[Fontaine Moore]

A friend recently told me that a colleague of hers had said that a certain well-known person (not Trump) was a "subtle narcissist," and therefore, more dangerous. I texted her back and said that I didn't think her colleague knew what she was talking about because as far as I was concerned (I am an educational neuropsychologist so, not as well schooled in clinical), there was no such thing. Then I got to thinking and wondered what others who were well versed, either educationally or personally, about narcissism would have to say about this. To me, subtlety is far from the repertoire of behaviors of a narcissist. I'd appreciate hearing what you might have to say about this.

[CANDC]

What your colleague meant I am not sure. Here are two articles that seem closely related to your question.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://...OlLUW5jCPdS48w

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://...GLo58M0oDeaDGQ

[crosstobear]

Talking about Obama?

[Tauren]

I think I would describe my narcissistic "friend" as a subtle narcissist. On the surface she seems to be all about helping people. She does "spiritual healing" and all that. Her narcissim doesn't show much with casual acquaintences, but if one of her close circle DARES to question her ideas, she takes it as an attack and cuts them out of her life. She considers herself a guru and considers all her "friends" to be her followers. But you'd have to be pretty close to her to see it. Unless you're prepared to follow her, she won't let you in. I can only see it by the damage she's done to other people, not by her interactions with me personally, since I'm not one of her followers.

Without reading the articles that CANDC posted, I can confirm that there is a such thing as a covert narcissist and I'm likely a mild example of one myself.

I can be considerate, polite, or even humble, but in my mind, I'm better than most people both because I have a high IQ, and because I've had to endure abuse most of my life which makes me tougher and more resilient than most people. Often times, I call myself a demigod and use titles in many of my online aliases such as "Lord" or "Archon". Furthermore, I often wear a mask and lie and manipulate most people for my own self protection and if anybody dares try to expose my charade or call me out on my B.S, I push them out of my life.

This type of thinking doesn't hold me back in my life aside from romantic relationships (which I ruin due to a chronic fear and discomfort with closeness) and I can even make friends easily, but it takes years to earn my trust enough for me to reveal the "real" me which is fine because I like my circle small anyways.

In short, these types are more common than you might think and narcissism can manifest itself in more subtle ways.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by crosstobear

Talking about Obama?

LOL, epic!

Aren't I a "subtle" narcissist??? HA HA HA

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Underground

Aren't I a "subtle" narcissist??? HA HA HA

Oh yes of course you poor dear!





You're about as subtle as me! HA HA HA!

[crosstobear]

Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend

Often times, I call myself a demigod and use titles in many of my online aliases such as "Lord" or "Archon".

I lol'd.

Do what thou wilt, is the whole of the law they say...

[pearlys]

There seems to be a (unofficial) couple of subtypes of narcissism, so called hypervigilant, covert and inverted narcissism. Not sure if they are the same. To qualify for NPD you should meet 5 out of 9 criteria so you could have NPD without grandiosity.

I have been into (western tibetan) buddhism for a while. Imho lots of those "teachers" are inverted narcissists, also catholic priests and the same could be in other religions. If you doubt or criticize or don't follow their rituals somehow, some of them get mad. The same with some therapists. Once we were talking in a group session about helping others and that I get satisfaction from that. At the same time I asked myself: do I help others to feel good or do I help them to make them feel better and I said that "you therapists" make money because there are people suffering. She looked at me in an angry way and neglected me the rest of the session.

My personal opinion is that therapists (and also laymen) lable others to quickly as being a narcissist. If you watch carefully many people show traits of some personality disorder. As long as they function in life and don't really mistreat others, I don't think they have NPD.

[Tauren]

A qualified therapist would never label someone NPD unless they have the requisite number of traits. Lay people, however, are inclined to label anyone they don't like as having a personality disorder.

You seriously insulted your therapist by saying that, by the way. NOBODY goes into it for the money. It's too hard.

