[yagr]

I have a problem that is causing more than a bit of anxiety and stress. I have taken psychiatric exams a few times and they always come back that I am lying. In fact, I score so dishonest on these tests that they don't even score my results and simply invalidate the tests. That wasn't such a big problem at one point in my life, but now that I'm trying to get disability, those results are being passed on to Social Security disability and they are being told that I'm a liar, which doesn't much help my case, as evidenced by the fact that I've been fighting for disability for five years now.

My therapist believes that I am answering honestly. Her explanation is that I am simply an extreme outlier and unless and until I get a psychologist to actually talk to me, rather than simply score a test, they're never going to 'see' me. So, here's what happened recently. I got a referral to a psychologist and I asked for a structured interview rather than rely on the psychological metrics. I was up front and explained my reasons for requesting it. He tried to assure me that they have systems built in to catch liars and not to worry about it. So I decided to be completely candid, because not being completely candid hasn't worked, and said this:

“Okay, I understand your position, but please consider this: Let's take the MMPI-2 because, with 567 questions, four validity indices, ten major scales and over 120 subscales, it is probably the most complicated of the potential metrics I might be given. The first validity index is the L-test consisting of questions numbers 16, 29, 41, 51, 77, 93, 102, 107, 123, 139, 153, 183, 203, 232, and 260. I'm allowed to mark six false, or 'in the scored direction' before you report that I am 'demonstrating an unsophisticated attempt to portray myself in a positive light' and am 'unwilling to admit to even minor shortcomings'. I mark ten in the scored direction, giving me a T score of over 80, thereby invalidating my test by any measure.”

He was surprised to say the least. I explained that I would not lie on the test and since telling the truth would result in an invalid result, there was really no sense taking the test. I probably went to far at this point but I was feeling rather desperate, and suggested that I could do any test he wanted me to do and make it say anything I wanted and he would believe it – except the truth. He took me up on my challenge and gave me a copy of the MMPI-2 and told me to answer as a 27 yo female paranoid schizophrenic. I should probably mention that I'm a 53 yo man with no schizophrenic tendencies. So I did. It took me forty-five minutes, he scored it and lo and behold...it came back valid and with paranoid schizophrenia. Worse, I didn't open the booklet to read the questions – I know it by heart. I wasn't trying to show off, I was trying to show my fluency – to convince him that if I was willing to lie, I could get disability tomorrow. I was trying to get him to believe me – that's all. He now refuses to test me at all – structured interview or not. In fact, he got quite angry.

I could use a diagnosis. They arrive at these through testing. I really don't know what to do. Any suggestions?

[unaluna]

So you really ARE too smart for your own good. Thats what my mother always told me.

Hasnt life kicked you in the head hard enough yet?

[yagr]

Originally Posted by unaluna

So you really ARE too smart for your own good. Thats what my mother always told me.

lol, yeah. The photographic memory doesn't help either.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Hasnt life kicked you in the head hard enough yet?

My vote is yes.

It's good seeing you again.

[Shazerac]

Wow, I really don’t know what to say. I’m really glad I haven’t had to go through all that. I guess I’ve been pretty lucky. I don’t need to be on disability. I decided I was depressed called a doctor went to see them and got on Meds. End of story. It must really weird to not be able to get a diagnosis.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by yagr

lol, yeah. The photographic memory doesn't help either.
My vote is yes.
It's good seeing you again.

Likewise! My experience was, when kicked hard enough, your brain unravels like an untied uncooked rolled stuffed lamb shoulder.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by Shazerac

Wow, I really don’t know what to say. I’m really glad I haven’t had to go through all that. I guess I’ve been pretty lucky. I don’t need to be on disability. I decided I was depressed called a doctor went to see them and got on Meds. End of story. It must really weird to not be able to get a diagnosis.

