[di meliora]

Dr. Jerome Kagan reviews a book by Samuel Barondes about decoding the mysteries of personality. I found it interesting for several reasons, including the difficulties professionals have in understanding why people are the way they are.

Lists of traits are part of Barondes book. While reading the lists, I made comparisons with how I viewed myself. As Dr. Kagan asserts, people often view themselves quite differently than others perceive them. I know that to be true for me.

From the review:

The narrative rests on two ideas. The first, which is in accord with evidence, but is given the least attention, is that each person’s genetic makeup makes an important contribution to his or her personality. Few scientists would quarrel with that declaration. Barondes acknowledges that the available evidence is too sparse to permit any firm conclusions regarding a relationship between any gene, or genes, and any known personality trait because a person’s experiences not only control the form that an inherited trait assumes but also influence the level of gene expression.

The heart of the text revolves around the second idea: three lists of words naming human characteristics. One list refers to 10 profiles that psychiatrists use to classify patients:

• excessive disregard for others

• unusual sensitivity to criticism

• extreme impulsivity

• overdependence on others

• constant seeking of attention

• feelings of grandiosity

• perfectionism

• paranoid distrust of others

• emotional detachment

• eccentric habits

The second list names a number of character traits, such as orderliness, humility, courage, and wisdom, which, Barondes notes, Benjamin Franklin would have endorsed. The third list refers to five continuous dimensions, called the Big Five, on which people are placed depending on their answers to a questionnaire. The five dimensions are extraversion to introversion, agreeable to disagreeable, conscientious to careless, open to new ideas to dogmatically closed, and tense to relaxed. http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=34364

Among Dr. Kagan's criticisms of Dr. Barondes book is this one:

A third problem is that the Big Five represent relatively superficial human traits. This set of properties ignores the variation in sexual urges and sexual conflict; intensity of guilt or shame over failing to honor seminal moral standards of loyalty, honesty, and kindness; and the strength of identifications with one’s gender, class, and ethnic groups, all of which profoundly influence our moods and actions. The scale called “open to new ideas” is associated with whether a person grew up with a disadvantaged or privileged social class. More relevant is the fact that, rather than any known gene or a score on a questionnaire, a person’s social class remains the best predictor of the likelihood of a bout of anxiety or depression, a criminal career, or addiction to alcohol or other drugs. The reason for this robust fact is that a disadvantaged class position is associated with chronic worry over financial security, boring or physically strenuous work, poor health, few years of education, anger toward people who have more privilege, and feelings of self-doubt or shame about one’s relative status in the society that create anxiety about social interactions with more affluent, better-educated adults. For example, the memoir of the popular writer John Updike contains a confession of the deep shame he felt about his family’s compromised class position in a small Pennsylvania town.

We really are more complicated and mysterious than we actually believe. No wonder getting along while in proximity with others is such a challenge.

[Gus1234U]

fascinating stuff, thanks for sharing~ best wishes,, Gus

[Open Eyes]

Good article Elan,
But what if we take that same list and think about our parents and how that list applies to them. After all we don't pick our parents, we just come into this world and spend many years shaped by one or two parents and how they express the above lists.

I had taken a trip with my mother about 6 or 7 years ago back to her home town and where she grew up. Her father was a Scottish immagrant and went through the depression and lost a lot, and his wife always hid money, something many people learned how to do through the ages, that meant some security. So after losing their home and business my grandmother presented her hidden money and they purchased a lot of land on an island in a big lake. And my grandfather built houses that became vacation homes for wealthy people.

Upon our visit we went to a small beach that was set aside for this wealthy community so there was a public area to socialize for those that didn't have homes right on the water. And while we were visiting that little beach in the off season and no one was there, my mother pointed to a small area where she learned was her restricted area and that she was not allowed to interact with the wealthy families that vacationed on the island and enjoyed this beach area. I saw her looking over at that area and she cried and talked about her limits and how it conveyed that she was taught to think she was was not good enough to interact with these people. It was really sad because I could really see how emotionally disturbing it was for her, how she was trained to believe that she was not good enough from such an early age. But this was something that was also trained into her parents that was passed to her.

The one thing my mother did learn is a bit of defiance and she did find ways to sneak herself into giving herself permission to do some things. And in that sneakyness she slowly learned another pattern, I don't have permission, but I will sneak in and grab opportunity when I can, but I have to sneak it in. And that is how she really lived her life, she submissed even to my father, but as soon as he went away she just had to do something while he was gone, like paint a room in the house or change furniture around or get something new. So now thinking back she was practicing her own little method of gaining permission to have a little power of her own. But it was sad because she was very trained to lay in wait psychologically until she could find a way to self express.

Each and every one of us has a genetic abilities that are given to us through our family genetic chain. But we also carry personal limitations that we are not consciously aware of. Even if someone is of a lower class and that person strikes out on their own and gets and education, and masters a certain field, it is not enough. Because even if someone gains knowledge, they still may feed some kind of negetive limitation of unworthiness that can be handed to them by a parent or family atmosphere. And that conditioning that we are handed by a parent can limit our way of giving ourselves real permission to have a productive, positive way of interacting and performing to our true capacities. And we all can form negetive, self limiting, even angry personal views that we are simply not aware of, but we actually limit ourselves unknowingly. We can carry a stain that says, no one likes me, all men are mean, all women are manipulative and jealous, I will never be qualified to communicate in a way that is effective, someone will see my weakness, I am not real, just pretend, I am not allowed to be happy but I shall pretend I can be happy in front of others. The list of negetive self limitations and even sentivities or decisions to consider certain kinds of people a threat in someway are often handed to many of us and we don't truely recognize it. And some of these internal limitations can harbor anger and some may end up doing things that are wasteful, things they may regret later in life, but are truely not their fault, it was something that they obtained in their childhood messages that scewed their perceptions unknowingly.