[pearlys]

You seriously insulted your therapist by saying that, by the way. NOBODY goes into it for the money. It's too hard.

It wasn't meant to be insulting, we were having an open discussion. I think I even said the [name of the private clinic] makes money instead of personally to the therapist. It was a private clinic, not a public one and it has cost me an enormous amount of money. I think they earn a bit more than a T in public health system.

Besides that, I suppose a therapist should resist insults I mean thats something subjective and things that they are somehow prepared. I mean how about a T session with a real narcissist.... We don't feel insulted if it is not the truth right? Or if we are strong enough and have enough self esteem.

But this is completely off topic, it was about hidden narcissism.

Originally Posted by Tauren

A qualified therapist would never label someone NPD unless they have the requisite number of traits. Lay people, however, are inclined to label anyone they don't like as having a personality disorder.

They should not, but sometimes it happens. Or they wrongly diagnoze one with NPD while he is BP. With disastrous results....

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by Tauren

A qualified therapist would never label someone NPD unless they have the requisite number of traits. Lay people, however, are inclined to label anyone they don't like as having a personality disorder.

You seriously insulted your therapist by saying that, by the way. NOBODY goes into it for the money. It's too hard.

Spot on about lay people. I have heard so many people say, "oh my ex was such an asshole he/she MUST have been a sociopath/narcissist/psychopath/whatever" and I often say, "well, it's possible that he/she was just an asshole, why pathologize it?"

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Spot on about lay people. I have heard so many people say, "oh my ex was such an asshole he/she MUST have been a sociopath/narcissist/psychopath/whatever" and I often say, "well, it's possible that he/she was just an asshole, why pathologize it?"

No kidding. To me, for the most part, personality disorder diagnosis are no different than stereotypical labels suck as "geek", "goth", "jock", or whatever else people call other people who fit into a specific subgroup.

While it is true that personality disorder diagnosis are justified sometimes, I think they are only relevant in the most extreme cases.

Another words, if somebody is an asshole, a liar, a manipulator, or is more selfish than normal, I don't think that they automatically qualify as a Narcissist, Sociopath, ASPD, or whatever other labels you want to throw on them.

[crosstobear]

It's even a big tendency among clinicians and clinical staff, unfortunately. Nurses especially tend to throw around personality disorder and other damning labels like candy. And even among clinicians in a team setting, there's so much boxing people into categories and dismissing them. Actually, a coworker who is also a clinician (who I had a crush on) rudely stared at the vertical scar I have on my wrist from when I was younger and now always brings up borderline personality disorder in convos with me, with a wink and a nudge. Shameful. Some will look at a Dx and treat a client accordingly, from a distance. Often the ones that work one-to-one with the client get to see the person for what he or she really is, but decisions are made in teams and everyone is consulted, and that's where you get a majority of the ******** from.

If anything, some narcissism is absolutely necessary.

Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend

No kidding. To me, for the most part, personality disorder diagnosis are no different than stereotypical labels suck as "geek", "goth", "jock", or whatever else people call other people who fit into a specific subgroup.

While it is true that personality disorder diagnosis are justified sometimes, I think they are only relevant in the most extreme cases.

Another words, if somebody is an asshole, a liar, a manipulator, or is more selfish than normal, I don't think that they automatically qualify as a Narcissist, Sociopath, ASPD, or whatever other labels you want to throw on them.

Love your third signature quote.

Originally Posted by crosstobear

Love your third signature quote.

Thanks! I've been feeling very machiavellian lately so I changed my quotes around to reflect that.

I agree. Everybody is narcissistic and psychopathic to some extent.

[crosstobear]

Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend

Thanks! I've been feeling very machiavellian lately so I changed my quotes around to reflect that.

I agree. Everybody is narcissistic and psychopathic to some extent.