Well, to be completely accurate, I have received a diagnosis from my therapist but social security disability considers a diagnosis from a therapist to be an opinion, rather than a bona fide diagnosis. For that, one needs a psychologist. So, I have been diagnosed by my therapist with Asperger's and dissociative identity disorder (she's not the first therapist either) but those two diagnosis's create their own problems with test taking. For instance:

As a function of the Asperger's, I am often confused when a question that almost everyone else has no problem answering is too vague for me, or it's been asked sloppily. i.e. "I seem to be about as capable and smart as most others around me." I have a measured IQ of 172. I am not 'about as capable or smart', I am 'more capable or smart'. So do I mark 'true' or 'false'? I tend to go with false. That capable or smart clearly doesn't extend to my ability to take tests or answer simple questions but if you have a quantum physics question - I am your guy!

As for how the DID impacts my test taking ability: So the teacher calls me up to talk in front of the class. ~I~ don't want to. And alter, who has no difficulties with doing so, comes forth and talks in front of the class. We sit down and the teacher says, “Very good Angel” which tips me off that the talk has been given and the ordeal over. It looks like I just gave the talk; it sounded like I just gave the talk – but ~I~ didn't just give the talk. So for the purposes of this test, did I find it very hard to talk in front of the class? Please know, I got so used to accepting the praise or blame for an alters actions and/or behaviors that it just became second nature to say, for instance and in this case, no I had no difficulty – when in fact, from my perspective, I didn't even do it.

So how do I answer the true/false question: In school I found it very hard to talk in front of the class.

[yagr]

unaluna and Shazerac: Please believe that I am sincere when I say that your support is and was gratefully received and if neither of you have any thoughts on a solution, I'm still thankful you weighed in. That said, can either of you (or anyone else - please) think of anything even resembling a solution moving forward?

[unaluna]

You make a choice.

In the first example question, its a math choice. If the question is fuzzy but you can fix it, answer the fixed question.

In the 2nd example, make a choice of who among you will take the test, and answer for that one person.

But the main thing is, you must make one choice and stick with it. I would say that is the mindset i had to enter. Was i a scientist or a comedian?

[RainyDay107]

Are you venting? I’m not understanding and your IQ is very high. Is it possible you might be overanazing this “conundrum”? I’m familiar with the test.

I’m here to support. I can say your statement to that therapist essentially demonstrated to them you have the knowledge (know which questions are relevant to the issue at hand) to manipulate the test results.

While you sound pleased (?) he was floored, I think you may have proverbially shot yourself in the foot.

Essentially, you want a multiple choice test. This test is T/F. So, answer it in the scope of true or false. You don’t get to choose the test format. Good luck.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by RainyDay107

Are you venting? I’m not understanding and your IQ is very high. Is it possible you might be overanazing this “conundrum”? I’m familiar with the test.

Perhaps I am venting somewhat, but it isn't my primary purpose in posting. I have said nothing to the psychologist ordering the tests with unsatisfactory results, and I have said something with unsatisfactory results, and then I went full disclosure with unsatisfactory results. My primary purpose in posting this question is to determine if there is any way that I can achieve satisfactory results.

Originally Posted by RainyDay107

I’m here to support. I can say your statement to that therapist essentially demonstrated to them you have the knowledge (know which questions are relevant to the issue at hand) to manipulate the test results.

First, thanks for the support. Second, yes - absolutely I demonstrated that I could manipulate the test results. Isn't that relevant? I mean, the fact that I can manipulate the test results but refuse to do so (except in a demonstration in which I am proving that claim) should, I would think, mean something to someone other than just me. There are three important facts here to my mind:

1. A test result which determines that I am a liar will hurt my chances of survival.
2. I continually return test results that say I am a liar.
3. I can, and have, demonstrated that I can make the test return a result that says I am not a liar.

With those three facts in mind, it seems overwhelmingly obvious that one of two things is happening:

1. I am being honest on the test and the validity indices are returning an erroneous result.
or
2. I want to hurt my chances of survival.

Either way, I need help and that help is not going to come in the form of testing me again.

Originally Posted by RainyDay107

While you sound pleased (?) he was floored, I think you may have proverbially shot yourself in the foot.

