[Ygrec23]

Yoda's sig has a quotation of which the following is part: "Before you judge my life or my character ... [w]alk in my shoes." Many of us have heard that or something similar to it before in our lives. And I'd guess that many of us have tried to utilize that standard when dealing with other people. And sometimes we feel we have indeed understood (=walked in the shoes of?) someone else, and sometimes we give up trying because we feel we can't do it.

Question: Is there any way of KNOWING, objectively, that one's efforts to "walk in another's shoes" are correct? Are in conformity with the feelings and the facts as seen and experienced by the other person we are trying to understand? How does one test that? Is talking to the person involved sufficient? How do you know that they know what you perceive in them?

Question: How do T's do this, or try to do this, with their clients? Is this a skill they are taught in T-school? Are all T's equally adept in doing this? Can you flunk out of T-school because this task is beyond you? Can you still have a successful career as a practicing T despite being unable to do this?

Question: Is it ever really possible to "walk in the shoes of another?" Really? Aren't our efforts, however successful they may be, always falling short of the extent of knowledge implied (at least to me) by that phrase? To what extent, if any, do we all really live our lives in solitude?

These are just questions generated by reading Yoda's sig. That's all. Take care.

[venusss]

We can never know. If the person's situation is too different from mine, too out of my world... I cannot know.

However, I personally try not to judge. Doesn't mean I don't at times.

[sorrel]

My solution is to ask! Sounds, like, obvious, but it's the only real way.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by sorrel

My solution is to ask! Sounds, like, obvious, but it's the only real way.

The Gordian Knot Untied! Surely you're correct. But what if the people you ask don't feel like telling the truth? Or don't admit the truth to themselves? Or don't know the truth about how they feel about this, that or the other? I know an awful lot of people who fall into these categories. I'm related to many of them! Take care.

[sorrel]

Well, at least even so it's where they're at, and I'm not [as is usually the case - though I'm sometimes very right] trying to analyse them myself.

Why We Often Take Things Other People Say the Wrong Way
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-the-wrong-way

We are all unique and our perception based on our uniqueness is subjective and never completely coincidental with that of others.

[turquoisesea]

I think we just have to try our best. Expanding our view to include our perception of others feelings I think is important. Though we can never be 100% sure what they are thinking or how they really feel once you know a person a while you can get a feel for them and guess. I think asking them is really important because it avoids confusion, but as Byz pointed out it can never be sure. Because everyone lies sometimes, sometimes without meaning to and sometimes even to themselves.

[Fresia]

I only have my own perceptions and experiences to base things on. There is no way to know their experiences, thoughts, feelings, or perceptions to shape their situation. I can ask, I can possibly surmise some things (which can cause problems), but still, I can only poorly attempt at understanding. I will however still try to at least empathize were I in a similar situation, which still does not come close to their own circumstance. So I can never know what someone else is gong through and will not pretend to actually know their perspective, yet will still try to understand it but I can't know it.

[ECHOES]

I ask, including clarification if needed. I relate it to my own experiences and those of others I know of have known. I don't demand a guarantee that I am understanding perfectly.

[Omers]

Part of this is also called "theory of mind", understanding another perspective in a given context/situation. As an Autistic I am sorely lacking in theory of mind and so am particularly bad at "walking in another shoes" no matter how hard I try. I I know the answer to "Question: Is there any way of KNOWING, objectively, that one's efforts to "walk in another's shoes" are correct?" is very clearly NO, I cannot. I find that I am often very harshly judged for my inability to do this. I feel however that everyone does it to a LIMITED capability... my capability is just so much more limited I stand out.

LOVE this question: "Question: How do T's do this, or try to do this, with their clients? Is this a skill they are taught in T-school? Are all T's equally adept in doing this? Can you flunk out of T-school because this task is beyond you? Can you still have a successful career as a practicing T despite being unable to do this?"

My T does not do this with me which is what makes her seem cold... however it is part of what works SO very well between us (thanks for the help on the homework... we have been working on a list of things she does right). YES, T's can be removed from/fail practicum for not being able to do this appropriately at least in the schools I was in. I however believe that for some you can be an even MORE successful T without this ability because, if you are aware of your limitations you will make fewer assumptions about your clients experience. IMO the job of a T is, in part, to get the client to better able to describe/define their experience. Often T's who are good at walking in others shoes do not push their clients to do this but rather the T tries to work things out themselves... IMO it is like a parent doing their child's homework... However, my T and I differ STRONGLY on this opinion.

