[jimmy rich]

When I was little kid, I often wondered why some kids at school and on the school bus were so noble and dignified while others, like my brother and I, were as corrupt as possible. I also wondered why some kids had such crumby manners at the dinner table or elsewhere while we had very good and respectful manners like putting our chairs back under the table and eating quietly or saying “thank you” and “please” at the table. I could see that there were vast differences in us and other kids but had no way to understand it even though I often envied the “decent” kids but usually saw them as pathetic “nerds” because they were never in trouble while we often were.

As I got older and became aware that most people are a little corrupt but either laugh it off or ignore it, I often wondered exactly how adults become: Dirty cops, crooked politicians and industrialists. Why there is so much innocent or horrible corruption that is never seen as a big deal since EVERYONE is doing it. When Nixon was found guilty of political crimes, many people said that his ONLY mistake was in getting caught! And I am still surprised at how many adults found no problem with Bill Clinton’s CHEATING!

But since my therapy and recovery, it has become glaringly obvious to me that my early corruption all began with Parenting. I can now see how every single bad or corrupt thing that my brother and I and all those corrupt kids we knew had started with parenting. The kids who were decent and righteous got it from their parents while those of us who were corrupt got it from our parents! Much is said and written about: genetics, disorders, nature, Karma, bad spirits, peers, etc. to explain the behavior of kids but, thanks to my memory, I know exactly how I was trained and programmed by my parents to become a corrupt kid and how other kids became so GOOD!

Our parents did not ever directly teach us to be thieves & liars or mean and violent, but they very definitely influenced us to become that way in many subtle and indirect ways that most adults don’t even notice. I could fill several pages with all the subtle and intricate ways our parents programmed us to become so corrupt like those politicians, cops and industrialists I mentioned above but it just comes down to day to day, subtle little body language, speech, reactions, behavior and unconscious, automatic actions from any parent to indirectly influence and PROGRAM their kids to be either honorable or corrupt and then pass it on to the next generation in the same, innocent and indirect way.

I wonder how many parents ever realize that both permissive and authoritarian parenting can damage a child and send out into the world a: murdered, school room shooter, arsonist, rapist, terrorist, serial killer, rotten industrialist, crooked GM executive, child molester, pedophile priest, careless oil company CEO, and on and on. For me, it all begins with parenting – the first and most influential system of behavior for any child who is most likely born innocent, honorable and HONEST (like we were) and then miraculously left that way or, as in our case, gradually corrupted by parenting first of all. I don’t even have to read his story to know that Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, Bin Laden, those masked ISIS murderers of innocent journalists, the rotten CEOs at GM and the really filthy Politicians in every government all started out as innocent, honorable children and then were CORRUPTED by their own parents from the beginning – just like us kids were corrupted by our parents.

It’s really no mystery at all and anyone can see exactly how it all works UNLESS you are a parent bent on defending your self and finding any excuse possible to cover your tracks. My parents would have found anything possible to hide or deny that they set us boys up to be: liars, thieves, violent, mean, devious, sneaky, out and out bad and ultimately sent my older brother to Prison for armed robbery. I know exactly how it all happened but I just don’t know why so many seemingly intelligent adults still FAIL to see how they are sending such destructive products out into the world or why the other adults in charge of society are FAILING to do something about it besides screaming for more GUN CONTROL!

Parenting is the bottom line issue for most of humanity, not gun control or more therapists, but those who are in charge are them selves part of the problem because they are also parents and feel compelled to minimize or simply DENY that parenting or to be more exact UNREGULATED parenting is the basic problem in our world. Parenting, such as with my parents, is the only unregulated and unmanaged form of production in the world that has no quality controls or over-sights placed on it yet parenting produces both the most destructive and/or beneficial products there are – other human beings.

Society will regulate cows, sheep, birds, insects, plants, etc. BUT NOT parenting! Why not? IMO, unregulated parenting mowed down all those kids at Columbine and unregulated parenting cut the heads off of those journalists in the Middle East. It is a miracle that unregulated parenting did not send us two boys out into the world as murderers or worse even though my brother came close. I could have been a very serious criminal if only I had the guts to do it! I had all of the parental conditioning and influences to be a school shooter or serial killer thanks to the unregulated parenting that I was given.

How about you? Would you like to see parenting brought under the control and oversight of some kind of regulations like any other producer of DANGEROUS products? I would and sorely wish my parents had been controlled and inspected like any other producer of potentially dangerous goods. Fortunately we now have CPS so maybe that’s a step in the right direction to managing the worlds most dangerous business – Parenting.

jim

[kaliope]

I agree with what you are sayng to a certain degree. parting is a big responsibility and many people go into it with no knowledge of experience. face it, anybody can have a kid and many are unprepared to do so. if parenting classes were more available and attractive, this would be helpful. I work with families though and it isn't always about parenting. sometimes they are doing all the right things and there is just something "wrong" with the kid.