If I took any pleasure in his reaction, it was short lived. I don't actually recall feeling pleasure at his being floored, but I can imagine that I might have been as his being floored illustrated that I made my point. Making my point meant that I was heard - that I effectively communicated what they have refused to hear from me any other way. However, he took that information and decided that I couldn't be trusted instead.

Look, I get that I shot myself in the foot. If I had to do it over again, I would do it differently. Given another chance I'd like to think that I would answer however I needed to in order to get the help I need and to hell with trying to be open with them. But I don't know if I would; I've got this real visceral reaction to lying or misrepresenting myself.

But really, answering honestly gets the tests thrown out and me branded a liar - which shoots me in the foot. This might have been a bad choice but there's that whole thing about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results - I was trying to do something different, and this was the only thing I could think of. If you can think of another option, I'd be grateful if you'd share it. (Another option besides, don't tell them and get the test invalidated or convince them and have this happen)

Originally Posted by RainyDay107

Essentially, you want a multiple choice test. This test is T/F. So, answer it in the scope of true or false. You don’t get to choose the test format. Good luck.

The last psychologist I saw was a thirty minute meeting with a fellow hired by Social Security. Here's an example of my thinking:

Dr. "Can you tell me the last five presidents?"
Me: "Of the United States?"
Dr. "Yes."
Me: "Does last include current?"
Dr. "Excuse me?"
Me: "If you asked me what I've done the last five mornings, you probably wouldn't expect me to start with, 'I talked to you', you'd probably want me to start with the 'last' morning not including this one."
Dr. "Oh, sure. Yes, by inauguration."
Me: "Trump, Obama, Obama..."
Dr. "Okay, not by inauguration...last five individuals who were President of the United States, starting with the current one."

You're right, I don't get to choose the test format, but the questions are often asked so sloppily that I simply can't answer them. Which leaves me with two choices - guess or leave blank. Depending on the psychologist, test results (on the MMPI-2 - different tests have different cut offs) that have between ten and thirty questions blank that the subject could not answer, are considered invalid.

Frankly, I'm starting to think of ways I can manipulate future tests honestly. For instance, one of the questions that gets me in trouble is "Sometimes in elections, I vote for people about whom I know very little." Now, seeing as I have never voted, the answer to this question for me is false. But! I could register to vote and go vote once and simply vote for people I've never heard of before. Then I could answer 'true' for the next time.

I don't get irritable when I'm not well. Apparently everyone else does. I could begin to be more socially acceptable and demonstrate irritability when I am not feeling well. It would be an act, but the question doesn't specify whether you are acting or not - just do you get irritable. Anyway, that kind of manipulation - it's the only other thing I can think of.

[Shazerac]

I don’t really know what you should do actually. The only thing I can think of is to clarify for yourself what the most important thing that you want/need right now. Trying to buck the system and get a “label” without taking those tests is probably a futile endeavor.

If what you want/need is to be on disability then answer the test however you need to ..to achieve that goal.

Your intelligence and your feeling that you need to refuse to lie are kind of a moot point. The mental health care system is basically broken and will try to cram us all in little boxes. You don’t fit in a pre-made box. So you are kind if forced into a sitatuion where you need to do whatever you need to do to get help/disability coverage.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by yagr

...
With those three facts in mind, it seems overwhelmingly obvious that one of two things is happening:...
2. I want to hurt my chances of survival...
If I took any pleasure in his reaction, it was short lived...
Look, I get that I shot myself in the foot. If I had to do it over again, I would do it differently. Given another chance I'd like to think that I would answer however I needed to in order to get the help I need and to hell with trying to be open with them. But I don't know if I would; I've got this real visceral reaction to lying or misrepresenting myself...
But really, answering honestly gets the tests thrown out and me branded a liar - which shoots me in the foot. This might have been a bad choice but there's that whole thing about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results - I was trying to do something different, and this was the only thing I could think of. If you can think of another option, I'd be grateful if you'd share it...
The last psychologist I saw was a thirty minute meeting with a fellow hired by Social Security. Here's an example of my thinking:...
Dr. "Can you tell me the last five presidents?"
Me: "Of the United States?"
Dr. "Yes."
Me: "Does last include current?"
Dr. "Excuse me?"
Me: "If you asked me what I've done the last five mornings, you probably wouldn't expect me to start with, 'I talked to you', you'd probably want me to start with the 'last' morning not including this one."
Dr. "Oh, sure. Yes, by inauguration."
Me: "Trump, Obama, Obama..."
Dr. "Okay, not by inauguration...last five individuals who were President of the United States, starting with the current one."...
You're right, I don't get to choose the test format, but the questions are often asked so sloppily that I simply can't answer them...
I don't get irritable when I'm not well. Apparently everyone else does. I could begin to be more socially acceptable and demonstrate irritability when I am not feeling well. It would be an act, but the question doesn't specify whether you are acting or not - just do you get irritable. Anyway, that kind of manipulation - it's the only other thing I can think of...

