement to do what could be considered fraud or a felony. I would not be able to live with myself from tge paranoia of being charged.

That's just my take. What does your work history look like? If you paid a great deal into SS during your working life, you can usually get on SSDI with some limited assistance from a lawyer.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

moogs

What a difficult position to be in. I'm having trouble understanding why the psychiatrist, at least, doesn't understand that you can be both a genius, and disabled. Those are not mutually exclusive. My therapist actually made a point of discussing this with me... frequently. Intelligence is not really related to emotional health.

In an ideal world, I'd like to see your doctors get behind you and advocate for you. They should focus on the disability, not your intelligence.

But, I realize the world is far from ideal, unfortunately.

Have you talked at all to your psychiatrist about this? Or, do you have another therapist-type care provider? Have you asked them, bluntly, how your IQ interacts with your issues/illness/disability? I'm wondering if they get it?

And, honestly... it makes me mad for you. I don't know what your specific issues are, but I can't imagine telling someone with a panic disorder, for example, that they're "too smart" to suffer from that. How about major depression? "You're a genius, you're not allowed to be depressed!". I find it really upsetting the more I think about, and I'm sorry that you're having to try to work around it. It's a shameful attitude for doctors to have.

How so Moogie? Okay, I understand how *I* could be held accountable, though it would be mighty difficult to prove. Everyone is capable of having a bad day and I've got enough physical conditions and prescription side effects to put most people in a stupor. But how could my psychiatrist or legal team end up culpable?

I almost started a completely new thread to discuss this one line but didn't know what forum to put it in. I realize that it may not be popular in the circles we run in, but I am completely comfortable in what I would call 'deception in the pursuit of truth'. I was there when my ninety-six year old grandfather begged my grandmother to let him go and to unplug the machine. I was there when she unplugged it. Had I been asked, I wouldn't have seen anything.

I'm not going to live long enough for it to become a problem. I'm dying as a result of my disabilities. If they deny me and I have to appeal, it is very unlikely that I'll live long enough to collect the back benefits they owe me by their own rules. If I die before those benefits are awarded, my wife gets nothing. If I am awarded disability, I'll be able to set my wife up in a little place and that'll give me a measure of peace.

I've paid into the system for thirty-five years. I have an attorney, and while we expect a win...well, you know what kind of trouble expectations get us in.

Will do - thanks.

yagr..I do no think the test will have much bearing on the case, unless the reason for the disability is directly related to it. For the sake of argument lets say your reason for the disability is stress related anxiety resulting in depression. Here is where the test and doing well on may actually help. I know personally and by no means am I a Mensa candidate but I tend to over analyze everything causing me stressful situations that can be avoided. Bottom line being real smart can be a reason for such abnormalities is perception causing your condition. Now if you play dumb like a fox and purposely tank the test they may say he is not smart enough to be having these issues. Revisionist history suggest highly intelligent individuals have had issues with ADD, Anxiety and depression. Hope that helps..GL

I might be wrong, but I think it's a federal crime to intentionally defraud the disability system. If you discussed this lowering your score on purpose with your pdoc, and he added it to his visit notes, this can become evidence in your case. You are posting on the internet that your disability attorney recommended that you on purpose make your IQ appear lower than it is - to me, this is sketchy.

In the end, it sounds like you would get awarded without having to commit fraud. Just my two cents, but what do I know? I am just a regular kinda guy.

moogs

I see the miscommunication now! Thanks for getting back to me, those kind of things can trap me as I try and figure them out. I have mentioned my Mensa membership to my psychiatrist but certainly have not mentioned lowering my score on purpose with him.

It does sound like it, but I have been denied twice already. The system is broken. A few years back (2007), internal documents were leaked which indicated that 17% of all claimants died before receiving disability when denied all the way to the hearing stage. Those documents went on to suggest that this was an effective way to reduce costs and payouts and should remain standard operating procedure.

I filled out my own disability paperwork and had it 3 months after application. My IQ never came into question or consideration. I could be in MENSA but have no such desire. However I think I was around 50 when I applied for SSD. Why would a psychiatrist have a problem with your IQ and specifically need to have it tested? None of mine ever did. But then maybe because mine had already been tested and recorded when I joined the military? My stepfather's IQ was extremely extremely high so I never cared one way or another about mine. It just made some things easier in getting through life, in funtiioning in some ways that would have been so much harder to get by with while dealing with the ravages mental illness can bring.

Just to let you know, high IQ is not related to having or not having a disability that makes one incapable of functioning on the job....especially since your disability sounds like it's physical, the IQ has absolutely nothing to do with the disability & your lawyers should know that & be supporting you in that light.

I truly am happy for you. Your experience is uncommon.

