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Old Mar 04, 2014, 07:49 PM
The Fox & the Hound The Fox & the Hound is offline
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For depression, bipolar, & other mental illnesses.

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Old Mar 04, 2014, 09:25 PM
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only god knows and I don't believe in god.
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  #3  
Old Mar 04, 2014, 11:08 PM
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To the best of my knowledge, no one really knows. In fact, no one is really even positive that imbalances cause such disorders.

However, some imbalances make sense. Hormonal imbalances can be traced to diseases, weight, and monthly cycles in some cases. Also, drug intake, certain foods, and lack of sleep can alter your body chemistry.

I have a mild bi polar disorder. No med ever corrected my balance, so I choose to manage my illness with good sleep, not drinking too much, eating well, and learning more about my illness so that I can identify behaviors that can be affecting my mood and ability to function. For example, I try to identify black and white thinking so that I can be open to see things in a more proactive way and I try to identify behaviors such as grandiosity so that I can identify if I am in an up and then be careful.

Hope this helps.
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by The Fox & the Hound View Post
For depression, bipolar, & other mental illnesses.
sometimes genetics, sometimes its a physical health problem that affected the persons brain and their brains functionings, sometimes drugs and alcohol can cause a persons brain chemicals to change and not work right....I know someone what was hit by lightening, perfectly normal before it but after his brain functioning and brain chemicals were not working right any more resulting in his having PTSD, generalized depression and bipolar disorder.

line in the sand there are many reasons and things that can cause a person to have mental disorders due to chemical imbalances.

suggestion your treatment providers can help you understand why your brain is the way it is, assuming your question is about yourself. if its about someone else well their treatment provider will know whats what behind why their brain works the way it does.
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 04:40 AM
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suggestion your treatment providers can help you understand why your brain is the way it is, assuming your question is about yourself. if its about someone else well their treatment provider will know whats what behind why their brain works the way it does.
um, decent treatment provider will tell you "we don't know". If somebody tells you that "this and this is going on in your brain" based on self-reported symptoms... they are pretty much pulling it out of their butt.

Quote:
To the best of my knowledge, no one really knows. In fact, no one is really even positive that imbalances cause such disorders.

However, some imbalances make sense. Hormonal imbalances can be traced to diseases, weight, and monthly cycles in some cases. Also, drug intake, certain foods, and lack of sleep can alter your body chemistry.
indeed. unproven theory.
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 11:16 AM
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Venus I totally agree. Still to this day with all our medical advances and technology we do not know anything about the brain. We know chemicals, either secreted by our own bodies or external chemicals, affect brain function in good and bad ways. But we do not know the extent of damage due to different chemicals. No 2 ppl are the same and no 2 brains are made up the same way. We have known average levels but nothing exact.

To give exact information regarding the brain would be irresponsible in any medical or scientific profession.
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 12:15 PM
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I'm reading a book by a PhD who stated that most all mental illness and addiction stem from childhood issues that were never addressed.

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Old Mar 05, 2014, 12:20 PM
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Biology seems to be the big culprit for me. My whole family has mental illness (mom, dad, sister).
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 12:45 PM
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schitzophrenia also runs in my family, probably a brain misfunction, plus envionmental factors too. we are like guinea pigs with the meds, but i know for myself they do work for me.
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 12:48 PM
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The only proven "chemical imbalance" has been caused by the meds.

If you want to talk about what causes your illness… I just started a book that describes the brain as a diverse system rather then a machine. There is a whole system of parts connected in ways that are unique to your genetics, biology, experience. If you think about it that way coming up with a single or even a few answers is impossible. Our medical community is taught to think things that aren't normal are diseases. But normal is defined by the culture and cultures change. I read about one Native American tribe where 75% consider themselves depressed. " the way to deal with the depression, the Salish believe, is by transforming ones sadness into compassion for others. It doesn't get rid of the depression[…]"
In short they believe depressed people make the best guides and teachers. In fact there is research that depressed people see the world more realistically.

I think trying to come up with a "cause" is like looking for a needle in a haystack.

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Old Mar 05, 2014, 12:50 PM
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um, decent treatment provider will tell you "we don't know". If somebody tells you that "this and this is going on in your brain" based on self-reported symptoms... they are pretty much pulling it out of their butt.



indeed. unproven theory.
here in america we have just changed to a new standard of treatment and diagnosis process. self reporting is now part of the process and is perfectly ok. example if you read the DSM 5 ( which is the standard american treatment providers go by now) ,you will find the words....