So...you irritate other people, but you dont get irritated. Thats like when my mother used to brag that she didnt get depressed - and my brother and i looked at each and my dad and said, "no, you just depress everyone else around you."

I know your game - i played it myself. Or rather, my introjects played it on me. Thats why i say, the only way out is to make a choice. Or hope you make it to age out of the system, i.e., to retirement age. You are or at least were more likely to get ssdi after age 55. Make a choice.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by unaluna

You make a choice.

In the first example question, its a math choice. If the question is fuzzy but you can fix it, answer the fixed question.

I appreciate you. There are so may examples I could choose and I'm afraid I won't pick the perfect one and it'll be a bad example but here's one: "The sight of blood does not frighten me or make me sick." True or false?

I worked as a combat medic and served in six war zones. I can tell you without hesitation that when faced with an emergency situation such as I routinely faced during that time in my life, the answer is a resounding 'true'. When in a non-emergency situation, the answer is a resounding 'false'. This actually, is not uncommon with folks in the medical field I have found.

Originally Posted by unaluna

In the 2nd example, make a choice of who among you will take the test, and answer for that one person.

But the main thing is, you must make one choice and stick with it. I would say that is the mindset i had to enter. Was i a scientist or a comedian?

*nods* Agreed. I wasn't thrilled with the example I gave above... idk, it gets very complicated for me. Think of it this way - if you've ever driven home tired and found yourself pulling in to your driveway without remembering driving the last twenty miles, then you've dissociated. Most people have done so at some point in their lives. They'll say something like, "I was on autopilot" or "the car drove itself home".

Now imagine someone telling you not to do it. It's not a choice. I know it must seem ridiculous, but we'll often switch involuntarily for mere seconds at a time - long enough for me to acknowledge an acquaintance who is passing us on the street, or long enough for her to answer a question that only she knows the answer to.

This is what I try to do though, inadvertently I'll leave off at question 333 and find myself returning about question 412. (Okay, those numbers were arbitrary, just an example). In a perfect world, I'd go back to the last question I remember answering and check the answers from there but I spent so much time trying to figure out the answer to 'my sex life is satisfactory' that the office is closing in five minutes.

Btw, satisfactory means, 'meeting expectations or needs' according to Webster. I live alone and do not have a girlfriend. I lack of sex therefore, certainly meets my expectations - I don't expect that I'll be having any and that's met. Apparently I don't need sex either because I haven't spontaneously combusted yet. So, true, my sex life is satisfactory. Math equation - fuzzy but I can fix it. Of course, my answer to this question has to be different from a related question three pages from here (another validity test - TRIN). Unfortunately, the answer to this question is also true which is an indication that I am either lying or answering randomly.

~sigh~

[yagr]

Originally Posted by unaluna

So...you irritate other people, but you dont get irritated. Thats like when my mother used to brag that she didnt get depressed - and my brother and i looked at each and my dad and said, "no, you just depress everyone else around you."

I wasn't clear. I do get irritated, it just isn't tied to whether I feel well or not.

[divine1966]

I am glad to see you here again. I PMed you few months ago worrying if you were all right.

The way you answered these questions sound like my husband. Years ago he was in a bad shape, doctors couldn’t find right meds and his OCD took over his life (its safety OCD) and applied for disability (he has legitimate disability: Tourette’s syndrome and severe OCD). He described to me questions he was asked and his he replied, sounds like your story about 5 presidents. He was denied disability.