[Victoria'smom]

There has been a form of CPS since 1912, CPS is not new. My parents have very few influences except who watches us. They participate in 57 hours of their children's life a week if they're lucky. Add home work, dinner, daily care it gives parents 21 hours to influence their child if they are lucky. Then sports and driving and your down to the low teens.

I wasn't allowed to adopt so we decided to have a child. No amount of money, interviews, or paperwork boils down to being a good parent. Parenting classes are BS. My parents are not responsible for my successes or failures. There are some things that parents can't teach. I don't feel it's the parent's fault for murderers, rapists, ect..... I'm sorry that is to simplified and just plan wrong, IMO.

I'm sorry you seem to be using your parents as a escape goat instead of looking into who you are.

[BioAdoptMom3]

I taught school for 31 years and have seen my share of bad parenting! Its out there and responsible for a lot of negative behaviors in our society. However, there are also a very high percentage of cases where the child has a mental disorder or illness and nothing the parents do or don't do is going to have much effect, if it has any at all! After going through what we have gone through with our daughter I will never judge another parent as long as I live! We raised 2 boys who are in their 20s. Both have been to college, have good jobs, are hard workers and have always been pleasant, polite and respectful (well, maybe not every minute of the day ). One is married and will clean the house and prepare dinner if he gets home from work first. He also offered up his last $2 of allowance money when he was 12 for a homeless child in my class. Enter our daughter, 17 days old, preemie drug baby who came as a foster child. She was a delightful baby! We all loved and adored her from the day she came to our home. We adopted her at age 2 1/2. She is gifted, musical, athletic and pretty, has so much going for her. We really didn't do much different with her as far as parenting, though I am sure with 2 much older brothers and being the only girl she is a bit spoiled. However that would not explain flying off the handle at the slightest provocation, cutting herself, anorexia, bulimia, talking back, smoking pot, raiding a liquor cabinet with her friend at her friend's house, considering suicide and even attempting it! After three years of a living hell in our home by the grace of God we were led to a gifted child psychiatrist who diagnosed her with bipolar, placed her on two very effective medications and we now have our child back! I cannot tell you the number of times over during various hospitalizations my husband and I were told to read parenting books or consider a parenting class! We would leave those sessions frustrated and in tears.

So many times, far too many, behavior of a child has little or nothing to do with the skills of the parent! Again, not all, but far too often to blame all bad behavior on poor parenting skills!

Nancy

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by kaliope

I work with families though and it isn't always about parenting. sometimes they are doing all the right things and there is just something "wrong" with the kid.

re: there is just something "wrong" with the kid.
me:That seems to be the standard dodge or excuse that adults offer in regards to problem kids when the adults are at a loss to explain why their so-called "good" parenting is FAILING. My answer to that is - LOOK A LITTLE DEEPER AND TRY A LITTLE HARDER - YOU (the adult) HAVE ALL THE POWER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I accept that maybe something was indeed "wrong" with me like maybe some "disorder" or some "genetic thing" BUT my parents, not me, had the power and right-of-way to HELP me but they DID NOT! Now that I am no longer a helpless child, I can see that my parents, more than me, were most likely victims of some "disorder" or whatever BUT no adult would have ever told them that yet would have stood by my inadequate parents to point the finger at me. And since I was in no position to agree or disagree with their conclusions, they would have made me WRONG and them RIGHT - just like what you wrote here: "it isn't always about parenting. sometimes they are doing all the right things and there is just something "wrong" with the kid." Exactly what is the "something" that is wrong with the kid? Why not figure out exactly what is WRONG with the kid instead of simply accepting the parents claim of doing everything RIGHT???? And who is to say these PERFECT parents have indeed done "all the right things"? Parents do LIE you know!
My parents would have told the whole word that they were doing everything exactly "right" and most of the adult world would have soberly agreed with them while CONDEMNING me! Even at the age of 4, I could have told these wise and perfect adults what is WRONG with me but nobody ever asked me! I could have said "Something is seriously WRONG with my parents which is scaring the crap out of me and that is why I am WETTING THE BED every single night for several years in a row!" or whatever other thing that was WRONG with me. I would have told any doctor or any interested adult that my parents are the problem but nobody ever asked me plus I didn't have the language and understanding back then to say it in a sensible way. But even if I had complained about their parenting, all the adults would have made EXCUSES for them and found a way to BLAME me - just like you are doing here!