"Question: Is it ever really possible to "walk in the shoes of another?" Really? Aren't our efforts, however successful they may be, always falling short of the extent of knowledge implied (at least to me) by that phrase? To what extent, if any, do we all really live our lives in solitude?"
For me the answer to the first point is a very clear, hard NO! IMO our solitude is directly correlated with how well we can express ourselves to those around us AND how well we are able to surround ourselves with people who are equally capable of receiving that information.

However, if you would like to walk in my shoes they are a mens, size 9.5 (US), Twisted X, 13", steel toed boot with slightly more wear on the back outside of each heel than anywhere else.

[SophiaG]

I think if you just try not to hurt other peoples feelings, you're doing pretty good on empathy.

[lizardlady]

This is my third time typing a response to your questions Ygrec. This time I’m writing it in Word before I try to post it.

Question: Is there any way of KNOWING, objectively, that one's efforts to "walk in another's shoes" are correct? Are in conformity with the feelings and the facts as seen and experienced by the other person we are trying to understand? How does one test that? Is talking to the person involved sufficient? How do you know that they know what you perceive in them?

I don’t believe we can ever objectively know what another person experiences. Each of us has a history that influences how we react to events and perceive those events. Personally, I believe we have to ask the other person if our perceptions are right.

Question: How do T's do this, or try to do this, with their clients? Is this a skill they are taught in T-school? Are all T's equally adept in doing this? Can you flunk out of T-school because this task is beyond you? Can you still have a successful career as a practicing T despite being unable to do this?

I don’t usually admit to being a T on the boards. Everyone reading this, please remember that I come to PC for the same reasons as you – for support and companionship. I am expressing personal opinions.

Yes, Ts try to practice empathy (walk in their shoes) with clients. Some are better at it than others. We are better at it with some clients than others. Personally, I believe grad school enhances empathy skills the person already has. We are taught ways of better understanding clients. We are taught ways of checking our own empathic response.
Are all equally good at it? Heck no! In my personal opinion, training can enhance latent skills the person already has, but can’t create empathy in someone who doesn’t have some foundation to work from. To me it’s similar to any other skill. Some people can spend their life learning to play the piano, but lacking innate musical skill they become a musical “technician”. They play the notes, but it lacks the feeling of the playing of someone who feels the music, who has the innate connection with music.

Can you flunk out of T school for lacking empathy? Some programs will flunk students they believe are no qualified to be Ts. However, others will not out of fear of being sued by the person they flunk.

Can someone be “successful” as a T without empathy? Guess it depends on how you define “successful”. If you mean able to earn a living, then probably yes. If you mean be effective at helping people, probably no.

Question: Is it ever really possible to "walk in the shoes of another?" Really? Aren't our efforts, however successful they may be, always falling short of the extent of knowledge implied (at least to me) by that phrase? To what extent, if any, do we all really live our lives in solitude

?

Can we actually walk in another’s shoes? Probably not. As I said before each of use filters events through our own history, our own unique set of experiences. I do believe we can develop an understanding of what the other person experiences by asking them and getting feedback.
Do we live in solitude? Yes and no. Each of us lives alone inside our own heads. BUT we can reach out to each other and offer/receive understanding and support. Isn’t that one of the foundations for PC?

[madisgram]

How do you know that they know what you perceive in them?

my intuitiveness is a good start for me. i don't know why it's so exact but it is. their response lets me know if i am perceiving them correctly or on the right track.

Is there any way of KNOWING, objectively, that one's efforts to "walk in another's shoes" are correct?

i can be empathetic even if i haven't walked in their shoes and respect the feelings or perception they have even if i disagree. if i'm not understanding their feelings i find ppl let me know. i'm comfortable making suggestions if they approach me first about their feelings. often times i can relate from my own experiences. other times i use the coping skills i have learned to suggest to them. i find good communication with them and my listening to them really helps.