Eventually his doctor found right meds and my now husband escaped his ex and abusive marriage and never needed to apply for disability again. He is doing well. But when he was telling me about the test I could imagine how aggravated tester was. I was annoyed just listening!

The point here is not how smart one is but how well can one take tests and how well can one BS. If you really want SSI, when asked about 5 presidents you should just suck it up and list 5 presidents or not list them but try not to aggravate testers. Try not to overthink it.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by divine1966

I am glad to see you here again. I PMed you few months ago worrying if you were all right.

Thank you, that was kind. I asked for help with my PM box because it was overrun with messages that wouldn't have been good for me to read - yours must have been lost in the clearing. I'm glad you mentioned it though because I wouldn't have known nor had the opportunity to say thank you.

Originally Posted by divine1966

Eventually his doctor found right meds and my now husband escaped his ex and abusive marriage and never needed to apply for disability again. He is doing well. But when he was telling me about the test I could imagine how aggravated tester was. I was annoyed just listening!

I have a host of physical disabilities as well so this is not the only reason for disability.

Originally Posted by divine1966

The point here is not how smart one is but how well can one take tests and how well can one BS. If you really want SSI, when asked about 5 presidents you should just suck it up and list 5 presidents or not list them but try not to aggravate testers. Try not to overthink it.

A couple of thoughts here: Do you think that I was trying to aggravate the tester? I certainly wasn't. It seems that many people can't for the life of them believe that I don't understand many questions the way they are asked - but I don't. I have heard the 'overthinking' thing before - you are certainly not the first, but for me, it is just thinking. Not to be rude, but from my perspective, everyone else just seems to underthink.

I actually oscillate between extreme frustration and extreme mirth watching interactions between people sometimes, wondering how in the heck they can understand each other when they ask questions the way they do.

For instance, let's say that you are a schoolteacher. If one of your students asked you what the last job you had was, you would (I'm guessing from observing similar situations and listening to conversations) probably not say, 'school teacher', right? You would tell them the job you had prior to teaching school...yes? I'm thinking that the operative word is 'last'.

So when I am asked to list the lastfive presidents - I'm thinking, he doesn't want the current one just like you, in the previous example wouldn't say 'school teacher' (unless your last job prior to the current one was also school teacher).

How everyone in the world seems to instinctively know that 'last' means inclusive in this instance, and not inclusive in this other instance, is absolutely bizarre to me. Then he said 'inauguration' - there is nothing to over-think here. If we are talking about inaugurations, then Obama must be listed twice. But once again, everyone in the world seems to know that when he says inauguration he means something else - and I don't.

I have received so many suggestions over the course of my lifetime and I can't think of a single suggestion that doesn't come down to this: In order for us to test the way you think, you need to pretend to think more like us. Which doesn't actually test me but rather it tests my acting ability.

I don't know why I've got such a problem with lying; I truly wish I could get over it.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by yagr

Thank you, that was kind. I asked for help with my PM box because it was overrun with messages that wouldn't have been good for me to read - yours must have been lost in the clearing. I'm glad you mentioned it though because I wouldn't have known nor had the opportunity to say thank you.


I have a host of physical disabilities as well so this is not the only reason for disability.


A couple of thoughts here: Do you think that I was trying to aggravate the tester? I certainly wasn't. It seems that many people can't for the life of them believe that I don't understand many questions the way they are asked - but I don't. I have heard the 'overthinking' thing before - you are certainly not the first, but for me, it is just thinking. Not to be rude, but from my perspective, everyone else just seems to underthink.

I actually oscillate between extreme frustration and extreme mirth watching interactions between people sometimes, wondering how in the heck they can understand each other when they ask questions the way they do.

For instance, let's say that you are a schoolteacher. If one of your students asked you what the last job you had was, you would (I'm guessing from observing similar situations and listening to conversations) probably not say, 'school teacher', right? You would tell them the job you had prior to teaching school...yes? I'm thinking that the operative word is 'last'.

