This child is going to kill me.

I nanny for 5-year-old twin boys, one of whom rarely shows remorse and seems to think hurting others is fun. I love both boys, and have been trying for the past year to work through the increasing behavioral challenges with this child. After today, though, I'm thinking about leaving.

It all started because this boy--"Toby"--wanted a special toy that belongs to his brother. He was told no. All morning, this ate at him. He kept bringing it up, shouting and stomping each timr he was denied. Finally, he was getting too upset over it. I usually will hug/sit with/talk it out with the boys when they're getting this way. I went over to Toby, reached out my arms for a hug. He smiled, looked right in my eyes, and then reached out, yanked down my shirt, and bit me on the breast.

Really. He just leaned in, like he was going to hug me, gtabbed my shirt, yanked it down, and bit me, HARD. It was like he was deliberately going for the most sensitive area possible. I have a high pain tolerance, but I screamed. My first instinct wad to hit/push/do whatever I had to to get him off, but I fought it, and I pushed against his shoulders as lightly as possible... and he would not budge. I had to squeeze the sides of his mouth, forcing his mouth open, to get him off of me. Then of course I'm crying/upset, saying "No! We don't treat people that way!" And he laughed. Then he split all the knuckles on one hand by punching me in the mouth, laughing all the while.

It was time to go to school, so I picked him up (kicking and screaming) to take him downstairs. I tried talking to him calmly, I tried letting him sit/calm down, I tried consequences...I finally got him into his shoes, and he promptly started kicking me in the stomach. He saif he wanted to go to school, so I got him down the stairs. When he got into the car, he was mad again, but I finally got him buckled in, and shut his door. His twin, on the other side, was sitting quietly in his own seat, ready to leave. As soon as I closed the door, Toby unbuckled himself and launched himself at his brother, repeatedly punching him in the face before I could pull him off.

I called their grandmother and asked her to meet us at the school, so that I could at least take Toby's twin inside. Toby had calmed down enough for me to drive, and his brother was shaken but otherwise okay. As we drove, Toby started matter-of-factly saying things like, "I hate you. I hope you die. I'm gonna tell Mama you hit me. Then you can never come back. So ha!" Then he would laugh. It was disturbing.

The moment we pulled up next to his grandmother, the smile vanished and was replaced by a pouty lip and puppy-dog eyes. She opened his door and he says "Grammy, I'm having a bad day!" And promptly starts wailing. Totally dry-eyed... It was like a switch flipped. Scary to watch.

Anyway, his grandmother took him for the day and I spoke to his mother about the behavior. I don't know what she plans to do, if anything. I myself am at a loss--I have NEVER seen a child behave this way! When I was speaking to his mother, he was trying to get her attention, and she firmly told him no. He responded by punching her in the stomach and the laughing about it. That was when I bowed out. I could hear her shouting.

This kid clearly has behavioral problems that I didn't sign up for. Is it wrong that I want to leave? I don't know that my mental health can take much more of this. I don't want to get punched/kicked/bitten every day. He's large for 5. It hurts. I don't know that I can continue to keep my composure with him. I have a deep, purple-black bruise where he bit me, and he split my lip. I don't want to keep doing this.

I would leave. This kid is seriously disturbed. There is probably something deeply flawed in the dynamics between the kid and his parent(s.) What about the father? If you stay, you are at risk of getting somehow blamed for continuing mischief this kid is going to get into. (And "mischief" understates what I can imagine this kid doing.)

This child needs to be in the care of someone trained to work with mentally/emotionally disturbed children. If I were you, I wouldn't take that responsibility. Five years old is too old to behave like that. Something is really wrong in that home. I'ld get out of there.

Totally agree with Rose. Do you work thru an agency? You should inform them of your concerns.