These signs and symptoms may be observed by others or reported by the individual.....as part of the diagnostic criteria of mental disorders.

even when an american goes to the medical doctor self reported symptoms is a huge part of the diagnostic process..

here in america we have freedoms, rights and are part of the diagnostic process, unless a court of law has appointed another person to do that for us like children have their parents, those who have been through the court system about their abilities may have a guardian, lawyer or social worker that takes care of their mental or physical health decisions. but otherwise americans are now part of the process and their self reporting on their symptoms is now part of it too.

here in america the belief system is that treatment providers can not mind read....they cant know a person is having hallucinations if the patient doesnt self report by saying I see things, they cant know a person is having depression symptoms if the patient doesnt say ...Im so sad all the time, Ive lost interest in doing what I usually enjoy, ...the treatment provider can not mind read and know if a person is hearing voices, spacing off, losing tract of time if the patent doesnt self report by saying I hear voices, yesterday I kept losing track of time and kept spacing off...

I know Europe (where your profile says you are located) sometimes does things differently then america which is probably why our two countries differ on whether a persons self reported symptoms are part of the process of discovering how and why a persons medical and physical health problems/ behavior and what not is the way it is.
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 02:40 PM
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Here in Europe (which is despite fervent tries of Brussels, NOT a country) we also have freedom, so no need to rub it in our collective faces.

What does freedom have to do with chemical imbalances?

Yes, doctors cannot mind-read, not even "here in Europe". They also cannot diagnose "chemical imbalance" without a bloodtest or any test. And test for such imbalance is non-existent and that is what I am talking about.

I am not criticizing self-reporting as part of diagnostic process, there in America, here in Europe, overthere in Asia, downthere in Austria or somewhere over there in Africa. Just saying treatment providers cannot tell you "why" your brain has "chemical imbalance" based on your self-reported symptoms.

I had a doctor try to pull chemical imbalance BS on me. Here in Europe.
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 03:11 PM
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SOME providers are moving towards listening to their patients. I know of stories within the last few years of doctors failing to listen to not just the patient but also the family and the intake nurse regarding patient wishes. It doesn't even matter if they all agree. The doctor has the ability to take the patient to court and order them to take meds or worse. Very scary.

It has gone too far in the wrong direction also. There is something wrong with watching an ad on tv, diagnosing yourself and going to the dr to pick up the prescription. This happens all the time now. I have personally known people argue with the dr about their diagnosis because they didn't like the drug he was recommending. It should be a collaboration.

In many ways the US is behind other countries. There are "patient centered" care facilities in other countries but you have probably never heard the term here. Patient centric means all parties... Drs, therapists, family and the patient discuss the issues. And not over the phone either. In person. Nobody is excluded from the conversation.

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Old Mar 05, 2014, 05:39 PM
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Chemical imbalance is backwards reasoning and it is simply a way of giving people a false model why they should take meds.

Say one has high blood pressure and gets diuretics and the blood pressure normalizes. Then would you say See, the reason you had high blood pressure was you had too much water in your body? No, you wouldn't, but in psychiatry this backwards reasoning is allowed. Just because a chemical helps, the problem must be chemical. Must it? Actually no.

But if you tell it how it is, that your brain has so many things about it, you have different paths of neurons, and paths constantly forming and disconnecting, you have the neuron itself, the coating of it controlling impulses, gaps between cells where the chemicals we talk about when we mention chemical imbalance exist (only), parts of the brain well or less well developed... and every system affect the next system... if you say that and then say, lets forget this whole brain structure and only focus on some of the chemicals that jumps a nerve impulse to the next cell, people would probably wonder why this fixation. And they might not want to take something affecting this system when the brain is about so much more.

It is much easier to say there is a true imbalance in these gaps between neurons that only affects the substances here, it is a "guilt" free explanation.... until someone asks, but why does the imbalance occur?

When you add a med what happens is not just that a certain substance become less or more common, what happens is that a non-chemical reaction of the nerve cells themselves occur, they might grow more receptors for the chemicals, or wither them.

I don't think I have any chemical imbalance at all. Still my meds work. But IMO they compensate for "failure" in other systems, and I think this "failure" is on every level of the brain because everything is connected. The "one thing wrong" view simply can't be right the way I see it.
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 06:50 PM
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The only proven "chemical imbalance" has been caused by the meds.

