[perpetuallysad]

The Depressing News About Antidepressants

http://www.newsweek.com/id/232781

Its 4 pages long, but very interesting. I don't know what to think about it, but it upsets me very much. Ug, I don't know. Someone read it so I can talk about this. Please?

[sanityseeker]

okay... I will read it now and get back to you.

[sanityseeker]

Sorry for the delay.... phone rang and blah blah blah... LOL.

I should have asked you earlier what about it upsets you in particular before I offer any comments but since I didn't I will offer something to get the discussion started.

I do find the debate regarding the use of psych meds to treat depression interesting and even disturbing to some degree because I never know what is best for me and it would be so nice if someone could offer me certainty. I mean I take meds to normalize my thyroid and it is never a question of whether it works or not. It does what it is suppose to do for me and for anyone else with the same condition.

Treating depression with medication is a whole different ball game and the fact that there is not a cure or stabilizer that works with the same kind of efficiency is really disappointing. This article brings that reality home again. The fact that it is a continuous debate makes it real. The fact that depression can range from mild to severe also means that treatment gets increasingly complicated as you move along the range. The article did make the point. Medication is more effective for those suffering severe depression. The major concern I read is that medication may not make much of a difference for those suffering milder forms of depression. For lots of reasons also mentioned in the article doctors may be quick to prescribe meds because other forms of treatment are less readily available.

At the end of the day the reality remains from my perspective that recovery.... that is to say functioning to capacity with the effects of depression always on my heals.... requires a wholistic approach. From what I have experienced, observed and researched over the years those with or without medication, depending on the severity of one's symptoms attention to lifestyle in terms of diet, exercise, work and relationships are just as important. While lifestyle changes need to be lifelong, med treatment may be short term. They like psychotherapy may be useful for short periods of time to give someone the boost to make the lifestyle changes that can help one cope and help one prevent the downward spiralling.

It is always a case of balance and it is distinct from person to person. Just my quick thoughts.

[Indie'sOK]

I read that, and it angers me very much. I am a fan of Psychcentral.com on Facebook, and I saw this article posted to my profile. The woman who wrote the article was saying how since we do not know exactly how antidepressants work, we can't go making claims that they don't work. All I know is that they work for me and many people, so I will keep taking my meds thank you very much

[perpetuallysad]

sanityseeker, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about this with me.
I guess what upset me the most is that I'm bipolar and I suffer very severe depression during my down times. In fact, the depressions last way, way longer than any up periods for me. This is something that I have struggled with since early childhood (I'm 34 now and my symptoms started--that I remember--around 5 or 6--I know this from reading my journals from that time in my life). I digress. I started treatment (a combo of therapy and medications) in early 2005. I have taken about 2 dozen different medicines, probably 10-12 of those antidepressants, and I have "treatment" resistant depression (according to my pdoc). I am completely aware that most of the meds I take do NOTHING to change my problems, but I would honestly like to believe help is possible. In a way, I guess I've always suspected that I am not responding to the meds the way my pdoc claims I should be, but I continue to take his advice and try another and another and another...looking for that "just right" combo. I have a hard time remaining compliant with my meds specifically because the negative side effects far-far outweigh the positive effects for me. But I sincerely try. Because I don't want to live on a rollercoaster. I want to be NORMAL (or whatever is close to that). I want to have a job and friends and be able to do things like leave my house without having to go through the crap I go through to make it possible for me mentally. Everyone is constantly repeating "are you on your meds?", "did you take your meds?", "what meds are you on?". I want to be better, but its like the article takes away this slim hope I have that one day I'll find the right combo and I'll be able to function again. I hate feeling like I am part of an elaborate science experiment that I never get positive benefits from it.

[sanityseeker]

Indie.... I think the article actually supported your position. If they work for you then why would you stop? The outstanding question though is Why do they work. It is the question that no one seems to be able to agree upon an answer to. That question may not matter to you since you are getting results.

[slowinmi]

I asked a knowledgeable person about it yesterday and he said that the meds are the best things that we have for depression right now. It's a matter of finding out which one works for each person.

However, I did read an article that said they are developing a new med that is 10 times better than what we currently have. Supposedly it is in clinical trials.

Don't be sad! I think enough people know that these meds work.

[(JD)]

I didn't read the article, but negative information has been "out there" for many years, about antidepressants.
Did the article talk about how 6 months of psychotherapy does as much good, or more?
I know the previous info on ADs from the drug companies themselves, was that they only work for maybe a third of the people who try them, and that's one of the drugs on the market might work for one third of the people.

