[here today]

Originally Posted by hazn

When a person reaches that point, they honestly couldn't give a crap about what the narcissist thinks. If you know enough about narcissism and see enough of the red flags... you'll quietly disappear without saying a word. The narcissist won't care, and neither will you.

I think most healthy people simply won't entertain a relationship with someone who displays high levels of narcissism. At least not in any meaningful way. I mean, why would they? ...is it wrong for me to say that? I don't know ...but it sounds like it would make for an interesting discussion.

I was co-dependent for many years. Since I’ve gotten healthier two friendships haven’t survived and another may not make it either. In two of the friendships the other women seem somewhat narcissistic and “my needs first”, in the other the woman was somewhat dependent but also “my needs first”. I was sad these relationships didn’t make it and I expect, in their way, my ex-friends were, too. I felt guilty for awhile, but that has passed as I’ve continued to get healthier.

None of these relationships were with a “malignant” narcissist. I met a man whom I think may be one several years ago when I was going to volunteer for a non-profit organization he was president of. Within a few days it all began to seem very shady and I left. I needed to leave and I did. Maybe circumstances will force him into treatment, maybe not. Without treatment I would not want to be associated with him.

There have always been dangerous and self-absorbed people in the world, whatever you call them. And people who are not like that frequently have a hard time believing or recognizing it. I had a bad experience about 15 years ago with someone I was depending on and as it became clear that I could NOT count on her it got very frightening. So I know better how to feel and trust my gut now. I don’t know if she had BPD or NPD or anything and don’t really care, I just came to know that she was dangerous and there was NOTHING I could do about it. Very scary, did not end well.

So learning how to trust my gut was the main thing for me, with each individual. To the extent that the labels keep you in your head, that may lead you astray, making assumptions based on the label description that may not be true for the individual. At least that’s the way it seems to me.

[here today]

Originally Posted by MissFiona

I think I always used to veer towards NPD males because I had an NPD Mother but a BPD Father. So in adult life in relationships I was wanting to magically transform the NPD 'father figure' into a BPD 'mummy figure' to find the missing elements from my childhood. So once I worked out that I was dating my own Mother and getting confused why they weren't like my BPD Father I would set about tearing them down into pieces until they put themselves back together the way I wanted them to be. If they failed it was like my parents failing me all over again on a subconscious level. It's so easy to blame others and NPD's seem to cop the worst rap but you can learn heaps about yourself once you identify who the NPD or any PD is being used as a substitute for.

Wow, yeah. I come to this forum with my residual co-dependency to protect Mom and Dad (and me) from the unreasonable attacks of, or rejection by, people who don’t really know the whole persons and become the nurse coming at me from above, holding me down on the operating table when I was three, who Mom and Dad did not protect me from!! Sorry, folks.

[here today]

Originally Posted by MissFiona

I've been diagnosed with NPD BPD Schizophrenia Stress Adjustment Disorder depending on what mood I was in at the time of the diagnosis LOL

So I thought this is crazy, why am I not getting the same diagnosis each time. I'm not leaving my mental health in the hands of these people who can't make their minds up I will sort myself out and I went cold turkey for a year not speaking to anyone but re-parenting myself into the type of person I wish I had been in the first place.

The first few months I spent crawling on the floor, rocking back and forth on my heels, sleeping days on end and painting the inside of my house from top to bottom, in agony and ecstasy at the withdrawal of all external supply.

It’s been my experience, too, that even for those of us who are willing to try to look at ourselves and deal with stuff, the profession as a whole seems not to know how to help us very well. They say things like “some people can’t be helped.” Why not? It seems, logically, like they need to put more time and attention into finding ways to really help, in as short a time as possible. If they have better methods to help, really help, then people might be better able to look at their own shortcomings and see, yes, a better way is possible, doable.

I'm glad I lucked into finding my current therapist because I don't think I could have dealt with stuff all on my own.

[hazn]

Originally Posted by here today

So learning how to trust my gut was the main thing for me, with each individual. To the extent that the labels keep you in your head, that may lead you astray, making assumptions based on the label description that may not be true for the individual. At least that’s the way it seems to me.

I think this is very important, for many reasons. The truth is, it's not very difficult to identify someone with narcissistic traits. Yes, they may be expert manipulators, but they aren't THAT good. There are always inconsistencies, and you should be able to pick up on that. The problem is that the type of people who are attracted to narcissists have low self-esteem, they may be lonely, perhaps they have their own issues... and so they may see these red flags but ignore them, or try to explain them away. And of course, this is particularly dangerous for a codependent.