And there's the rub. As you've said, "It just made some things easier in getting through life..." Social Security Disability judges have figured this out as well. People with high intelligence tend to be able to figure out a way of getting through life even if they are denied. So they deny them more often.

I do know that eskie, but thanks for pointing it out.

While I have severe physical disabilities, social security has denied me repeatedly over the last (almost) three years. While my lawyer expects that I'll receive disability at the hearing level for my physical issues, we are introducing mental health concerns as an insurance policy against a system that is not always fair. So, my lawyers are on my side, but they are, in my opinion, rightly concerned about anything that can be used against me receiving disability - and a high IQ has been used many times by the social security administration to refuse someone.

It works like this: At the hearing, there is a vocational specialist there that lists jobs that you could do if you were not disabled. Then they begin crossing off the jobs that you can't do because of your disabilities. If someone is rather slow intellectually, they might begin with a list of fifty jobs that person can do (if they weren't disabled). If someone is gifted intellectually, there might be a hundred jobs listed. It's a lot easier to prove that I can't empty garbage than it is to prove that I can't contribute at a think tank somewhere - where it will only be my brain that gets worked.

Truth is, I can't. I am able to contribute here only because I can rest whenever I need to - and sometimes, when my brain is affected, I can't think clearly enough to follow the directions on a cup of soup meal. But that's exceedingly hard to prove.

I was in my mid 40's when I ended up on disability after 15 years of being a computer design engineer. Back in those days (mid 1990's) it might have been easier to get onto disability but I got it without any denial maybe that says just how messed up I was for major anxiety & major recurrent depression, in & out of the psych hospital continuously. I had a total break down in 1994 & even applied at several other engineering companies but aerospace had crashed in California. I just kept getting worse rather than better. Looking back from where I am now, I understand why, but at the time it didn't make any sense to anyone but I ended up on permanent disability so many years ago, I can't even remember the details because that period of my life is like a huge black hole.....kinda scary to look back & not remember 13 years of one's life other than little glimpses here & there.

Though during that time I ended up doing dressage horse riding & showing, & got my American Eskimo dogs & bred & trained & showed them, I honestly can't remember much of any of it...& forget functioning around the house.....so I understand exactly how you feel......how can someone who was that smart end up being so totally unable to do anything. I remember going through some testing stuff to see if they might be able to place me somewhere but all they dealt with were assembly line things & it sent my anxiety through the roof.....while they did the testing of the physics & how things worked & no one had gotten that test perfect like I did.....LOL, they had no way of dealing with someone who had brains.......they didn't push it, & my mom ended up with cancer & I ended up going through a horrible trauma with her home care person & well, forget being functional at all after that for several years after that....never figured something like that would cause PTSD.......life definitely has it's turn of events & at my age, it's close to the disability turning into social security.....& life goes on.

I am sorry to hear that you are just hoping to make it to the point where you do get your back pay........that aspect in & of itself from the medical aspect should be enough but I'm glad that your lawyers are covering ALL bases.

Do you have depression or anxiety? That would effect your scores.



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It was easier back in the 90's. I think it was 1996 when they stopped awarding disability to alcoholics and addicts - there were a lot of other changes at that time as well. I'm sorry that you went through such a tough time, but I'm glad that you were able to receive disability too.

Kind of sounds like my childhood.

I was looking for an opportunity to mention horses to you - glad you brought it up. I don't have the strength left but I need to keep a roof over my head so I train for a corner of the barn. Train mostly Saddlebred's.

Me too. It probably won't be an issue - but it CAN hurt me and it CAN'T help me...so I worry. I'm out of options - this is the last house on the block and I'm running out of time. We have our own land; I can get a small home built on it for my wife so I don't have to worry about her when my day comes. So yeah, the lawyers might be splitting hairs but they're trying to split hairs FOR me, so I appreciate it.

No. I was diagnosed with Major Depressive episode with some psychotic features last year, but it has passed. There was a good deal of anxiety at the time as well, but that too has passed. I have severe chronic pain issues but wasn't able to get pain meds for the longest time for a variety of reasons. Some of my physical issues weren't diagnosed yet, legal stipulations in my state against prescribing pain meds for chronic conditions, etc. Anyway, with so much pain, I wasn't able to sleep - no sleep led to psychosis. A sleep study a year and a half in showed I was getting no stage three sleep and no REM sleep, and that changed things. I was able to get pain meds then to sleep and presto-chango, the psychosis went away.

My fiancée's IQ tests are all over the place due to OCD and Tourettes acting up at wrong times. As much as entire standard deviation difference. Also if you are on Meds you might perform differently depends what time of the day. I am just saying your scores might vary due to all that

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Saddlebred's are big in this part of the country along with TB's for racing. I don't remember seeing any saddlebred's all the years & was born & lived in Southern California.