Machiavelli is very wise. I feel the negative aura surrounding his name is largely due to people's unwillingness to accept his astute observation of human nature because it would implicate them. Same with Hobbes. Probably, my favorite philosophers are Hobbes, Machiavelli and Camus. One day, I'll get into Schopenhauer.

Originally Posted by crosstobear

Machiavelli is very wise. I feel the negative aura surrounding his name is largely due to people's unwillingness to accept his astute observation of human nature because it would implicate them. Same with Hobbes. Probably, my favorite philosophers are Hobbes, Machiavelli and Camus. One day, I'll get into Schopenhauer.

I couldn't agree more. Fact of the matter is that people fear that which they neither do not nor cannot understand. Few people are open minded enough to be able to appreciate the works of Machiavelli or other like-minded philosophers because their writings shatter the masses' illusion of reality.

I like the other philosophers you listed as well. While I didn't get too much into Schopenhauer or Hobbes, I liked Camus and he's one of my favorites as well along with Machiavelli, Rand, and Epicurus.

BTW, I like the Machiavelli quote you posted as your signature. I think I'm going to copy you

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by crosstobear

It's even a big tendency among clinicians and clinical staff, unfortunately. Nurses especially tend to throw around personality disorder and other damning labels like candy. And even among clinicians in a team setting, there's so much boxing people into categories and dismissing them. Actually, a coworker who is also a clinician (who I had a crush on) rudely stared at the vertical scar I have on my wrist from when I was younger and now always brings up borderline personality disorder in convos with me, with a wink and a nudge. Shameful. Some will look at a Dx and treat a client accordingly, from a distance. Often the ones that work one-to-one with the client get to see the person for what he or she really is, but decisions are made in teams and everyone is consulted, and that's where you get a majority of the ******** from.

If anything, some narcissism is absolutely necessary.


Love your third signature quote.

I've got scars literally all over my body, yeah people stare when they are exposed(which is all the time I have scarring on my face) but eh ****s not given and if someone is going to make a judgment call based on what's only skin deep then I won't be bothered giving whoever it is the time of day.

It has always seemed ridiculous and downright stupid to me that people who have struggled with self harm for various reasons get slapped with the BPD label regardless of their actual symptoms underneath the self harm.

Most of my scars aren't self-inflicted. The ones that are, they're the result of severe psychotic episodes. Though that hasn't stopped the label of BPD being thrown at me despite me meeting zero of the criteria, self harm as a result of severe psychotic states doesn't count.

[crosstobear]

Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend

I couldn't agree more. Fact of the matter is that people fear that which they neither do not nor cannot understand. Few people are open minded enough to be able to appreciate the works of Machiavelli or other like-minded philosophers because their writings shatter the masses' illusion of reality.

I like the other philosophers you listed as well. While I didn't get too much into Schopenhauer or Hobbes, I liked Camus and he's one of my favorites as well along with Machiavelli, Rand, and Epicurus.

BTW, I like the Machiavelli quote you posted as your signature. I think I'm going to copy you

It's a great quote. Not just in regards to political power. It's unfortunate that judgements are made based on appearance. Really unfortunate. A friend of mine commented that he had one of the deepest and most enlightening conversations with a hobo he met at the train station. Most would have written that guy off. I know I probably would have, or maybe would have jumped to "how much money do I have in my wallet, and can I spare a dollar or two to this guy to make myself feel better about myself?" I talk to my recovery clients all the time about appearances and the labels people throw at addicts based on appearances, sex, status, etc. No one would have called Phillip Seymour Hoffman "scum of the earth" but that's the vitriol that your average inner city junkie gets.