[Atypical_Disaster]

So learning how to trust my gut was the main thing for me, with each individual. To the extent that the labels keep you in your head, that may lead you astray, making assumptions based on the label description that may not be true for the individual. At least that’s the way it seems to me.

Frankly, I see labels as a threat in a weird kind of way. It's not that I fear them, but like you aptly said they can lead people astray. I throw up smoke and mirrors for a reason, if people get too close to the truth I will deliberately lie shamelessly. I do not want just anyone knowing what labels actually apply to me. But I figure I'm pretty safe on an anonymous forum, though I know that people who read my posts carefully are likely confused because I still throw up smoke and mirrors to an extent even here. It is not out of malice, it is just something that I've always done...

One thing I hate though, is the label of evil. I do not like being called evil. Call me a Narcissist, hell even call me a Psychopath if you(general "you", not anyone specific) think that's more fitting. But do not call me evil, I do not take kindly to that.

A label only says so much, you are correct to look at the individual and not just the label. For example you can use the term "Narcissist" for both Underground and myself, but he and I are obviously two very different people though we do share a few personality traits.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by hazn

I think this is very important, for many reasons. The truth is, it's not very difficult to identify someone with narcissistic traits. Yes, they may be expert manipulators, but they aren't THAT good. There are always inconsistencies, and you should be able to pick up on that. The problem is that the type of people who are attracted to narcissists have low self-esteem, they may be lonely, perhaps they have their own issues... and so they may see these red flags but ignore them, or try to explain them away. And of course, this is particularly dangerous for a codependent.

I think it depends on the person as far as how easy it is to identify narcissistic traits. Offline, people often know something is different about me but they often don't pick up on my high levels of narcissism until further down the road. Most people don't seem to spot my "inconsistencies", I'm talking about offline interactions here. Online, in writing, it is easier to see it.

The explaining away and ignoring of red flags is something I've seen particularly in romantic partners I've had, and also some former friends... They see the signs before long, but they repeatedly ignore them. I drop hints on purpose, sometimes I even tell them straight up that I am not... Normal, for warrant of a better term. But it's like for whatever reason, they do not believe me when I actually take the time to say something honest.

A lot of the time these people with low self esteem that are attracted to me, seem to not be interested in ME at all... It is the IDEA of me they are obsessed with. So, I merely play along with their ideas... and then they call me evil later. What nonsense.

[hazn]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I think it depends on the person as far as how easy it is to identify narcissistic traits. Offline, people often know something is different about me but they often don't pick up on my high levels of narcissism until further down the road. Most people don't seem to spot my "inconsistencies", I'm talking about offline interactions here. Online, in writing, it is easier to see it.

The explaining away and ignoring of red flags is something I've seen particularly in romantic partners I've had, and also some former friends... They see the signs before long, but they repeatedly ignore them. I drop hints on purpose, sometimes I even tell them straight up that I am not... Normal, for warrant of a better term. But it's like for whatever reason, they do not believe me when I actually take the time to say something honest.

A lot of the time these people with low self esteem that are attracted to me, seem to not be interested in ME at all... It is the IDEA of me they are obsessed with. So, I merely play along with their ideas... and then they call me evil later. What nonsense.

When you say you drop hints, what do you mean exactly? Could you give a few examples of such hints? Perhaps both subtle, and not-so-subtle. In your mind, does the fact that you've dropped these hints and that they have been ignored help you justify your behavior? In your mind, do you secretly think... "well... if someone is that stupid then they deserve to be hurt."?

What do you mean when you say they're obsessed with the idea of you, rather than interested in you?

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by hazn

When you say you drop hints, what do you mean exactly? Could you give a few examples of such hints? Perhaps both subtle, and not-so-subtle. In your mind, does the fact that you've dropped these hints and that they have been ignored help you justify your behavior? In your mind, do you secretly think... "well... if someone is that stupid then they deserve to be hurt."?

What do you mean when you say they're obsessed with the idea of you, rather than you?

I mean I give hints about my true nature, little turns of phrases, I love playing with words. Incidentally, do you think Narcissists are capable of love?

Sometimes I am not so subtle, at times I will say upfront that I am not an empathetic ray of white light. But it seems the more overt I am, the less people believe it. I find this humorous.

In my mind yes I do think exactly that, if you are too stupid to see the truth then don't complain when my nature inevitably reveals itself. Also, I don't see it as me lying if someone just refuses to believe the truth when I tell them. I see it as a game that they signed up for by not believing me. "Secretly" though? Why would I keep such a thing a secret? I tell the truth all the time.

People, likely because of my mask, seem to have this idea that I am somehow capable of loving them, caring for them, empathizing with them. But I do warn people, I tell people often that love is a filthy four letter word... And they assume I say that only because of my delightfully brutal childhood. People think they can change me.