Since you work with families, have you ever seriously asked any of these WRONG kids what they believe is wrong? Do you even know HOW to help a kid tell you what is "wrong"? If any of them had ever said "It's mommy and daddy!" would you have DARED to confront the parents with that?

IMO, it's always about parenting in the sense that, as a child, I was totally dependent on my parents abilities and good will BUT they, not I, had the flaws and deficiencies that contributed to my "issues" plus they had the power to either help me or harm me and I am sure they would have said "We've done everything just right (perfectly) but he's still not OK - SO IT MUST BE HIM!!!" And all of the other adults would have soberly AGREED with them!

Just because adults cannot figure out where they are going wrong, is no excuse to put ALL the blame on their mysterious kids who have no defense against adult incompetence. It has been a long standing tradition to dump the hot potato onto the defenseless when the powerful cannot figure out how to manage a situation but rather than feel helpless or impotent, the best solution for those in charge is to just say "something is WRONG with the kid! because the adults could NEVER BE WRONG!" Hence to concept of "Bad Seed".

[jimmy rich]

Originally Posted by Miguel'smom

There has been a form of CPS since 1912, CPS is not new.

Hello:
I'm sorry that nobody, who could plainly see what was happening in our SICK family, ever had the GUTS to call CPS on behalf of us kids so we had NO defenses against our very SICK parents!

My parents have very few influences except who watches us. They participate in 57 hours of their children's life a week if they're lucky. Add home work, dinner, daily care it gives parents 21 hours to influence their child if they are lucky. Then sports and driving and your down to the low teens.

LOL, so what's your point?

I wasn't allowed to adopt so we decided to have a child. No amount of money, interviews, or paperwork boils down to being a good parent.

So exactly what does being a good parent boil down to, in your opinion?

Parenting classes are BS.

All INADEQUATE parents say that! If Parenting Classes are so bad, what is an alternative in your opinion?

My parents are not responsible for my successes or failures.

Mine were - up to about age 5-6!

There are some things that parents can't teach.

Since you are a parent, what are some of the things that parents "can't teach" and what are some that they CAN TEACH?

I don't feel it's the parent's fault for murderers, rapists, ect..... I'm sorry that is to simplified and just plan wrong, IMO.

Well, that's your opinion!

I'm sorry you seem to be using your parents as a escape goat instead of looking into who you are.

I am sorry that you are so WRONG and so critical but that is the defensive way most parents react to anyone who dares to question parents or their Parenting. IMO, parenting is NOT some Sacred Cow!
By the way, oh wise One, who are you?

No one is saying that you were not affected by your parents or that your parents were not at fault.

They are trying to express that it is not always down to parenting. Some children are born with a genetic predisposition towards certain behaviours.

You seem to have decided that because you have parental issues everyone else must too.

[jimmy rich]

[quote=BioAdoptMom3;3988715]
Hello: I wasn't there so all I can contribute is either my current understanding or my own childhood experiences.

Enter our daughter, 17 days old, preemie drug baby who came as a foster child. She was a delightful baby! We all loved and adored her from the day she came to our home. We adopted her at age 2 1/2.

IMO, at 2 ½ she could have already been suffering with mental/emotional damages that none of you were able to notice.

We really didn't do much different with her as far as parenting, though I am sure with 2 much older brothers and being the only girl she is a bit spoiled. However that would not explain flying off the handle at the slightest provocation,

When did that start and what did you, the parents, do to help her overcome that behavior? What parenting skills did you use to HELP her with that?

"cutting herself,"

me: Surely that didn’t start suddenly. When did she begin doing that and what parenting skills did you use to HELP her stop cutting her self?

"anorexia, bulimia,"

me: How did all of that happen and what parenting skills did you use to HELP her stop it? How is it that you didn't do something to HELP her right away???? I'm not a parent but, as the child I once was, I know for certain that my "issues" did NOT suddenly appear over night for NO reason at all and that my ignorant and negligent parents FAILED to notice what was going wrong with us kids until it was way TO LATE to help us.

"talking back,"

me: IMO, that is glaring evidence of inadequate parenting skills. How did you deal with that to HELP her return to normal behavior and RESPECT? For me, talking back was a blatant expression of the loss of respect that I had for my very inadequate parents but, in my case, they would have knocked me across the room for talking back so I did it under my breath. They, not me, DESTROYED the respect that I had for them from day one and replaced it with THEIR CONTEMPT. I would NEVER have talked back to my parents if they had maintained the love and respect that once was there between us!

