[3xjj]

Anybody have any thoughts of how lack of empathy develops? I was raised by a mother with Borderline PD and experienced verbal/emotional abuse although no physical abuse. I actually over-empathize with animals and other people; I hate the idea of anybody or anything being in pain. However, I'm often attracted to people who have a lack of empathy.

I was wondering if anyone wanted to share their personal theory about how this comes about. Is it present from birth? Is it so much abuse and suffering as a child that you worry only about yourself (because there's no one else looking out for your best interest)? Is it so much pain from childhood that you just shut all feelings off? I'm curious on hearing anyone's thoughts.

[Perna]

Empathy is "learned". If you don't learn to recognize and identify your own feelings correctly, it is not likely you will learn to recognize and identify what someone else is feeling so you can empathize with them.

[carpe_diem44]

I shared a similar childhood. This sounds like what I describe as "not connecting/liking with people." I now think it's the emotional "numbing" that is common with C-PTSD. Complex PTSD is associated with sustained or repeated childhood abuse. My understanding is that we get stuck in survival (fight or flight) mode... some senses/emotions heightened, some turned off/dulled.

[Teacake]

I thought we develop empathy as part of the development of self. I don't know the whole theory of how we get a self, but we begin life onside our mother. She is our world. Then our world expels us and we struggle out and there is the world again, same voice and organ rhythms but brighter and colder and dryer and we must work to be nourished.

We are only aware of consciousness. Slowly we become aware that we exist. We may first exist together with mother. "there is no such thing as a baby alone". Then we realise we exist apart from mother. Does she exist apart from us?

In symbiosis, or the blissful state of being one with mommy, we are the center of her world and she orbits around us. We feel her feelings because we are not separate from her. She feels our feelings too.

Empathy is the many experiences of the wonder of being separate and together, of being mother and infant and then just me.

There is a reason the image of Madonna and child is so central to religion, and why the oldest gods are the mother gods, the woman gods.

I think empathy arises out of those early experiences with mother.

If mother is missing pr.defective or needs us to orbit her...we miss out. I do not know if we can develope.empathy with healing or early wounds. I have know. People who.do not experience empathy. My mother is one. She can be kind and compassionate anyway. I've felt her dismay and confusion about empathic understandings dad and I.shared.

It is a fascinating thing.

[here today]

I think you may be on to something, Teacake. You said that your mother could be kind and compassionate – and I’ve known some other women who had BPD who could be, too. Maybe the sense of connection is about “are you present in the moment with me”. My dictionary defines empathy as “understanding so intimate that the feelings, thoughts, and motives of one are readily comprehended by another.”

Sometimes the women I was talking about were intensely with me on the same wavelength. Other times they were off on their own wavelength, not seeming to notice that I wasn’t there, too.

[shakespeare47]

The topic of empathy is an interesting one to me. I suspect my mother was borderline, she beat me at least once that I know about.... she was angry and just mean at times, and I suspect she took out her anger (because she had an abusive spouse), on us kids. I have nothing but bad memories of her from my childhood. She was just so angry all the time, and never showed any empathy towards me, that I recall. I don't recall so much as a hug.... ever.

However, I never noticed any lack of empathy in myself. I haven't really worked out if that is because I just don't understand it, or because I really do have empathy. I know that I can watch a sad movie and be so into it, that I feel sorry for the characters and start crying in appropriately sad scenes.

However, my T has suggested (more than actually claimed) he sees a lack of empathy.

[Open Eyes]

"However, I never noticed any lack of empathy in myself. I haven't really worked out if that is because I just don't understand it, or because I really do have empathy. I know that I can watch a sad movie and be so into it, that I feel sorry for the characters and start crying in appropriately sad scenes." quote shakespheare

If you are moved in a "sad" movie and feel for the charectors, you have empathy IMHO.

My mother was not loved and cuddled as a child growing up but she definitely is empathetic and was a loving "caring" mother. She was very vain and loved attention, probably had a bit of "narcissistic" traits to her, but honestly, a lot of people have "some" narcissitic traits to them. My mother's love was always "unconditional", it was not all about "pleasing her".

Idk, I think your T is mistaking "PTSD apathy" for NPD. Is your T a PTSD therapy provider?

[shakespeare47]

I honestly don't know how versed he is in PTSD..... It's definitely possible that I suffer from PTSD... but, I have looked over the diagnosing criteria, and at first glance, I don't exhibit all the symptoms.