I think many people benefit from the more natural products of herbs, rather than the synthetic ADs. My body doesn't like anything synthetic.



Dr Seliger, of Positive Psychology, proved that a depressed person can lighten their depression by sharing good with another ... well I didn't say that very well ...
but for example, at PC when you see someone in chat or a thread say something that was good about themselves, or something positive that was in their life recently, Dr Seliger's research says if you will not only participate in congratulating them (such as in that thread, or IRL if you know them) but also go an extra mile (such as for PC, creating a Kudo thread for that person for it) that YOUR OWN depression will begin to lighten ... if you do this for even 6 weeks on a day to day basis, you can begin to feel better. There are remarkable positive results even after a year of trying to do this!

[sanityseeker]

Perpettuallysad..... you could have been writing about me with your post. I totally get what you are saying because I feel exactly the same way. The few times I have consented to meds they have not been effective and the side effects have been unbearable. Add to that a history of abusing narc drugs and all psych drugs scare me now. I so relate to the constant questions about taking meds like they are the answer to all of our issues. Then articles like this show us again that there is no one size fits all answer. The debate that goes on is crazy making.

I know for me I keep coming back to three things whenever my comfort or confidence in drug treatment gets challenged for whatever reason. Whether it is reading an article like this or observing others in similar circumstances to mine or facing the lack of funds to pay for them. I come back to examining what else I am doing that might improve my condition. It comes down to three things for me.

1. Taking care of myself through diet, exercise and sleep. The better I am able to tend to maintaining consistency in these areas the better off I am on the whole. At my worst they are really hard to tend to but nevertheless they are critical in my view to treating the depression. To maintaining a physcial sense of wellness. I am like you... bipolar but the last few years more down times than up. I have rapid mood swings which can work for and against me sometimes. I will crash following anything that raise my anxiety level. I can wake up sad or not sad for no apparent reason. I can wake up thinking I have the tiger by the tail and then one stressful situation has me crying in a corner. Everyday is an unknow and sometimes I get caught being over protective to avoid anything that will stress me out or make me anxious and inevitably struggle not to cycle down low. Then I am bored and that makes me sad and round and round it goes. Crazy making.

2. Talk therapy. The times when I see a counsellor regularly are the times I am better able to take care of myself and not cycle deeper into the pit. It allows me to challenge the negative thinking patterns and stop the obsessive thinking etc etc. Its all good to have someone to talk to who will listen.

3. Work and relationships. Being engaged and involved in accomplishing something each day no matter how small the accomplishment is. If I sit around and do nothing all day I am much worse off than if I can at least get myself up to wash dishes or make dinner. Maintaining relationships even if it is forcing myself to answer the phone or call someone up to see how they are doing. Getting my mind off of me for a while and being supportive of someone else can be a boost.

While I wait for the magic cure that I don't see being out there yet I guess for me I need to feel like I have some control over the situation depression puts me in. I have to feel like I have a role to play in my own wellness. I guess it is sort of like 'if I do my part then somehow the rest of what I need will find its way to me.' I remember an old prayer.... "God, I will do my part and trust you to do the rest." If I can get myself up every morning and declare my love for myself so that I can do the things that are good for me physcially, emotionally and spiritually then somehow things will work out and get better and better.

Hope for me is powerful medicine with or without other medicines the doc might suggest I try from time to time. I think at the end of the day for me psych meds are a short term aid at best. They may help you sleep, or calm your anxiety or do any number of things to make life more bareable when sell determination can't cut it but from what I have experienced and observed they don't cure anything over the long term. Lifestyle changes and learned response skills are what seem to make the difference over the long term.

I think depression can be managed but I don't really think it can be cured. Maybe it will relapse for a phase but I am 55 and have been dealing with this most of my life. I don't see that changing but I do hold out hope that I can continue to learn to manage its effects better than I have in years gone by. Maybe that will involve drugs to get through the worst times but I think I have lost hope that a drug will level me permanently.

[sanityseeker]

opps... i took so long babbling that a couple of others have chimmed in. I hope my response isn't too contrary because I know it is a sensitive subject for people. I mean no offense to anyone. I honestly just have my own concerns about meds and the article spoke to most of them so I have no problem with the information and postitions taken by those sited in the article.

Wishing Only Wellness.