So when I am asked to list the lastfive presidents - I'm thinking, he doesn't want the current one just like you, in the previous example wouldn't say 'school teacher' (unless your last job prior to the current one was also school teacher).

How everyone in the world seems to instinctively know that 'last' means inclusive in this instance, and not inclusive in this other instance, is absolutely bizarre to me. Then he said 'inauguration' - there is nothing to over-think here. If we are talking about inaugurations, then Obama must be listed twice. But once again, everyone in the world seems to know that when he says inauguration he means something else - and I don't.

I have received so many suggestions over the course of my lifetime and I can't think of a single suggestion that doesn't come down to this: In order for us to test the way you think, you need to pretend to think more like us. Which doesn't actually test me but rather it tests my acting ability.

I don't know why I've got such a problem with lying; I truly wish I could get over it.

No I don’t think you deliberately TRIED to aggravate testers, neither was my husband when he was questioning questions instead of answering them. I just suggest that you TRY NOT to aggravate them.

Yes I understand that questions are imperfect. But you aren’t there to improve quality of tests. You are there to get SSI. You could answer presidents prior to current one were: XYZ. Or you could say 5 including the last one were XYZ. I think less you ask, better you might be. Maybe ask less?

If you have ASD, even mild, it might effect how you understand and process questions. That’s fairly typical. In my line of work I see it all the time.
Everyone will just answer questions, right or wrong but person with ASD would understand it was something else. Sometimes understanding it too literally. It doesn’t matter how smart you are, you might just not grasp nuances.

I don’t condone lying though

What I don’t undersrand is how can psychiatrists not understand why you answer questions the way you do?

[divine1966]

Like if you look at this interaction:
Dr. "Can you tell me the last five presidents?"
Me: "Of the United States?"

Did you really think he’d ask presidents of some other country and wouldn’t he then specify that?

Dr. "Yes."
Me: "Does last include current?"
Dr. "Excuse me?"
Me: "If you asked me what I've done the last five mornings, you probably wouldn't expect me to start with, 'I talked to you', you'd probably want me to start with the 'last' morning not including this one."

You could just list them including or not including, no matter. Example of what you did in the morning sounds a bit “smart pants” and sounds as you are criticizing style of questioning, you aren’t there for that

Dr. "Oh, sure. Yes, by inauguration."
Me: "Trump, Obama, Obama..."
Dr. "Okay, not by inauguration...last five individuals who were President of the United States, starting with the current one."...

It’s obvious Obama served twice but why repeat twice. Maybe you could repeat twice but mentioned Obama served twice. He asked for 5 presidents? You were going to list 4? But he didn’t ask for 4. Do you always answer like that? If I am asked last 5 people visiting my house, I wouldn’t list my mom twice. Or I’d specify “mom came here twice”.

Is that how you always answer questions? With a lot of clarification fixation questions or your own examples? Or just these type of questions?

[here today]

Originally Posted by yagr

Well, to be completely accurate, I have received a diagnosis from my therapist but social security disability considers a diagnosis from a therapist to be an opinion, rather than a bona fide diagnosis. For that, one needs a psychologist. So, I have been diagnosed by my therapist with Asperger's and dissociative identity disorder (she's not the first therapist either) but those two diagnosis's create their own problems with test taking. For instance:

As a function of the Asperger's, I am often confused when a question that almost everyone else has no problem answering is too vague for me, or it's been asked sloppily. i.e. "I seem to be about as capable and smart as most others around me." I have a measured IQ of 172. I am not 'about as capable or smart', I am 'more capable or smart'. So do I mark 'true' or 'false'? I tend to go with false. That capable or smart clearly doesn't extend to my ability to take tests or answer simple questions but if you have a quantum physics question - I am your guy!
.

I wonder if we can look on this as a QM question, then. I'm just finishing up taking a continuing ed. class (for the second time, didn't get it the first) taught by a retired theoretical physicist and think I get it -- more or less. Also think the QM way of looking the world could be useful to psychology. But that's another thread.