How do T's do this, or try to do this, with their clients? Is this a skill they are taught in T-school? Are all T's equally adept in doing this? Can you still have a successful career as a practicing T despite being unable to do this?

to the second question, i believe both, some of the skills are acquired at school but the better T has more ability in applying the skills or are simply smarter at what they do. some T's are not adept using or applying these skills cause they lack the ability, imo. many T's have successful practices but not because they are good. many clients are not knowledgeable enough to spot the ineffective T. so they keep going to appts. yet get nowhere.

Can you flunk out of T-school because this task is beyond you?

i'm not sure re flunking out. however one can apply on paper at school but not know how to apply it in real life. that's why there are some ineffective T's out there. their clients make no headway because of this.

Aren't our efforts, however successful they may be, always falling short of the extent of knowledge implied? To what extent, if any, do we all really live our lives in solitude?

well i don't feel there's meter to determine this. we do the best we can do. for me i don't feel i'm falling short. no one can attain perfection. maybe i'm more of an egoist than i realize. and this is just me-i don't feel i really live my life in solitude. i feel i'm in the mainstream of life to the extent i want to be.
i hope i'm addressing your questions, ygrec.

[Ygrec23]

Originally Posted by Omers

Is there any way of KNOWING, objectively, that one's efforts to "walk in another's shoes" are correct?" is very clearly NO, I cannot. I find that I am often very harshly judged for my inability to do this. I feel however that everyone does it to a LIMITED capability... my capability is just so much more limited I stand out.

But why are you "very harshly judged"? Is it only by people who don't know you're autistic? And why the harshness? What's the "badness," the evil that they see in your inability? Do both men and women react the same way to their perceptions of your inability?

Question: Is it ever really possible to "walk in the shoes of another?" Really? Aren't our efforts, however successful they may be, always falling short of the extent of knowledge implied (at least to me) by that phrase? To what extent, if any, do we all really live our lives in solitude?" For me the answer to the first point is a very clear, hard NO! IMO our solitude is directly correlated with how well we can express ourselves to those around us AND how well we are able to surround ourselves with people who are equally capable of receiving that information.

That's a VERY interesting prescription for how to minimize solitude: (1) maximize your powers of self-expression, and (2) surround yourself with people who can best comprehend what you say. Hmmmmmm.

[Open Eyes]

Originally Posted by Ygrec23

Yoda's sig has a quotation of which the following is part: "Before you judge my life or my character ... [w]alk in my shoes." Many of us have heard that or something similar to it before in our lives. And I'd guess that many of us have tried to utilize that standard when dealing with other people. And sometimes we feel we have indeed understood (=walked in the shoes of?) someone else, and sometimes we give up trying because we feel we can't do it.

Question: Is there any way of KNOWING, objectively, that one's efforts to "walk in another's shoes" are correct? Are in conformity with the feelings and the facts as seen and experienced by the other person we are trying to understand? How does one test that? Is talking to the person involved sufficient? How do you know that they know what you perceive in them?
This is a very good question and the answer is that there is not really and exact and completely accurate way to KNOW all that is entailed in anothers "shoes" so to speak. But we have come very far in defining different issues that can be presented in the human brain and by exposing ourselves to studieing the minds of different individuals and how these issues present a common struggle we can understand a lot.

Though we are all unique and there are several factors that contribute to each individual's perceptions, it is very possible by identifying and issue and an individual's personal history, we can see how those so called shoes are filled. And we really have made a lot of progress in our capacities to see an individuals perceptions and personal struggles. But I truely feel that we still have more to learn.

Question: How do T's do this, or try to do this, with their clients? Is this a skill they are taught in T-school? Are all T's equally adept in doing this? Can you flunk out of T-school because this task is beyond you? Can you still have a successful career as a practicing T despite being unable to do this?

This is also partly answered in my response above. But given the fact that a therapist is also human and therefore has his own unique perceptions and a history that has created those perceptions, there is room for error in efforts to treat some patients. I personally feel that if we actually took an individual that has presented issues and has also found an understanding of these issues and has gained knowledge and found ways to overcome these issues, that could be an ideal person to treat others that are challenged with the same issues. Because at the very least, this individual will know intimately that base personal struggle.