Been there... over medicated. Not sure if anything I can truly pinpoint anything reasonable why I go into depression or mania - except stress. It plays a huge part in what I am dealing with.. things also run in my family, could be that. Not letting anyone poke my brain to find out
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 07:01 PM
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Pretty much anything can cause a chemical balance at any point. Too much of anything, food, sleep, exercise, and conversely too little of anything can do the same.
The danger comes when people try to alter the balance without knowing exactly what they are doing or what will happen when they do. Ask any doctor, they have no idea how antidepressants work, only that they seem to work, so why not try it. Why not? They deplete your production of natural chemicals in the brain, thats why not. Its the reason it is so hard to go off antidepressants.
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Old Mar 05, 2014, 08:12 PM
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SOME providers are moving towards listening to their patients.
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Old Mar 06, 2014, 12:14 AM
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Because I'm such a stickler on chemistry, I must impress the fact that neurologically, there are different neurotransmitters for different chemicals. It has been clinically proven that neurotransmitters that accept biological chemicals that release dopamine, for instance, (and make the body feel good) close when a person is feeling depressed. So, even when the dopamine is released inside the body from a good work-out, sex, or what have you, the neurortransmitters are closed. Therefore, the end result is the same: depressed. Anti-depressants work by flooding the system with feel-good chemicals, in hope of catching more and more open neurotransmitters. The end result is feeling better and better.

That is the "science" behind the matter. Many new medicines that haven't quite PROVEN this fact are the newer medicines, working towards the same goal. Some meds work toward the same goal in a somewhat different way, but the end result is always the same!
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Old Mar 06, 2014, 01:36 AM
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Because I'm such a stickler on chemistry, I must impress the fact that neurologically, there are different neurotransmitters for different chemicals. It has been clinically proven that neurotransmitters that accept biological chemicals that release dopamine, for instance, (and make the body feel good) close when a person is feeling depressed. So, even when the dopamine is released inside the body from a good work-out, sex, or what have you, the neurortransmitters are closed. Therefore, the end result is the same: depressed. Anti-depressants work by flooding the system with feel-good chemicals, in hope of catching more and more open neurotransmitters. The end result is feeling better and better.

That is the "science" behind the matter. Many new medicines that haven't quite PROVEN this fact are the newer medicines, working towards the same goal. Some meds work toward the same goal in a somewhat different way, but the end result is always the same!

Because i am such a stickler for accuracy google "how do antidepressants work" and you'll find "they don't know how they work" or "they know very little about how they work". In fact there is no evidence that depressed people's brains have any chemical imbalance or "failure to transmit" whatsoever >prior< to taking an antidepressant. Antidepressants do affect chemicals in the brain via transmitters. Each one does in fact effect different neurotransmitters. Those last two sentences alone should be enough to tell you they don't know because if they did you and your doctor wouldn't have to guess

There are people that will use the word "theory". However no scientist would ever say "proven". They'd be the richest person alive if they could say that. Since they can't they'd be kicked out of the establishment.

For me the end result is stability and duller and duller. This true for lots of people. The end result is not always the same. Yet another reason to think they don't know why they work in some people and not in others.

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Old Mar 06, 2014, 01:43 AM
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Chemical imbalance is backwards reasoning and it is simply a way of giving people a false model why they should take meds.

Say one has high blood pressure and gets diuretics and the blood pressure normalizes. Then would you say See, the reason you had high blood pressure was you had too much water in your body? No, you wouldn't, but in psychiatry this backwards reasoning is allowed. Just because a chemical helps, the problem must be chemical. Must it? Actually no.

But if you tell it how it is, that your brain has so many things about it, you have different paths of neurons, and paths constantly forming and disconnecting, you have the neuron itself, the coating of it controlling impulses, gaps between cells where the chemicals we talk about when we mention chemical imbalance exist (only), parts of the brain well or less well developed... and every system affect the next system... if you say that and then say, lets forget this whole brain structure and only focus on some of the chemicals that jumps a nerve impulse to the next cell, people would probably wonder why this fixation. And they might not want to take something affecting this system when the brain is about so much more.

It is much easier to say there is a true imbalance in these gaps between neurons that only affects the substances here, it is a "guilt" free explanation.... until someone asks, but why does the imbalance occur?