Wow! I definitely agree with the others that responded. This child is in serious need of some help!
As someone who has babysat for about 100 children over the years (individual families, kids in my extended family/friends children, church nurseries etc) this behavior is obviously not normal and goes well beyond the typical "testing the waters," that would be developmentally appropriate or expected.
I can certainly see why this child's brother might be afraid of him at times and I too wonder what the heck is or has been going on in that home!
I don't blame you if you decide to quit. This child could hurt you even worse next time! Also, perhaps if you quit and are honest with the mom as to why, it might be the motivation SHE needs to get her hurting child the help he needs and deserves.
May I also suggest you watch the bite area for signs of infection--which you probably are already doing lol. Maybe make sure all your immunizations are up to date also!

I'm with everyone who's commented so far. I'd have to leave, and report this behavior to an agency that deals with dangerous children. This is not normal.

Oh, and if they have any pets, call a rescue or (preferably no-kill) shelter and see if they'll do something, because those animals need someone to stand up for them.

Please leave. He is deeply disturbed. He could even be dangerous. Imagine if he was mad and got his hands on a pair of scissors. I don't know if you can report him somewhere but this kid needs help pronto. It's a matter of time. He's a missile aimed at humanity.

Oh dear Lord, that is disturbing!!! This child is a serious menace!!!! YES, I would leave and not look back. The child needs psychiatric and behavioral help. It's too dangerous. (((hugs)))

Thank you so much for your support and advice. When you're in something like this, it can be hard to see it clearly. I am so utterly shocked. Until now, I've considered them to be the absolute best family I've ever worked for. Their mom is responsive and attentive to them, she communicates well with me, and the other twin is a happy, thriving, extremely gifted child. Toby has had some behavioral problems; he's had tantrums, mood swings, and he's even hit/kicked/ or bitten me in anger before, but there was never anything like yesterday. Never anything that I would consider being outside the realm of just a difficult child. Yesterday though, he got angry, stewed on it, waited, and then sought out to hurt me in the best way he could. He waited until his brother was alone with him (that split second when I vlosed the car door) to hurt him. I am completely shocked. I have never seen anything in their household to justify this. They don't have pets, thank God. I do wonder if there are deeper psychological issues at play here with this child and whether he needs to be seen by a behavioral specialist and under the care of someone more trained than I. I have a psychology degree, but this is way out of my depth. I'm worried about my ability to handle it as well; I was SO angry with him after yesterday, I worry that in the future, I won't be able to remain calm, and might end up spanking/slapping out of anger, which I have never done to any child. That anger scares me. You're all right, time to move on

Yes, this child needs to be seen by a behavioral specialist. I have worked in mental health myself for many years, with maladaptive children, and have studied clinical psychology. The child is very disturbed, to say the least, and needs professional evaluation and help before he hurts anyone else. If I were his mother, I would be getting him a professional ASAP after hearing about this last incident. I am surprised he is not being seen already, given that he punches his own mother and has the symptoms you've described.

For your own safety and personal well-being, it is definitely best to leave - as Jennifer said, who knows what else this child is capable of, and it could escalate to much worse next time. And as you say, who knows how you will react next time. It just seems like an impossible situation right now to deal with. Think of your safety first. I am glad to hear you saying "time to move on". ((((Hugs)))))

Also, their father is a sperm bank. Literally. Just the Mom in this situation.

Rayne Selene. You should leave immediately. It is the right thing to do. I'm not sure why staying would even be an option. You posted about this before. You said Toby had autism. But this behavior doesn't sound like autism, even if he does have it. It sounds dangerous, and you need to leave. It is the professional, safe, and right thing to do.

Yes, he does need to see a behavioral psychologist. He needs professional help. You have been assaulted by him. You need to get out.

Starrysky, I agree, and I'm going to. In the past, I've come here when I'm too upset to see straight; today, more just for affirmation as I make this decision. Toby is on the spectrum, I didn't mention it this time because it tends to dominate the conversation. And you're right, this is not a part of the normal territory that comes with Autism. That's part of what made me realize I can't do this; really can't. I was so unsettled because he wasn't in sensory overload, he wasn't anxious, he wasn't having a meltdown. He just set out to hurt, intentionally. And Autism definitely doesn't excuse that, and I don't know how to help him overcome that kind of urge. Time to go.