I feel this is very related to capitalism (although there's another side of the coin and another explanation related to traditionalism and tribalism). In terms of capitalism (based on friends I've had from Europe, Iran, Turkey, etc.) we here in the United States work so much and are so imprisoned by financial concerns that it leaves our brains with little cognitive resources to truly analyze a situation or person in depth via contact. We are left with minimal mental energy and by default rely on stereotypes and cognitive shortcuts. In such circumstances it's only natural to separate people into categories and assign that which made sense about one or two examples of such category to all new members of that category. It just forces people to drop abstract thought and adopt speedy concrete thinking patterns. Leaves room for the person to mitigate stress and devote energy to work. Then arguments are made for traditionalism and tribalism (fearing that which one does not know or hasn't seen; labeling and dehumanizing that which is not part of one's small clique or social unit) also account for some of this phenomenon.

I wear both business clothing and casual clothing. My casual clothing is usually skinny-jeans, maybe a flat or striped shirt, more than likely a plaid flannel. On occasion it's a death metal band shirt. But this is for casual circumstances, this hipster metalhead look. It doesn't stop people from assuming I'm stuck in adolescence at those times. But the same people react differently when I wear ironed, tight-fitting button downs and dress pants. It's almost as if they respect your opinion or word more based on how you present yourself.

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I've got scars literally all over my body, yeah people stare when they are exposed(which is all the time I have scarring on my face) but eh ****s not given and if someone is going to make a judgment call based on what's only skin deep then I won't be bothered giving whoever it is the time of day.

It has always seemed ridiculous and downright stupid to me that people who have struggled with self harm for various reasons get slapped with the BPD label regardless of their actual symptoms underneath the self harm.

Most of my scars aren't self-inflicted. The ones that are, they're the result of severe psychotic episodes. Though that hasn't stopped the label of BPD being thrown at me despite me meeting zero of the criteria, self harm as a result of severe psychotic states doesn't count.

I have two vertical scars on my left wrist. From the scars you can tell there were stitches, and you can tell they were very deep. I won't get into anything that may trigger someone, but they were the result of a deliberate plan involving multiple methods to end my life, and I was as a result clinically dead for a couple of minutes, and through some way resuscitated (not because of the cuts, but because of the other methods I used. They wreaked havoc on my organs). I had to be taken off lithium and all that stuff I was on, and the effects of my overdose and sudden withdrawal made me manic. A doctor came and saw me for two minutes and assumed my energetic mood was due to "getting the attention and validation I needed" and told me he thinks I'm borderline. Then I asked for a couple minutes so he can explain this to me and he gave me a look of wary disgust and walked out. People cut for different reasons. With borderlines it's more to focus on the pain and bring some sense of peace and control. Sometimes it's to put into action words they cannot express regarding others, or to show others their pain. And even these "borderline" reasons are valid for other people who engaged in cutting. My reason to cut was not for those reasons, hence they were vertical and not horizontal or diagonal. But that doesn't stop a busy psychiatrist who sees you as a number for five minutes to slap you with a label that can change your life...

Today I often wear short sleeves and don't care. Most people can't see the scar unless they really focus. I've asked people if they want me to take a picture and send it to them, since they are so interested. That usually embarasses them and they stop. I don't really care for people seeing my scars, it's the arrogance of assuming you know about the person's character based on it that bothers me. But I don't put it past humans.

I just have to say: I enjoy talking to you Crosstobear. You are one of the most intelligent and free-thinking people that I've had the pleasure to speak to in a long time. What you have said regarding judgements and stereotypes has really invoked a lot of thought in me.

What you said regarding regulating our limited mental energy makes a lot of sense. When you said that, you made me realize how much more I could be growing and improving if I wasn't so laser focused on building my home business right now and turning over a solid income. Ahh well, at least I'm still relatively young and I have a solid shot at making a solid amount of money with less energy and time spent, therefore, I will have a lot of time in the future to focus more on further improving my knowledge

Not to be overly flattering, but Atypical and Underground have been two other members of the NPD forum that have truly been a pleasure to observe

[crosstobear]

Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend

I just have to say: I enjoy talking to you Crosstobear. You are one of the most intelligent and free-thinking people that I've had the pleasure to speak to in a long time. What you have said regarding judgements and stereotypes has really invoked a lot of thought in me.