To your situation, then. . . You could use a diagnosis but the measuring instruments aren't capable of providing it. They (or the humans using them) assume that the measuring instruments can -- you showed the guy that was wrong, falsified his theory, and he was pissed, not interested. A very non-scientific, non-Asperger (and non-me, too, even though I don't have Asperger's) response.

The measuring instruments are part and parcel of a social institution that requires them in order to qualify you for disability benefits. The measuring instruments are "entangled" with the social institution. Probably no way to disentangle that, given the large macrosopic size and number of people and other factors in that system.

Except, if perhaps?, you could find a licensed psychologist at a university or somewhere who might actually be interested in people and the benefits and limitations of psychometrics? Someone whom you can interest and connect (entangle somewhat?) with, and who can then provide a more reliable measurement of some sort? Anybody whose work you find decent in any research you have done on psychometrics?

[yagr]

Originally Posted by divine1966

It’s obvious Obama served twice but why repeat twice.

I don't spend any time thinking about it, it is simply instinct on my part - since I don't know the purpose of the question, what it is that he is looking for - I mean, maybe he's looking to see whether I know that some presidents served two terms. That actually seems important to me - turns out it wasn't important to him.

Originally Posted by divine1966

Maybe you could repeat twice but mentioned Obama served twice. He asked for 5 presidents? You were going to list 4? But he didn’t ask for 4. Do you always answer like that? If I am asked last 5 people visiting my house, I wouldn’t list my mom twice. Or I’d specify “mom came here twice”.

There's a few things here. Yes, pretty much I always answer like that. It usually isn't an issue because I don't socialize...I mean, at all. The only people I talk to at all are people who know me very well. There just seems to be so much, "Think about the question this way..." suggestions, but if I practice thinking like someone else to prepare for such a set of questions or tests, then they won't actually be testing me, but how well I prepared. That seems kind of screwed up (to me).

Originally Posted by divine1966

Is that how you always answer questions? With a lot of clarification fixation questions or your own examples? Or just these type of questions?

Yes. Although, to be honest, the DID actually helps significantly. Typically, though my answers tend to be not what people are looking for (yet factually correct), I have an alter without ASD who frequently translates (she started doing this about 25 years ago when we became co-conscious for the first time). So I went to the doctor a few weeks ago and he asks me, "What brings you in today?" and I replied without thinking, "My car." An alter quickly translates for me, I flash him a grin or a wink and quickly add, "Just kidding, it's my knee. It's been giving me problems." He laughs at what he assumed was a joke and we proceed. But it wasn't a joke.

When I go in for a psychiatric exam or testing I try to go in there alone, as you suggested earlier (decide in advance who is going to take the test and stick to that) and the only way that works is for that alter to head for the back of the bus (our internal world meaning no co-consciousness and she can neither hear nor see anything that is going on). Without her, I'm stuck. With her, she ends up answering too many questions for me - and half the answers end up being from her perspective instead of mine.

That causes a great deal of problems because, as you have no doubt noticed, so many questions are the same basic questions asked just a little bit differently. i.e. Do you like doing art? and Are you artistic? They need to match. I answer one way and she answers another - so it helps if she's out of the room when we find ourselves in such a situation.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by divine1966

If you have ASD, even mild, it might effect how you understand and process questions. That’s fairly typical. In my line of work I see it all the time.
Everyone will just answer questions, right or wrong but person with ASD would understand it was something else. Sometimes understanding it too literally. It doesn’t matter how smart you are, you might just not grasp nuances.

Whew, thank you for this.

Originally Posted by divine1966

I don’t condone lying though

Me neither.

Originally Posted by divine1966

What I don’t undersrand is how can psychiatrists not understand why you answer questions the way you do?

My therapist is as stymied as you...and me. One question I run into on a test keeps coming back to me as I write this. It is, "Have people told you that you sleepwalk?" The answer is 'true' - I have absolutely been told that before. But the truth of the matter is that in each case they told me that, it was an alter up in the middle of the night before we shared co-consciousness. When she shared her memories with me, I remembered. There are actually a fair amount of questions like this that I face - where the true answer paints a different picture than the reality of the situation.