[Indie'sOK]

Originally Posted by sanityseeker

Indie.... I think the article actually supported your position. If they work for you then why would you stop? The outstanding question though is Why do they work. It is the question that no one seems to be able to agree upon an answer to. That question may not matter to you since you are getting results.

This is the article I was referring to...http://blogs.psychcentral.com/depres...sive-tic-tacs/. They sounded so familiar that I thought you were talking about the same article!

[sanityseeker]

Hi Indie.... I will have to get back to you on that one. Need to go make dinner now. I love your signature peice by the way. I share your passions and desires. Take care. Catch up with you again soon.

[DiminishedModulatn]

Anti-depressants were never meant to cure depression, they are suppose to be aid for therapy. Atleast thats what the majority of my professors taught me. The problem is insurance companies make more money from medications than therapy, and most people are impatient and settle for treating the symptoms,rather than focus on the problems. Of course, I'm no expert, but it sounds rational to me.

For me personally, I won't take medication for depression, I believe the physiological aspects of depression are caused by being depressed. Not that other way around. Thats just me, it works for some people and thats fine.

[skyliner]

My plain experience with myself and other loved ones has been that decreased thyroid and/or adrenal function are often contributing factors to depression and other mental-health diagnoses.

Though the few psychiatrists I have come across do not think along these lines, I've had one psychiatrist tell me she has all her patients do a full thyroid function test and a full blood workup prior to prescribing psychiatric meds.

Thing is, most of the time the appropriate thyroid/adrenal testing is not done. The doctors will test TSH, and a few other items, most of which don't tell us the TRUE state of the thyroid and adrenals. (such as t3 uptake t4 and others)

So for the record, Free t3 and Free t4 and TSH and thyroid antibodies will give you a more complete picture of your thyroid function. T3 and t4 are not the same as FREE t3 and FREE t4.

As for adrenal function, a morning blood cortisol level below 15 is a red flag. A more accurate determination of adrenal functioning can be made via a 4x a day salivary cortisol test.

Anemia is another thing to be looked into when depression is present. As well as b12 levels and vitamin d levels.

Based on results, an appropriate course of action can be planned.

Been there, done that. My thyroid meds and adrenal meds work better than any psychiatric drug I have ever tried. And this time around, thankfully, no side effects.

And I won't say the endocrinology profession doesn't have its faults. I've had to work hard at getting appropriate treatment, after being denied it for long enough. Thank God for internet, where I was able to do hours of research so that I had the knowledge with which to advocate for my health care.

For those who are on AD's and other medications to help manage their symptoms, if it is helping you cope good for you; do whatever it takes to help you cope with life. I am not dismissing the judicious use of psychiatric medications. You may still benefit from a good thyroid/adrenal workup so that just in case those are not working at optimal level you can address that as well.

[NuckingFutz]

Well pour honey on me and tie me to an ant hill! I think I will keep poping my psychotropic breath mints thank you very much.

[sanityseeker]

Originally Posted by skyliner

So for the record, Free t3 and Free t4 and TSH and thyroid antibodies will give you a more complete picture of your thyroid function. T3 and t4 are not the same as FREE t3 and FREE t4.

As for adrenal function, a morning blood cortisol level below 15 is a red flag. A more accurate determination of adrenal functioning can be made via a 4x a day salivary cortisol test.

Anemia is another thing to be looked into when depression is present. As well as b12 levels and vitamin d levels.

Based on results, an appropriate course of action can be planned.

Thanks for sharing this information skyliner. I am going to check with my doctor next week to see what kind of testing is being done to determine my thyroid functioning. As well as the adrenal functioning. Based on your info about how it is determined I know that I have never had that checked before.

I have had my b12 and vitD levels checked but I have heard that the recommended amounts are controvercial. And also that too much VitD can be toxic because unlike other vitamins, like VitC the excess does not run through you but stays in your system. I definately experience more difficulties with depression in the dark winter months.

thanks again. I appreciate the information.

[perpetuallysad]

Thanks for responding everyone. I appreciate that you've taken the time to read the article.

I am having a hard time because I want to respond to the post about thyroid problems causing depression but I don't think I can do it without coming off wrong.

I personally don't think its possible for me to take thyroid or adrenal medicines and correct my problems.

Oh ya, I also have no illusions that taking medicines will cure anything that's wrong with me, but I do feel that they help me. I am not capable of positively thinking myself out of my problems.