[hazn]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I mean I give hints about my true nature, little turns of phrases, I love playing with words. Incidentally, do you think Narcissists are capable of love?

Sometimes I am not so subtle, at times I will say upfront that I am not an empathetic ray of white light. But it seems the more overt I am, the less people believe it. I find this humorous.

In my mind yes I do think exactly that, if you are too stupid to see the truth then don't complain when my nature inevitably reveals itself. Also, I don't see it as me lying if someone just refuses to believe the truth when I tell them. I see it as a game that they signed up for by not believing me. "Secretly" though? Why would I keep such a thing a secret? I tell the truth all the time.

People, likely because of my mask, seem to have this idea that I am somehow capable of loving them, caring for them, empathizing with them. But I do warn people, I tell people often that love is a filthy four letter word... And they assume I say that only because of my delightfully brutal childhood. People think they can change me.

Hmm... don't you ever feel like, perhaps because of the way you are, you've missed out on many relationships where people actually genuinely cared about you? What you have to realise is, "normal" people try to see the good in others and empathise with a person. If someone were to turn around and tell me "hey... I'm not capable of love", and I know about their difficult childhood, my first thought wouldn't be "OK, she's a narcissist". I'd think, OK this is someone who is damaged. I could empathise with such a person, and understand where they're coming from. So, I feel like you're taking people's good nature for granted, and using that against them. Until recently, I didn't know there were people who weren't capable of love, or empathy. Most people think they're dealing with a "normal" person, and know nothing about narcissism.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Hmm... don't you ever feel like, perhaps because of the way you are, you've missed out on many relationships where people actually genuinely cared about you?

No.

What you have to realise is, "normal" people try to see the good in others and empathise with a person. If someone were to turn around and tell me "hey... I'm not capable of love", and I know about their difficult childhood, my first thought wouldn't be "OK, she's a narcissist". I'd think, OK this is someone who is damaged. I could empathise with such a person, and understand where they're coming from.

For most people that is probably true. I am simply not most people.

So, I feel like you're taking people's good nature for granted, and using that against them. Until recently, I didn't know there were people who weren't capable of love, or empathy. Most people think they're dealing with a "normal" person, and know nothing about narcissism.

It is not my fault or my problem that people prefer to view the world through their own frame of reference instead of looking beyond themselves and seeing that not everyone is like them. I am simply playing my part.

What is "normal"? To me, feeling things like love and empathy is very strange to me. Normal is such a relative term, wouldn't you agree?

[hazn]

Fair enough, can't really argue with that.

[here today]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Frankly, I see labels as a threat in a weird kind of way. . .

Yes, I can see how that would be. We had a conversation about that a while back. I’m OK with what I understand your true nature to be. I still get sucked in sometimes. I feel kind of like a fool afterward, but this is online and I’m learning.

I still care about you, even if you are not capable of caring about me back. That’s just me, part of me that I value. And I know now, from my previous experiences in real life, how to take care of myself, at least somewhat. Life is full of risks.

I spent a lot time obsessing and reading about what “evil” might be a while back and came to the conclusion that it was the withdrawal or withholding of empathy by someone who was capable of it. With what I understand now about myself, when I get into a state that others may experience as evil, I lose the capacity for love and empathy that might characterize me another time. So to others I may seem evil, hurtful, harmful, abandoning, etc. and that may have been very scary for them but really I was just in a state where empathy and love weren’t present, couldn’t be made to be present. So, then, I wasn’t evil either, because it was not the deliberate withdrawal or withholding of empathy or love, it was just that I was so badly triggered that my survival functions took over and dissociated from my social ones.

How do you think life might look like for you and similar "atypical" people if you could be accepted, and valued by society, for who and what you are?

[hazn]

Originally Posted by here today

How do you think life might look like for you and similar "atypical" people if you could be accepted, and valued by society, for who and what you are?

Again, you're making the mistake of believing narcissists are like other "normal" people. They're not. Their brains don't function the same way mine and yours does. In fact, they hope people will adopt your kind of thinking, because that's the only way someone would entertain the idea of a relationship with someone who is a narcissist. This idea that you can fix a narcissist by surrounding them in love is BS, in my personal opinion.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Yes, I can see how that would be. We had a conversation about that a while back. I’m OK with what I understand your true nature to be. I still get sucked in sometimes. I feel kind of like a fool afterward, but this is online and I’m learning.

I think the getting sucked in is inevitable, don't be too hard on yourself. What do you understand my true nature to be?