In a structured interview, I can explain that. On a true false questionnaire, I can't. So, I don't ever know what to do.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by here today

Also think the QM way of looking the world could be useful to psychology. But that's another thread.

Oh my goodness, me too!

Originally Posted by here today

To your situation, then. . . You could use a diagnosis but the measuring instruments aren't capable of providing it. They (or the humans using them) assume that the measuring instruments can -- you showed the guy that was wrong, falsified his theory, and he was pissed, not interested. A very non-scientific, non-Asperger (and non-me, too, even though I don't have Asperger's) response.

The measuring instruments are part and parcel of a social institution that requires them in order to qualify you for disability benefits. The measuring instruments are "entangled" with the social institution. Probably no way to disentangle that, given the large macrosopic size and number of people and other factors in that system.

Except, if perhaps?, you could find a licensed psychologist at a university or somewhere who might actually be interested in people and the benefits and limitations of psychometrics? Someone whom you can interest and connect (entangle somewhat?) with, and who can then provide a more reliable measurement of some sort? Anybody whose work you find decent in any research you have done on psychometrics?

I am going to look deeper into this. You've given me some food for thought. Thank you.

Out of curiosity, have you ever done the rapid fire question game with anyone?

One person quickly asks the other totally random questions, and the person being asked has to respond right away without thinking about their answer. They'll be asked another question immediately afterward to keep them on their toes, and they can't ask for clarification of a question they had been asked. They can only give answers.

It's like the bridge scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail when Sir Galahad is asked his favorite color and instantly replies with the answer he had just heard someone else give, thus failing the test since it wasn't his favorite. He answered without thinking.

When my friends would play it they would try to fool each other by slipping embarrassing questions into the mix. If the person being asked didn't catch themselves in time they'd blurt out an answer that they otherwise would not have divulged.

Why I ask if you've played it is because if you have a tendency to overthink questions before being able to respond, maybe if you answer with that first gut instinct before the overthinking can begin than you could avoid some of the difficulties? Like in the example you described of the five presidents, would your immediate gut answer have been to think of the last 5 US presidents but then to ask for clarification to verify the precise details of the questions?

If you haven't played that rapid fire question game I wonder how you would do with it. It could perhaps be something worthwhile trying, just to see if it is possible.

[yagr]

Originally Posted by nextstep_butwhat

Out of curiosity, have you ever done the rapid fire question game with anyone?

No.

Originally Posted by nextstep_butwhat

Why I ask if you've played it is because if you have a tendency to overthink questions before being able to respond, maybe if you answer with that first gut instinct before the overthinking can begin than you could avoid some of the difficulties?

I know that you are trying to help, and I sincerely appreciate that. However, in an effort to practice self care and be kind to myself, I try to point out, at moments like this, that there isn't a standard for the correct amount of thinking. What one person calls 'overthinking', someone else might call 'underthinking'. While I don't believe for a moment that you were trying to do so, I've been shamed, ridiculed, bullied, and beat for what others call over-thinking and I kind of resist the label.

Originally Posted by nextstep_butwhat

If you haven't played that rapid fire question game I wonder how you would do with it. It could perhaps be something worthwhile trying, just to see if it is possible.

I don't know, but I suspect that two things would happen that might not happen to other folks. On some of the questions I would simply freeze because I don't understand the question. An example that comes to mind is, "How do you feel?" My first response when I came up with the question was, "Touch". Then the realization that that was too literal. Then the question: "Wait, do they mean physically or emotionally?" The second thing would be that I would answer like I answered my doctor described in a post three before this one: "What brings you in today?" and "My car."

[divine1966]

Since you have DID and ASD these type of questions aren’t suitable but are there any other type of evaluations you need to undergo in order to get SSI? It can’t be the only type of test?

I am at loss here. I’ve met people (primarily adolescents but also adults) with every possible disability and I have never met a person who answers to “what brought you here?” with “a car” unless they were trying to make a joke. Some would say something similar in
wrong situations when joke is uncalled for but I have never met a person who’d answer like this seriously. I am at loss.