And I have noticed that in a place like PC which offers support that gives individuals an exposure to others that present the same issues it truely has a very theraputic positive value in a healing process. Having the exposure to others that can truely identify with a personal struggle really provides an individual with a true sense of not being so isolated and alone and misunderstood. And I also feel that it can also provide for a great atmosphere to observe and study and learn for those that are trying to understand the common struggles of different psychological issues. And in seeing the several common inabilites that are present in each group, there can be a method devised to address that common inability and actually provide a way to live a productive life around that inability.



Question: Is it ever really possible to "walk in the shoes of another?" Really? Aren't our efforts, however successful they may be, always falling short of the extent of knowledge implied (at least to me) by that phrase? To what extent, if any, do we all really live our lives in solitude?

I really think that we are gaining in our ability to provide a much better method of helping others find ways to live lives that can help them gain a way out of that personal sence that their issue must only mean solitude and isolation from others.

We do have to consider the fact that what we now know is just a beginning and is really in an infancy stage towards helping human beings learn how to better gravitate towards other human beings in a healthy way. And when I say infancy, I truely mean that. I do see a lot of potential for human beings to possibly get to a point where there will be ways to eventually present a better way to develope each human being in a positive manner regardless of each one of these various challenges within different brains. But we truely have a long way to go before that is truely accomplished. Ofcourse that is if we can allow ourselves to continue to exist and actually evolve.

These are just questions generated by reading Yoda's sig. That's all. Take care.

Open Eyes

Hi Ygrec - Just throwing in my 2 cents worth here ...

I think that a skilled T is able to empathize with the emotion, rather than the event that caused the emotion. For example, a T knows what loss feels like - they've experienced it in their own lives. So when a good T identifies that a client is feeling loss, they can truly empathize with how the client is feeling. And a good T will make no judgment as to whether the event that caused that feeling of loss is "worthy" of that feeling. We are all unique. One person might be devastated by the loss of a pet, while another might feel sad for a day or two and then be over it. It doesn't make that sense of grief any less if people tell us to "get over it - it was just a cat". Our emotion is real. I think T's build trust with us this way. It's such a good feeling to know that your T understands how you are feeling, whether they've experienced the same event or not. They understand how you feel.

Same goes for all the basic emotions like anger, frustration, elation, whatever. I think we can be better people if we empathize with the people in our lives and focus on the emotions they're feeling, rather than trying to understand the exact experience they went through. If we went through that experience ourselves, we might react differently. So to empathize with someone is to empathize with the emotion they're feeling.

This is kind of jumbled - I'm often not good at expressing myself. But I could be here all day trying to compose a lucid post, and I really should be working.

[Ygrec23]

Just to bring things together and up-to-date, by no means to stop the discussion, but to help refocus it, the following question occurred to me on re-reading all of your posts:

Question: It would appear that we all agree that "walking in another's shoes" is not something we can ever fully realize with one hundred percent confidence. That being the case, my next question is, is it still worth continuing to exert time and effort both individually, as people trying to help other people, and collectively, as a society trying to improve the general level of social empathy, mutual understanding, and peer-to-peer help and support?

In other words, do we keep striving, as individuals all our lives, as a society forever, to penetrate other people's minds, understand their souls, feel their pain, connect with their history? Or, because we can't totally effectuate any of these things, because we will never, with one hundred percent certainty, "walk in another's shoes," do we just let everything drop and walk away from it?

I ask these questions because, over the past three or four decades we here in the U.S. have heard, over and over, in a number of areas of society, and particularly in academia, that because we'll never achieve the ultimate aims of a particular project, and because we'll have to settle for less-than-perfect results, we should not only abandon the attempt, but treat any continuing such attempt with contempt and contumely.

What do you think? Keep trying or forget it?

[InnerPeaceSession]

You know what you know.
You know what you are capable of knowing.
In other words it can seem like another is going through an identical experience but it may not be the case.
Now how can I be certain, I unfortunately don't know yet.

[sunrise]

How Do You Know What Another Feels?

The book Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman addresses a lot of what is being raised here. I think he divides EI into 10 skills and explains each and how to better develop it in oneself. Empathy is one of the skills. I took a class on the empathy skill once in my workplace. It was offered by a couple of guys who offered courses on the 10 EI skills, one by one. I remember a book they referenced heavily in the empathy course was Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg. I have found that book extremely useful in developing my communication skills, which helps in social relations.