I still care about you, even if you are not capable of caring about me back. That’s just me, part of me that I value. And I know now, from my previous experiences in real life, how to take care of myself, at least somewhat. Life is full of risks.

You are an interesting person. To elaborate, it is not common for someone to look at me and actually accept what they see. Nothing risked, nothing gained; that is my motto.

Good and evil... I see that whole matter as basically irrelevant and I do not like being dragged into such discussions. The way I see it, one person's evil is another person's good and vice versa. Good and evil are highly relative terms to me.

What would trigger you into a state that would look "evil" to people on the outside looking in?

How do you think life might look like for you and similar "atypical" people if you could be accepted, and valued by society, for who and what you are?

I would be far less irritated, that is for sure. Also, I dislike talking about it but wearing a mask almost all the time does tire me out after awhile... which leads to more irritation on my part. I think that being your authentic self is a basic human right, a right that I have been denied of for my entire life by society at large.

Society will always view "people like me" as evil, I do not see how that could ever realistically change. I do not like it, while I have done things that could certainly be interpreted as "evil", I have done just as many things that can be interpreted as "good". Using labels to paint me black just by virtue of my existence is not something I take kindly to.

[here today]

I don't want to ask a question to which the answer seems idiotically obviously "yes" but have you heard of James Fallon?

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

I don't want to ask a question to which the answer seems idiotically obviously "yes" but have you heard of James Fallon?

I've heard the name thrown around before, isn't he the guy who found that his brain scan matched those of primary psychopaths?

[leomama]

How were you able to live like that? Meaning support yourself during that time?

[here today]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

I've heard the name thrown around before, isn't he the guy who found that his brain scan matched those of primary psychopaths?

Yes. I looked him up again just a while ago. He's a neuroscientist. Lives a regular life.

[Atypical_Disaster]

Originally Posted by here today

Yes. I looked him up again just a while ago. He's a neuroscientist. Lives a regular life.

I'll have to look it up as I don't think I ever read the story, just heard about it in passing... Why did you bring him up?

[hazn]

Originally Posted by here today

Yes. I looked him up again just a while ago. He's a neuroscientist. Lives a regular life.

What's the point you're trying to make? :S

[MissFiona]

Originally Posted by leomama

How were you able to live like that? Meaning support yourself during that time?

I arranged for my son to live with his Dad for a year, I sold loads of stuff on Ebay and to auction houses beforehand, to fund my year. There wasn't much left in the house or my wardrobe! Nearly everything I sold was what I would call 'the spoils of war' from ex partners. I cringe even thinking about the things I thought were important to me in the past, like jewellery and the best of everything. It all had to go. My face is burning just typing about it that I was so fake! After I'd finished painting the house I started doing my own paintings and stuff. I'd never even picked up anything other than a makeup brush prior to that LOL

The reason I arranged for my son to stay with his father for a year was because I had isolated my son from his Father and they were virtually strangers.

[MissFiona]

Originally Posted by here today

Wow, yeah. I come to this forum with my residual co-dependency to protect Mom and Dad (and me) from the unreasonable attacks of, or rejection by, people who don’t really know the whole persons and become the nurse coming at me from above, holding me down on the operating table when I was three, who Mom and Dad did not protect me from!! Sorry, folks.

I found once I could sort out the characters I was portraying (which was actually protecting them as in keeping them 'alive' through my portrayals of them and maybe mixing them all up now and again to keep life interesting, when I realised I was becoming the head surgeon operating on others AND myself I knew I was holding my true self down and choosing partners, people, things who would be my 'theatre' nurses or anaesthetists, and not only was I doing it to other people, I was doing it to myself. I was allowing it to happen and allowing them to help. Eek!

[here today]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

. . . What do you understand my true nature to be?

I understand that your brain scans may match Dr. James Fallon's more than most people's do. But gee golly whiz there may be more of that in me than most people, too.

[hazn]

Originally Posted by here today

I understand that your brain scans may match Dr. James Fallon's more than most people's do. But gee golly whiz there may be more of that in me than most people, too.

I'm still confused :s what's the point you're trying to make?

[MissFiona]

Originally Posted by Atypical_Disaster

Narcissists have a lot to lose, I speak from experience. I know it can look like I'm just fine and dandy all the time, but it is not so. I have plenty to lose, and by "plenty" I mean everything.

I once had an NPD partner say something very similar to me once in real life. It was THE worst experience I ever had with anyone after he told me 'cos by the next day he had morphed into the antichrist due to his revelation. Which caused me to turn into a bigger AC than him! This was the turning point for me where I started to look for answers.

I think the anonymity of a forum makes it easier for me to reveal thoughts I have definately learnt not to reveal to anyone in real life situations!