It has been proven that someone can come from a poor family, get and education and truely succeed in life. The one thing many of these people talk about is a parent that gave them permission, had faith in them, loved them and even showed them an example of working hard and enjoying life even though there is some limitation. "My mother always loved me, raised all of us and worked very hard and told us all we are special, get an education, you can do it" are the sentiments these strong successful people describe. Or, it could be from a mentor, uncle, friend, teacher, coach anyone that gave permission and validation and set a positive example.

As each of us struggle here at PC and we discuss our struggles and even sense of personal value, even if we have been a victim of abuse or a bad marriage, or no marriage or no friends even. We have to pay attention to what we are really saying and ask ourselves where this comes from and how we can learn to change that perception. Because if we allow ourselves to be enlightened and learn about where we learned this behavior, we have a foundation where we can see the holes and begin the conscious effort to give ourselves permission to change that perception. Everyone deserves to live their lives and see what special genetic abilities they have and live life differently, with permission to say that we can be, we CAN is a must.

Elan, you posted a very good link to a speach given by a dedicated social worker who has spent her life finding ways to truely help others and find the answers to some of our personal issues. This thread would be a good place to post that same link so members could watch it, think about what information is given here and what this woman has to say as well.

Open Eyes

[happiedasiy]

Your job is done when you see everything as neutral.
No clinging, no attachments
Just a beautiful hellride!

[arcangel]

Yes, excellent post. Maybe it will help me to understand a bit about why some people, particularly women, seem drawn to charlatans and con artists. I'm wondering how the Jim Jones flock perceived Jones and how they viewed themselves.
Or the Manson girls. You could wonder if they were genetically predisposed to following someone they perceived as a wise guru figure. Their character traits must have been very interesting to research psychologists.
I thought the phenomena of groupies was interesting...until I met a few of them.
Well, the phenomena itself was kind of interesting...the groupies themselves were rather boring.

Originally Posted by arcangel

Yes, excellent post. Maybe it will help me to understand a bit about why some people, particularly women, seem drawn to charlatans and con artists. I'm wondering how the Jim Jones flock perceived Jones and how they viewed themselves.
Or the Manson girls. You could wonder if they were genetically predisposed to following someone they perceived as a wise guru figure. Their character traits must have been very interesting to research psychologists.
I thought the phenomena of groupies was interesting...until I met a few of them.
Well, the phenomena itself was kind of interesting...the groupies themselves were rather boring.

There is something about those people. I'm not sure what that something is, exactly. But they have common traits which ... "trigger" certain darker aspects of my personality. Regarding cult members, they're "missing something." They're usually insecure, and they're looking for some purpose or meaning in their life to fill that void.

There aren't many studies on the genetic factors of susceptibility to victimization (because that would imply that there's something wrong with the victims, which would be stepping on a lot of toes). However, I've read a few proposals for studies, mostly in the field of evolutionary psychology. Interesting stuff...

[Open Eyes]

For the life of me those thoughts never entered my mind. But I have wondered why people would follow certain cult type leaders, that has indeed been around for a long time. I had my daughter with a male horse/rider trainer once and he displayed very odd behavior to me. There was another trainer that was very popular and there were a lot of wealthy women that went with this other trainer, but their husband's were there too. (Both trainers were straight by the way) The other trainer was a blonde irishman with an accent and he was of a charming sort. But the trainer my daughter had was so jealous of that other trainer. And that is all he would talk about is that other trainer and somehow beating him in the competitions. And my daughters pony beat one of the other trainer's top ponies and my daughter's trainer completely embarrassed me by needing to rub it in the other trainer's face. I noticed that he took every opportunity to do so, and the other trainer never was anything but curtious and he just could not understand why my daughter's trainer disliked him so much. And I have to say that it truely not only embarrassed me but it got down right sickening. Ofcourse I eventually took my daughters horse and left this trainer with his jealous childish behavior and he was the same one that I reported for child abuse because that was really the reason I left. But I didn't go to the irish trainer, although I am sure he would have accomodated me. I went somewhere else where I could be away from that whole scenario, even then the trainer I left stalked us at horse shows and did other things that were not nice at all.

But one day the irish man and I had a very brief chat because he did notice the stalking, all the trainers did, and in our brief conversation he asked me why my old trainer hated him so much as they barely knew each other. My reply was that he was just very jealous, and that was the truth. And now that I look at that list, that trainer I left had every personality trait on that list.

But of the two men, they both had people that blindly followed them. I was the only one that walked away from both of them. And both groups of people wondered why I had the courage to walk away from one and why didn't I go to the other, it was bazaar.

No, I don't like cliques and I don't like people who fixate with some kind of sick jealousy either. But people do hang together that way, I just never did.

And that petty crap, really turns me OFF.

And I noticed people do that, especially men, I wonder why because it is such a turn off. And the men that do that are really shallow and stupid, it is such a waste of energy to me, kinda like war is, yeah men are the ones that start wars too, and wars are so wasteful too. Must be some kind of very primitive ape like behavior that never progressed somehow.

Open Eyes