I don't think I'm going to nanny anymore, either. I've applied for jobs teaching ESL online, where I can work from home, work fewer hours, and set my own schedule; much easier and less stressful while I finish school. And away from biting teeth.

The moment I walked in today, their mom said, "Please don't quit on me!" Hello, guilt 😔 within five minutes of her leaving, I had been punched in the mouth again. So....yeah. I'm definitely done.

That mom needs to prioritize that child. This is the unfolding of issues that point to this kid being destined for a ruined life. She's asking you to stay, but I don't hear where she's saying she's making a plan to address this. This would be like your kid running a high fever, and you don't think you need to head for the pediatrician's office.

Number 1, she needs to call and make an appointment with her pediatrician. The child's doctor should then refer her to a child behavioral expert. And she needs to not delude herself that this is something that can principally be addressed with medication . . . which is what mothers nowadays often want to believe. I don't think it's just a coincidence that there is no father in this home. Depending on her resources, she may need to enroll this boy into a program for very maladjusted children. Here's a short article: Violent Behavior in Children and Adolescents

Here's another relevant article: Violent Behavior in Children and Adolescents

For you to stick around absorbing abuse from this child would be you enabling a bad situation, so jettison the guilt. The mother is in over her head with this and does not know how to effectively parent this child. It is probably indicated that this child attend a facility on a day basis, or as a resident. I've worked in child psychiatric treatment facilities. The kids are there for one reason: they are dangerous. Kids as young as five are treated in these places. Some go home every afternoon. Some are there round the clock. These are kids who could not be managed by their parents, or in "treatment foster care" because they are just too violent. Yes, as young as five. I didn't stay in this line of work long. It's extremely challenging. Working with adult inmates in prison is easier. But staff who do stay with this kind of work include some very gifted people and it does take very specialized training. Expecting you to deal with this behavior is ridiculous. The mother can't even deal with it. She needs major help from trained professionals.

Holy cow! All I can do is agree with the others. Run fast...run far. You don't have the training to deal with this kind of child. To me he sounds more like a sociopath than autism. But that's just my opinion.

Sociopath and psychopathy (more commonly and scientifically Antisocial Personality Disorder) cannot be diagnosed until a person is 18 years old. The childhood equivalent (or precursor) would be Conduct Disorder, which is often seen with Oppositional Defiance Disorder.

My friends oldest son is diagnosed high functioning ADD, with severe ADHD, and probable Bipolar 1. He is just 11 or 12 now, so they are hesitant to diagnose the bipolar right now. But he did fit the criteria for ODD for a while. With therapy, and parenting changes, she was able to manage and help him with some off the worse behaviors. He was, however, nowhere near what "Toby" has done.

About Conduct Disorder:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduc...er?wprov=sfla1

Usually, I don't reference Wikipedia, but the author of this particular article did well and used a lot of references. Still, it is Wikipedia, so there is always the doubt of authenticity.

I think we overly rely on "the medical model." We tend to say what has this child "got" that is making him this way? Maybe it's what he "hasn't got" that is making him as he is. A human baby born into a middle class household with an educated mother is not born one bit more civilized than the baby who was born to a cave woman in prehistoric times. If you took a newborn Swiss or Canadian baby and dropped him off in the jungles of New Guinea with a family of head hunters, he'ld come to find cannibalism an acceptable part of life. Babies aren't born with "values." They have to be instilled. That happens through family dynamics, among other influences. It may be that there just isn't enough good dynamics going on in that home to civilize this child.

A woman has five year old twins she got through an encounter with a "sperm donor." That's a pretty amoral foundation right there. By now the kid has noticed that other kids have dads and he doesn't. Of course not all fatherless kids are monsters. But, when they're not, maybe some good influence filled the gap. This kid may be less fortunate. Maybe this mother just has no aptitude for imparting good values and no one else who does has shown up.