[PeculiarGroove]

Thank you for posting the article - it was very interesting. I must admit I've never trusted anti-depressants. I take prozac - and i do feel better for it but I think a lot of that is down to the Placebo effect - just knowing i've taken my pills makes me feel better.

There is also a great article in this month's 'Scientific American Mind' Magazine about depression and a theory developing about it's evolutionary origins.

It's wonderful that we are getting more to the core of what depression is and why it occurs and perhaps like any other illness treating the symptoms of depression (which technically is all anti-depressants do) will not make the illness itself go away or stop it from reccuring. Perhaps the only way to tackle it, is to stop masking the problem so we can work out what's causing it in the first place.

That being said, I'm off to take my prozac!

[lonegael]

First let me say that I have no problem with the pople who feel that AD's are not their way to deal with depression. If therapy works for you, great! I would have continued with that if I thought it was helping me at all with my depression and anxiety. It didn't, and here is a short description of the rest.
I have been on a series of antidepressants since i have been 18. With the exception of the ones that I am on now, I have never gotten better than nose-above-the-surface- of -the-water. I thought that was as good as it got. I have had side effects that would raise the hair on folk's heads, I have had disappointments, and yes, I definitely believe I have had placebo effcts, but when I started the med combination I am on now, the constant jibbering in my head stopped for the first time in my life. For the first time in my life I am not afraid all the time, and for the first time I can shrug at minor mistakes and go on with life. I NEVER expected that medications would get me this far. I didn't realize until later that Effexor also dealt with anxiety. So something is working, and I preferr to stay with it. For the first time, I feel like a funtioning, adult human being. So, yeah, NF, I'm with you. There is something else going on, at least for a lot of us BPs.
For the rest, yeah, placebo effects are very strong, but they happen with therapy also, and knowing when that ends is not always clear either. We have a huge capacity to heal ourselves given the right conditions. Still I would not hesitate to suggest medications for depression if I thought it was necessary. Huggs all, and take care of your selves!

[sanityseeker]

I think what puzzles me the most and makes me question using meds for ME is that I can have days when I feel perfectly 'normal'. The noises in my head are gone, the sadness is lifted, the energy is up, etc etc. Those days make me wonder why would I want to be taking meds on a daily basis when I can have days like these. Why can't there just be a way to take meds as needed is always the question I grapple with. On those days when I can't move no matter how hard I try to will myself to 'do the work' I beg for relief and wonder if I shouldn't be getting back on the seroquel or effexor or whatever it would take to stop the madness. I look back to when I was taking them and for me the side effects were frieghtful and I could never know for sure if the good days were because of the meds or just one of those good days I would have now and then with or without meds.

I think I sometimes read articles like this and when I am on the up swing they justify my resistance to med treatment. If I read them on a bad day they enrage me that there just isn't some quick fix I can get to stop the insanity.

I get told alot from friends and family not familiar with BP or any other mental illness or disorder that totally oppose psych meds that all my problems are related to menopause or my thyroid condition or just plain old self absorbed obsessing for that matter. I know I am through menopause and I do everything possible to ensure my thyroid levels are adequately stablized. When new information comes my way I check it out. Partly because if there is some truth to it then I want to know that and partly I need to be able to say to my so called supportive friends and family that its not 'just my female hormone'. Maybe I want them to 'give me permission' to use meds. I come here and listening to others talk about meds helping them makes me think I should try again and then when I talk to friends and family they give me those funny looks and suggest I am crazy or heading down a slippery slop. Then all my other rationales including 'I can take better care of myself and I will be okay'.

Like I have already said in my babbling about this (sorry but I am like you perpetuallysad.... confused, frustrated and looking for the right answer to fit me) I know that successful treatment usually involves a combination of things. If meds can improve the quality of our lives and help us do the other things that will improve our health then it makes total sense to use them.

I can flip flop on this subject like a fish swimming up stream to spawn. One day I am crawling my way to the doc to say 'give me the meds' the next I am cancelling the appointment and fixing myself a protein drink. crazy making.

[skyliner]

I think psych meds are a tool to be used like any other tool. For some folks, such as myself, I got all the side effects and very little if any benefits. Other folks I know get mild side effects and big benefits. There's a spectrum ; and I have respect for each person on the continuum of the spectrum.

By spectrum I mean as defined by Wiki: spectrum (plural spectra or spectrums) is a condition that is not limited to a specific set of values but can vary infinitely within a continuum.