"smoking pot, raiding a liquor cabinet with her friend at her friend's house"

me: Common! Where were you when she started with that? How did you let her get so bad and LOST??? Us kids eventually got into a lot of unsavory things all because our parents FAILED to notice what we were doing and let us slowly sink into more and more bad behavior such as you describe here. They had good enough parenting skills to teach us how to put our chairs back under the table when finished, eat quietly, say please and thank you BUT not enough good parenting skills to HELP us stay away from drinking, smoking pot, lying, stealing, cursing, cheating, breaking others property and other CORRUPT things! THEY JUST WERE NOT THERE!

"considering suicide and even attempting it!"

me: So where were both of you when this behavior first emerged? What parenting skills, that worked so well with your boys, did you use to HELP your daughter? IMO, this is just another example of negligent, disconnected and BAD parenting skills. Exactly HOW DID YOU FAIL to notice what was happening to your own child?? How come you didn’t see any of this happening BEFORE it got so bad?? What did you both do for your sons that somehow did not work for your daughter????

I can tell you where our pathetic parents were while my brother and I began: smoking pot, stealing, lying, cursing, drinking, destroying things and becoming terrible kids (I thought of suicide at about 6 yo but couldn't figure out how to kill myself without pain! By then, I hated my home life and was terrified of my parents and I just wanted OUT OF THERE!). They were LOST in their own unhappy, self-centered and SICK world so us boys had NO HELP or guidance from our very negligent and IGNORANT parents as we slowly sank further and further into serious corruption which eventually led my brother to State Prison! Medications might have saved us kids from the very bad parenting we were getting but GOOD parenting would have HELPED us a lot better, IMO. I imagine some "doctor" would have told my very ignorant parents to put us on some kind of meds and that would have been real swell for our pathetic parents BUT it would never have undone the parental damages that they both had done to us and only masked the inner turmoil that us boys were struggling with. Like you, I am sure our parents would have just loved to have two pleasantly doped up robots for sons!

After three years of a living hell in our home by the grace of God we were led to a gifted child psychiatrist who diagnosed her with bipolar, placed her on two very effective medications and we now have our child back!

I am very happy for you and your child but I wonder what will happen to her when that temporary medical patch wears off or she can no longer use the meds to keep her daemons under control? She may look real good to both of you in her temporarily DOPED UP state now but what about all of the negative inner conditioning and faulty parenting that first led up to her mental/emotional problems?

I cannot tell you the number of times over during various hospitalizations my husband and I were told to read parenting books or consider a parenting class! We would leave those sessions frustrated and in tears.

Yet obviously not frustrated enough to actually HELP your suffering and troubled child BEFORE things got so bad and so serious! My parents had 1000s of opportunities to both see and FIX the issues in us boys YEARS before things got so bad for my brother that he finally went to Prison BUT they were just to perfect to ever bother with HELPING their rotten little kids when they SHOULD HAVE & COULD HAVE! Their negligence and stupidity costs their kids dearly but they just kept blaming us kids or something else for what they caused and created in the first place with their totally bad parenting skills.

So many times, far too many, behavior of a child has little or nothing to do with the skills of the parent! Again, not all, but far too often to blame all bad behavior on poor parenting skills!

In my case, nobody has blamed ALL bad behavior on poor parenting skills BUT I can say that 99.99 % of what was wrong with us kids was about bad parenting skills! I would be more than happy to fill up the rest of this page - like a whole book - to demonstrate where each and every symptom us kids showed was directly connected to BAD parenting skills and where each positive symptom we had is directly connected to GOOD parenting skills and where some of our symptoms are currently beyond me to explain. I have the freedom to do this because I am NOT a parent so I don't have to defend or excuse my parenting skills or those of other parents but I was a child who suffered from bad parenting and now I understand where they and others went wrong.
If I were a parent, I would take all of this writing and these opinions and USE them to HELP me IMPROVE my parenting skills INSTEAD of challenging anyone who questions parenting or stubbornly DEFENDING myself and my current parenting skills like some angry little kid defending it's sand castle. If I were a parent, I would move heaven and earth to HELP my kids rather than fight with anyone who has the audacity to question my excellent parenting skills. If I were a parent, my kids well being would come before my adult PRIDE regarding parenting skills. If I were a parent, I would WELCOME any ideas or concepts that might HELP my kids grow up mentally and emotionally healthy instead of fighting endlessly with everyone about MY parenting skills!
good luck,
jim

[FooZe]

This thread seems to have turned into an argument. I'm going to close it while we discuss what needs to be done with it.