I really don't want this to become about insulting their mother. She is a wonderful person who works very hard and cares for her children. She is beside herself with worry after this incident with her child. I myself grew up in a family with a very loving mother, who had plenty of morals and boundaries, and a brother who was abiut as difficult as a child can get. I watched my mom torment herself for years trying to help him, trying to be a "better" mother, wondering what she had done wrong. She did her best. The mom I'm working for, to my eyes, is doing her best.

Also, the boys were nit conceived in an amoral situation (not that it's relevant or anyones place to judge...) They LITERALLY come from an actual sperm bank. They were artificially inseminated. Test-tube babies. She got to a point in life where she didn't have a husband but wanted children, and that is HER choice and one I will never judge her for. Having a dad around is not a cure-all for bad behavior.

Hearing the rude and ill-informed comments looking to blame this child's behavior on the mother-- just because she used artificial insinuation to conceive her children-- is extremely disheartening. Children raised by single parents and gay parents can be just as well-adjusted as children raised by a mother and father. Leave the prejudice out of this thread, which is about how to help the OP who is deciding whether or not she wants to continue working for this family. Calling artificial insemination and single mothers amoral is extremely offensive. Are you next going to call widows raising children amoral?

I think their mother does understand her child needs help, she may not know how to go about it, or feel that getting him help would be admitting she failed in some way. I see her saying "don't quit on me" as a compliment to you. She respects you, Rayne, and she us terrified of having to deal with him alone.

I think she knows that other nannies wouldn't stay for nearly as long as you have. You developed a connection with these boys and her, and that is why it's so hard for you to leave, I believe. But I also think you quitting might be what it takes for her to get him the help he needs. The last straw, so to speak.

Losing such a caring and competent nanny can be heartbreaking for any family... maybe try telling her that you just cannot put up with his behavior and the risk to your bodily safety anymore. She needs to try to help her son, for herself and for the other boy.

But as much as you care for all three of them, you do need to take care of yourself first and foremost.

Can you think of a rationale whereby an argument could be made that it is wrong for you to want to leave?

Suppose a poster replies, "Yes, Rayne, it is wrong for you to leave?" Are you earnestly willing to entertain that?

If you knew someone who was in your situation, could you think of some good reasons to encourage them to stay on?

We live in an era of changing ideas about right and wrong. Some things that were once considered wrong are no longer considered wrong. I applaud a good many of those changes. I'm glad that most parents no longer feel they have to be ashamed of a daughter who gets pregnant out of wedlock, or a son who falls in love with someone else's son. The judgementalism that those scenarios used to evoke didn't do anyone any good. So we are living at a time when we are seeing life for everyone improved by people letting go of some old notions about what need or needn't be condemned. In attempting to be on board the spirit of that new zeitgeist, people are sometimes losing confidence that they have any right to think anything is wrong? Like, shouldn't everyone's choices be respected? I think that can be taken too far.

We find a woman saying, "I'm thinking of leaving my husband because he beats me black and blue and broke my jaw last month. Am I wrong to feel that way?" (We've got threads like that.) It's like we have come to attach some virtue in going around open to everythng and accepting of anything. In contrast to being a society where we used to be quick to criticize, the new ideal seems to be that no one's choices should be critiqued. This woman you work for made a choice she had a legal right to make. There's no law against a woman having children via the services of a sperm bank. It's not particularly my business how anyone's child came into being, and I'm not looking to try and make it so. However, I do believe there is a price for everything in life. For a woman to decide to have children without enlisting the services of a loving and devoted father is, in my opinion, risky business. She thought it would work out okay, and it hasn't. I'm sorry for her . . . and for the kid.

Sometimes it does work out. Shouldn't anyone who wants children have a right to them? I'm not sure there is such a right, morally. It's become politically correct to defend that as a right, though we've never really had a national discussion and debate about the morality of it. It might not matter if we did because people are going to do what they're going to do. We've pretty much decided that controlling people's reproductive choices is not consistent with our ideals of personal freedom . . . and I agree with that. In any case, this is not the place for me to introduce that topic.