What you said regarding regulating our limited mental energy makes a lot of sense. When you said that, you made me realize how much more I could be growing and improving if I wasn't so laser focused on building my home business right now and turning over a solid income. Ahh well, at least I'm still relatively young and I have a solid shot at making a solid amount of money with less energy and time spent, therefore, I will have a lot of time in the future to focus more on further improving my knowledge

Not to be overly flattering, but Atypical and Underground have been two other members of the NPD forum that have truly been a pleasure to observe

Thanks for the compliment, I'm glad my post helped you make sense of things. Its just my opinion, however, and I'm about average in terms of intelligence and chock full of my own biases.

Originally Posted by crosstobear

Thanks for the compliment, I'm glad my post helped you make sense of things. Its just my opinion, however, and I'm about average in terms of intelligence and chock full of my own biases.

From what I have observed thus far, I would say that you're far above average intelligence for the simple fact that you're capable of critical thinking and formulating new ideas.

The way I see it is that reading a bunch of books and retaining their information alone doesn't make somebody intelligent. What makes somebody truly intelligent is having the ability to think outside the box, having the ability to always question what one knows, and having the desire to want to grow and improve.

Anybody who relies solely on books and formal education to become more intelligent without having the traits that I listed above is destined to be doomed to becoming little more than another sheep in society and to not know what to do when faced with a real world situation that requires them to think on their feet.

What I find the most intriguing is the simple fact that society paints narcissists to be these closed-minded people who are full of themselves and are incapable of being self aware, yet some of the most though-provoking and interesting posts that I have seen on PC thus far have come from the NPD forum.

Anyways, I'm rambling at this point haha. I really need to get off and do some work but I'll be back later

[crosstobear]

Originally Posted by DarknessIsMyFriend

From what I have observed thus far, I would say that you're far above average intelligence for the simple fact that you're capable of critical thinking and formulating new ideas.

The way I see it is that reading a bunch of books and retaining their information alone doesn't make somebody intelligent. What makes somebody truly intelligent is having the ability to think outside the box, having the ability to always question what one knows, and having the desire to want to grow and improve.

Anybody who relies solely on books and formal education to become more intelligent without having the traits that I listed above is destined to be doomed to becoming little more than another sheep in society and to not know what to do when faced with a real world situation that requires them to think on their feet.

What I find the most intriguing is the simple fact that society paints narcissists to be these closed-minded people who are full of themselves and are incapable of being self aware, yet some of the most though-provoking and interesting posts that I have seen on PC thus far have come from the NPD forum.

Anyways, I'm rambling at this point haha. I really need to get off and do some work but I'll be back later

I'm not a full-criteria narcissist or a borderline. I have traits of both, though. I agree, there are some smart folks here. I also like the politics forum. In my experience when they say narcissists are close-minded they tend to refer to the tendency for many Cluster B personalities to control their immediate surroundings to mirror their own reality.

So for instance, say I am politically a leftist. I will thus actively avoid all conservatives, capitalists and religious people, and try to change the minds of my more agnostic friends to fall in line with my views. I will turn them against their friends who may have opposing views to mine. Through confirmation bias I will end up solidifying my philosophy with books that agree with me. You won't find me reading Friedman or Hayek, for instance. My Kindle will be full of Marx and other leftist ideologues. If I meet someone and hang out, I will drop them from my life the moment they let even the slightest hint that they don't believe in the redistribution of wealth. If anyone questions my ideas, I will first dismiss them as idiots, but if they press hard, I'll get personal with them. Others exist to validate my world, my thoughts, and my way of living. I want you to reflect me, to agree with me, and to make me feel right and smart. If the world invalidates my beliefs, the world is wrong.

I won't be able to agree to disagree, but still appreciate the parts of the person that aren't at odds with my political leaning. I must eject them from my life, because their very existence threatens my understanding of the world and myself.