When you add a med what happens is not just that a certain substance become less or more common, what happens is that a non-chemical reaction of the nerve cells themselves occur, they might grow more receptors for the chemicals, or wither them.

I don't think I have any chemical imbalance at all. Still my meds work. But IMO they compensate for "failure" in other systems, and I think this "failure" is on every level of the brain because everything is connected. The "one thing wrong" view simply can't be right the way I see it.

Thanks. I'd add that the medical community is taught to look for disease. Iow, they are looking for problems to solve. They don't study any remotely like diversity yet each of our brains is completely unique. How the millions of "wires" and "muscles" connect is uniquely determined. I do not and will not ever believe you can pinpoint a single cause for mental disorder like depression no more than I think there will ever be a "magic bullet" cure. Your body is an ecosystem not a mechanical machine.

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Old Mar 06, 2014, 02:06 AM
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Actually every thing in the universe derives from chemical reactions. Indeed the human body functions by chemical reactions. Every thing we see, hear, touch, smell, feel, do are caused by chemical reactions. Alter this formula by any means, drugs, shock, trauma, blow to the head, what you intake, and strange things happen. So it's logical to counter any imbalance by more chemicals or in our case meds. Kind of begs the question then if every thing we see, hear, touch and feel is caused by mere chemical reactions. What is real?
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Old Mar 06, 2014, 02:43 AM
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I'm reading a book by a PhD who stated that most all mental illness and addiction stem from childhood issues that were never addressed.

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I was forced fed anticonvulsants from age 7-18 for a supposed one time not verified petit mal seizure. In this case I would agree with childhood. Who knows what the Dylantin did to my developing brain. Thanks mommy dearest.
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Old Mar 06, 2014, 03:02 AM
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Actually every thing in the universe derives from chemical reactions. Indeed the human body functions by chemical reactions. Every thing we see, hear, touch, smell, feel, do are caused by chemical reactions. Alter this formula by any means, drugs, shock, trauma, blow to the head, what you intake, and strange things happen. So it's logical to counter any imbalance by more chemicals or in our case meds. Kind of begs the question then if every thing we see, hear, touch and feel is caused by mere chemical reactions. What is real?

The issue isn't whether there are chemical reactions. The issue is whether a MI is due to a chemical >imbalance<. The answer is no.

I tend to think if it is possible to build a matrix we will. But our bodies and brains are more like an ecosystem which means we a way more than a bunch of chemical reactions. We are also electricity and collection of parasites and microbes and mitochondria.

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Old Mar 06, 2014, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by shezbut View Post
Because I'm such a stickler on chemistry, I must impress the fact that neurologically, there are different neurotransmitters for different chemicals. It has been clinically proven that neurotransmitters that accept biological chemicals that release dopamine, for instance, (and make the body feel good) close when a person is feeling depressed. So, even when the dopamine is released inside the body from a good work-out, sex, or what have you, the neurortransmitters are closed. Therefore, the end result is the same: depressed. Anti-depressants work by flooding the system with feel-good chemicals, in hope of catching more and more open neurotransmitters. The end result is feeling better and better.

That is the "science" behind the matter. Many new medicines that haven't quite PROVEN this fact are the newer medicines, working towards the same goal. Some meds work toward the same goal in a somewhat different way, but the end result is always the same!

if dopamine is the feel good chemical, than why it is stressed sometimes that some APs (that decrease the levels of dopamine in the brain) have anti-depressant properties?

The same result? Why do some people end up getting irritable, depressed or even suicidal on ADs?

It just doesn't add up.


(also, lot of things makes us feel better... or even brighter. But do they have something to do with chemical imbalances? How many people can't just do without their coffee? Does it mean their presso balances something for them?)
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Old Mar 06, 2014, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by IndieVisible View Post
Actually every thing in the universe derives from chemical reactions. Indeed the human body functions by chemical reactions. Every thing we see, hear, touch, smell, feel, do are caused by chemical reactions. Alter this formula by any means, drugs, shock, trauma, blow to the head, what you intake, and strange things happen. So it's logical to counter any imbalance by more chemicals or in our case meds. Kind of begs the question then if every thing we see, hear, touch and feel is caused by mere chemical reactions. What is real?
I think therefore I am VS only that which I can percieve is real...but wait what if my perception is alterd then what is real?

Then there is Aldous Huxley's take; There are things known and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors of perception.
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