However, if you're going to more or less rebuke my post as being close-minded, intolerant and inappropriately insulting of this mother, then I have a question: What did you want this thread to be about? I don't think a five year old chooses to be a little monster. Even if this kid literally killed someone, he would not be charged with murder because the law does not hold five year olds responsible. So is it appropriate for us to just chime in with: "Wow, what a right little devil this kid is?" You seem to not mind that. Is this thread about you needing help to work your way through a quandary? Are you confused about whether or not you you should object to being chewed and punched and having your blouse ripped away?

I guess I'm confused. Something needs to be done. I don't hold the kid responsible for solving this mess. And it is a mess of a situation. I'm not saying the mother isn't earnestly doing the best she knows how to do. I strongly suspect she is. I suspect that you've done a job as nanny that's as good as that mother is going to get from anyone she hires. So does that mean that the mom and you should just carry on doing as you've been doing? The mom seems to think so. She's implored you not to "quit." Where do you think that's going to lead to?

It is because I think the mom has done the best she knows how that I say she is in over her head. She got into the business of child rearing thinking that a heart full of love is basically enough. It's not. She was brave and she took a risk. A dad in the home correlates with better outcomes for kids, especially male children. As you say, it's not a guarantee. And some wonderful men have been raised by women without partners. All of that is moot, now, because the kids are here, and their father agreed to provide sperm and nothing more. Too late to get him involved.

I've lived long enough to be able to read between lines. This kid didn't wake up this way the other morning. This is just the latest escalation. The mother needs to come up with a better game plan than asking you to please not give up on her and Junior, inducing your guilt, summoning up your pity for her plight - which is pitiable. She needs to face reality and not even want to put you at risk. She needs help . . . way beyond what you can provide.

Yes, this kid "set out to hurt, intentionally." This behavior was not a product of autism. This kid is failing to develop the rudimentary moral compass that even five year olds who are developmentally delayed typically do manage to have in place. This is an issue of transmitting moral values to a developing child. Even nice people can fail at that. An argument can be made that the kid is just a bad seed . . . that he'ld be a little monster no matter what kind of a home he were born into. I don't believe that - which is simply my opinion and anyone can reject it.

This has been going on since Cain and Abel. Look who their parents were. Their Grandparents!!

Good point, luna. That's why I don't believe in being mad at parents for everything that goes wrong in the lives of their children. If that were true, then everyone's problems could be traced back to Adam and Eve. (Wait a minute . . . isn't that what they told us in Sunday school? You know - original sin and all?)

Evolution used to mainly be about experimenting with different gene combinations. That's no longer true for humans. We no longer evolve to adapt to our environment. Instead, we control our environment and change it to suit how we are. Now, evolution is about experimenting with different ideas. Good people can have bad ideas . . . ideas that just don't work out. Adam Lanza's mother thought that immersing herself and her son in the gun culture would be a good outlet for the both of them. Going to the shooting range together has been a positive bonding experience for some parents and their children. It wasn't for the Lanza family of Newtown, CT. I suspect Adam's mother was a decent person who meant well. She knew her son was pretty disturbed. She cared deeply and worried greatly. (She told one sitter not to leave young Adam alone for even the time it takes to use the bathroom.) Maybe, in a world without violent video games, Adam might not have felt inspired to shoot up the local grammar school. Parents aren't the only source of the ideas that kids pick up. Kids pick up ideas, and their brains generate some ideas spontaneously. A brain left to itself can generate lots of bad ideas, which is why minds need to be fed a consistent diet of good ideas, especially when they are young and developing. Giving kids hugs isn't enough.

Most adults don't relish being alone without someone to love and be loved by. This mother was a woman who had not found her soul mate. That's a lonely way to live. So she brings a couple of kids into that scenario. She may naively have believed that her life would then feel less lonely. I don't know anyone raising a kid who thinks doing it alone is the way to go. Hardest job in the world and good to have a partner in doing it. I have no reason to doubt that impression that this woman is a good person. But I think she's got an approach to life that isn't working for her.