Funny thing is I actually know quite a few people like that. I would say it's a narcissistic trait but also a trait of other personalities. But not all narcissists are alike, and it's also a matter of degree. One may show his or her narcissism in intellectual matters, another in sexual matters.

The idea behind the above is to maintain a sort of homeostasis where the individual's personality and worldview remain static, because that validates their own existential experience as well as provides them shelter in a psychological comfort zone. So in the above case, leftism hypothetically validates my experience because I may have had problems with money and have grown up poor and thus felt a disdain for those who benefit in a capitalistic society. I knew someone who was like this with racial matters. When one engages in this kind of social fortress-building it's almost always personal and existential. The ideology or faith they ascribe to validates their own personal experience from birth to the present.

What all these things like confirmation bias and the process I discussed above do is create more or less a safe haven for a person via a network of enablers, sycophants, and people who think and feel the same way. Thus there is no opportunity to be challenged and develop humility, curiosity, or come to admit one's faults. There's also no incentive to change, grow, or learn anything. Mental maturation remains confined, and the person finds it difficult to integrate feedback from others and from the world around them into his or her worldview. As we grow we integrate lessons learned from new experiences and from new associations, and this helps us grow, mature, and gain wisdom. We often disagree with friends and colleagues about, say, politics, but enjoy them for their unique personalities, their upsides, and maybe the things that we do both agree on, and this helps us grow social intelligence and empathy. The person who engages in what I've described before is in fact closing themselves off from this process. They may be able to tell you everything you need to know about Marxism and put it in a perfectly eloquent and vibrant package, but they wouldn't be able to offer anything other than that which validates themselves.

What you say makes so much sense. In fact, for most of my life, I fit the criteria of one who would attempt to control my surroundings to mirror my own reality.

Since I'm feeling open and philosophical today, I'll go ahead and share a brief relevant history about myself. My mother was an abusive narcissist who desired to do nothing more than control me. She would use the mental health system to make me easy to control in the form of lying to the mental health professionals so she can get a bunch of medicine shoved down my throat and she had me institutionalized when I acted out in even the slightest matter. She also used fear to control me by constantly threatening to have me locked up or to have a drunk uncle with anger issues come over to beat me. Heck, she even denied me the chance to play outside and make friends like normal kids and she forced me into an abusive foster home when I had the nerve to defy her one time that was in a black gang dominated neighborhood which made survival hard for me as a white socially awkward young boy.

Without getting further into any sob stories, I was forced to learn most of what I know about life on my own because I had nobody to guide me. I was conditioned by my experiences to not rely on love or count on anybody ever caring about me so I became cold and calculating and became extremely skilled at manipulation at a young age. Because of how I was forced to learn and adapt, it became a source of pride for me and I became extremely egotistical and combative towards any who dared try to change me.

I've been going through what I would call an "enlightenment age" where I've been learning so much more about myself. I've been constantly craving more knowledge and I've been wanting to grow and improve to the best of my abilities despite any defects that I supposedly have.

This is also why I've been starting to suspect that I'm actually a covert narcissist. I have a massive ego, I'm completely self centered, I see myself as being better than most people, I lack empathy for all but 5 people in the world, I don't seem to feel genuine guilt, I'm obsessed with wealth generation and making my over the top fantasies a reality, I constantly hide behind a mask and allow people to only learn what I want them to learn about me or outright lie when it suits me, and I'm very grandiose. In fact, according to Narcissist Inventory test on PC, I got a 34 of 40 and I meet 6 of the 9 criteria to be diagnosed with NPD.

Still though, I'm so self aware that it's actually scary. I think I'm this self aware because of how I was forced to learn and adapt completely on my own at such a young age which in turn gave me an extremely intuitive and introspective mind.

Anyways, enough with my ranting. I was supposed to get off, but It's clear that I still have poor impulse control because I had to log in and check for replies on this thread haha