[pachyderm]

I was thinking about psych medications early this morning, and came up with some thoughts that help me organize my thinking about them. For a long time I have felt confused on the subject, particularly since I have been given a lot of those medications and not one of them has been more than a slight help to me. Anyway, here are my thoughts:

If you get something like a bacterial infection, you can take antibiotic medications that will kill the bacteria, or keep them from growing. That kind of medication can actually lead to a cure of the disease, which is caused by the bacteria.

On the other hand, suppose you have cancer, and are in great pain. You can take some pain killers, which may greatly reduce the pain -- but that does not cure the cancer. In fact, if you treat only the pain you may be tempted to ignore the actual cause -- until it is too late.

I think psych medications are much more like the pain killer in the case of cancer than they are like antibiotics. They treat symptoms, but not the things that are causing the symptoms. Of course, some pharmaceutical companies advertise their products as though they were cures. And some people, even some so-called professionals, say that things such as depression are caused by "chemical imbalances in the brain" or are due to genetic defects of the person who has the depression. Once you decide that "chemical imbalance" (never found, by the way) is the cause, you fail to ask what causes the chemical imbalance!

I think that psych drugs can be used judiciously. For instance anti-anxiety drugs could be used to reduce anxiety that would otherwise be so overwhelming that a person had to pay attention full time to the anxiety, and could not concentrate on anything that might help them solve problems that were causing anxiety. So the drug might be used to make psychotherapy more possible -- medication in conjunction with therapy. But using them as though they were solutions themselves instead of symptom-controllers is, as I see it, deceptive and leads to ignoring actual causes. If you don't treat the causes, but only treat symptoms, you will never approach anything like a "cure" and in fact "symptom relief only" may interfere with treating the actual cause.

Well, those are my words of the day...

[KathyM]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Well, those are my words of the day...

LOL Pachyderm - WORD! I agree with you.

With bacterial infections back in the day, it was VERY important to take the appropriate antibiotic at the required time and the entire amount prescribed. If not, some of those "bugs" could survive - and grow into something worse. (i.e. amoxycillin for otitis media ear infections often recur if not fully dosed the first time).

Nowadays, I see people taking prescribed medications only until their symptoms are relieved. If that's the case, how should people on anti-depressants, etc. be treated?

How do these medications interact with other bodily functions? If contraindicated, how should these symptoms be treated? Again....how much is too much in order to feel, act, and look "well?"

Words back atcha!

[venusss]

Originally Posted by DiminishedModulatn

Anti-depressants were never meant to cure depression, they are suppose to be aid for therapy. Atleast thats what the majority of my professors taught me. The problem is insurance companies make more money from medications than therapy, and most people are impatient and settle for treating the symptoms,rather than focus on the problems. Of course, I'm no expert, but it sounds rational to me.

ADs and other medications are now handed out as if they were candy. The marketing of big pharma actually tries to convice everybody they are depressed and they need a fix... it is disgusting actually.

The article mentioned is actually positive. WILLPOWER can work miracles! Rejoice!
Seriously, I believe the placebo effect should be studied more. It has been proved one can get drunk on placebo... Perhaps we can get better on placebo too.

I believe many of the mental health problems are "in the head". Please, nobody take offense... but humans aren't designed to function in such rapid environment as we live in today. Once I read that today we proceed as much information during one day as people in 16th century did during their entire life... No wonder our brains sometimes snap. We don't know how the ADs work... maybe it's the whole process of therapy, lifestyle change, etc. that helps people to overcome.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by perpetuallysad

The Depressing News About Antidepressants
http://www.newsweek.com/id/232781
Its 4 pages long, but very interesting. I don't know what to think about it, but it upsets me very much. Ug, I don't know. Someone read it so I can talk about this. Please?

Hi, People,

I have a different, perhaps more objective, point of view as a user of anti-depressants. Among other things, I've been suffering for two or three years from unwanted, intrusive, constant, su*cidal ideation. At first, no anti-depressents helped. Then last year my T put me on Pristiq. My constant su*cidal thinking went down about 95%. I really get no talk therapy because I can't afford it (even the Pristiq is a stretch for me). Nothing in my external or internal situation has changed other than the Pristiq and the reduction in su*cidal thinking. And that ain't hay. Those bad thoughts really made me feel terrible. Placebo? If I were really devoted to "science," I'd stop the Pristiq now and see if the su*cidal thinking stayed away. For reasons of personal comfort, I'd rather not. But at least the presence, non-presence of su*cidal thinking seems to me more objective than the vagueness of "depression."

Take care.