[Mattmx]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

I honestly don't know how versed he is in PTSD..... It's definitely possible that I suffer from PTSD... but, I have looked over the diagnosing criteria, and at first glance, I don't exhibit all the symptoms.

Eh, everyone is different. It'd be something worth bringing up I think. Some people show all the symptoms, some don't and treatment can be a lot different depending on the method and if it is ptsd or npd

[shakespeare47]

^lately I've been toying with the idea that I suffer from complex-PTSD. It makes sense with my background, traits and behaviors.

I know that my skills with having empathy are close to non existent. My childhood and upbringing are the reasons why which I already know. I will say though that I think if you are watching a movie and get sad with a character there are other reasons than empathy. Possibly you relate to what is happening and the feelings are brought out from the things you hold deep inside. I get upset when I see bad things happening to children, it bothers me very much and makes me extremely angry and sad. It could be because we see our own hurts and troubles in these characters. As far as empathy I cannot understand others emotions and feelings really at all. I go blank inside when my wife tries to explain her feelings of bother and hurt. I can also become annoyed and completely non understanding which isn't right but it is what it is. Do I have empathy? NO!! Do I have emotions? I DO I am pretty fu%^ing deep to the point many cannot understand. Our great friend SAM wrote about not being able to listen to music because of the effects it has on him. I can so relate to that except that I love to listen to music, it controls my moods in a way (may sound nuts to some). My wife knows it all too well, when she hears what I am listening too she knows where my mind is. Music gives me my emotions, take the song out of that sad part you cry over in these movies and you probably wont be so sad. I know I wouldn't be.

[waiting4]

Originally Posted by Underground

I get upset when I see bad things happening to children, it bothers me very much and makes me extremely angry and sad. It could be because we see our own hurts and troubles in these characters.

I love to listen to music, it controls my moods in a way (may sound nuts to some). My wife knows it all too well, when she hears what I am listening too she knows where my mind is. Music gives me my emotions, take the song out of that sad part you cry over in these movies and you probably wont be so sad. I know I wouldn't be.

Wow, Underground, you nailed it again, as usual. When I was over there, my ex and I were driving along a rather secluded patch, and a deer darted out into the road...we were going very slowly so we stopped until the deer seemed to find it's footing again (his hooves had been skittering along the pavement) and dashed back into the forest. I thought my ex was going to burst into tears--which is NOT like him--and commented on how panicked the deer had to have been. His expression nearly matched the deers and I swear it was unnerving.

He also loved to listen to music; would 'send' me tunes and with them I usually could figure out his mood. If he was angry, sad, pensive, frustrated...you name it...even when he was 'loving' me, he said it with tunes. It was interesting, informative, but in the end he still controlled what he wanted to say...i.e. if he was angry with me, the songs were always ambiguous enough that if I interpreted them one way, he could always claim he meant it another way. Clever, wot? *grin*

[Mattmx]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

^lately I've been toying with the idea that I suffer from complex-PTSD. It makes sense with my background, traits and behaviors.

Bring it up, and also bring up CBT. It's helpful for both but ptsd in particular

[Walkingaround]

I feel the same way with music. I talk trough it. I cant talk with words about feelings, cant hold on to them as long as i should if i'd talk. So I use music. I let everybody now what mood i'm at with it. Its my survival tactic. Its my way to relate.

This is how i use music;

"I cant feel emphaty, but i can post u a song that moves u. That gives u a sense or feeling that I'd care. Actually i dont. But u get the feeling i do. And thats how i keep u under my fingers. I let u feel what i want u to feel without saying anything. Without making promises or talking, but u take it like a promise, u think i feel. Actually it is not me feeling.. its u. "

My friend called my couple of monts ago and said her brother just died. I replayd ; and u seek help from me? Call someone else.

She knows me and she knows my lack of emphaty. She didnt have no-one else to call. So i posted her a song. She replayd " I knew u'd care. I knew u cared ! " - i didnt. but she still thinks i do, becouse of one song i posted. Music is my survival kit. And my never ending field of emphaty that only exists in a heart of listener.

[waiting4]

Originally Posted by Walkingaround

"I cant feel emphaty, but i can post u a song that moves u. That gives u a sense or feeling that I'd care. Actually i dont. But u get the feeling i do. And thats how i keep u under my fingers. I let u feel what i want u to feel without saying anything. Without making promises or talking, but u take it like a promise, u think i feel. Actually it is not me feeling.. its u. "

Music is my survival kit. And my never ending field of emphaty that only exists in a heart of listener.

And this, in a nutshell, is my ex and what he did, and I have no doubt, why he did it.