[hartbroken]

I came across an article on the difference between sociopaths and psychopaths. They are really similar, except the sociopath is due to environmental factors, and the psychopath is due to genetics.

Both are due to something they couldn't help. The environmental factors that affect the sociopath are trauma and abuse. The genetics that affect the psychopath is a lesion in the brain, affecting the ability to have a moral compass of right and wrong. Both lack much of a conscience because of these factors.

If people could understand WHY others act the way they do, like a genetic lesion in a psychopath's brain, we have to ask, "Does this person have any personal blame for the defect? I say no, and that their actions as a result aren't all their fault.

I'd like to hear others chime in.

[bathroomscrubber]

I fully agree! None of us can take or should take personal blame for any genetic defects. We did not cause them to be there. As with any defects, I don't think blame should be taken. It's the actions we take and make that I am still up in arms about. I do not have either of these, however with what I do have, I've often heard my actions were because of my disorders. I still feel responsibility is mine to own. Even the things I detest most and were completely out of my norm.

My main concern regarding the word "psychopath" is that it's often confused with psychosis (a loss of contact with reality). Psychopaths are very much in contact with reality. However, I do realize that a psychopath is believed to have an innate abnormality, hence psychopathy.

Maybe the best answer for my concern is to simply educate the public.

[Trippin2.0]

If you can use your brain to tell logical right from wrong, and understand the rules society has put in place to treat each other humanely and ultimately survive as a species, whether you agree with them or not, whether you can feel remorse or not, then yes, I believe you are responsible for your actions, lesions or trauma and all.


If you know stealing or killing is bad, wrong, illegal or whatever, and you choose to proceed anyway because it makes no difference to you (no remorse, no conscience) then you are still responsible for your actions.


Just because something can be explained does not mean it should be excused.

I watched a TED Talk that said about 1% of the population would be considered psychopaths if they went to a psychiatrist, but it's estimated (by a man named Johnson who claims to be an expert on psychopaths) that 4% of the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies would be considered psychopaths if they went to a psychiatrist.

Thus it seems that there is a correlation between psychopathy and capitalism.

[bathroomscrubber]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

If you can use your brain to tell logical right from wrong, and understand the rules society has put in place to treat each other humanely and ultimately survive as a species, whether you agree with them or not, whether you can feel remorse or not, then yes, I believe you are responsible for your actions, lesions or trauma and all.


If you know stealing or killing is bad, wrong, illegal or whatever, and you choose to proceed anyway because it makes no difference to you (no remorse, no conscience) then you are still responsible for your actions.


Just because something can be explained does not mean it should be excused.

I agree with what you are saying. I don't think the problem itself is something blame can be bestowed. The actions yes. However, there are yet other disorders whereas logic does not play a factor. There is no logic or knowledge of right from wrong whether taught or not. Do you feel they are responsible for their actions?

[Trippin2.0]

Is that a trick question?


Re:read my post and you'll find I have already answered

[bathroomscrubber]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

Is that a trick question?


Re:read my post and you'll find I have already answered

You did. I apologize.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk

[Trippin2.0]

No worries

[Crypts_Of_The_Mind]

Here's my take on it: They still have the ability to make fully cognitive decisions. They know completely what it is they are doing and why they are doing it. They also know the consequences of their actions.

One of the symptoms is no remorse and just general lack of caring. To me, that would also say they do not care about the laws or repercussions of breaking those laws. That being said, does that mean that it should also not matter to the rest of society or that we should in some manner overlook it or consider it to be "more understandable" given they do not care about these things? I don't think so.

To me, to put it in a very simplistic manner that would be much like excusing a young child who doesn't care when his mom says "no, don't do that!", nor does he care that it will harm the other child - but is only thinking he wants that toy, so he pushes and hits the other child til he gets the toy from the other child. Most parents wouldn't excuse this type of behavior and if you were the parents of the other child I don't know of any person that would excuse it. Why then, should we excuse even worse behavior from a grown adult based on the same symptoms, regardless of their cause? An adult understands the difference of right and wrong, a child does not - yet we would then be somehow expecting more out of our children than our adults. Would you truly see that as being rational or correct?

I view the terms as interchangeable.

I believe a psychopath has a personality disorder, and I would put the personality disorder on a spectrum.

Specifically, I would say the personality disorder is narcissism

I agree. They are responsible for their actions and need to be held as such for their actions. I was fulltime mom to my sociotpathic stepson. I pleaded for the schools, the law, and his father to hold him accountable. As long as I had no help my efforts were useless. The term sociopath was used to describe him as early as his young teens. Schools, counsellors, doctors and even the law suggested their worries as such. But none of them would help me do anything. NO ONE held him accountable - until the night he woke me up waving a military jungle knife and the police finally responded to my pleas to arrest him.

[Crypts_Of_The_Mind]

Thanks for sharing your experience rcat, I am sure that was not easy.

sorry folks this just hit a trigger for my memories of a rather difficult stage of my life - one during which I felt very alone.

But to contribute to the discussion, I do not believe we shouldn't hold either accountable. One may be calculating and think out his/her transgressions ahead of time while the other may be more spontaneous, but they still both KNOW what they are doing is wrong. While neither are likely to show remorse they WILL be very upset at having been caught - proof to me that they knew what they were doing in the first place.

In reference to my earlier post I guess the message I was trying to advance is that we MUST take action - no matter the age - when we see the signs of alarming behaviour significantly marked by a lack of accompanying empathy.

[Crypts_Of_The_Mind]

Originally Posted by rcat

sorry folks this just hit a trigger for my memories of a rather difficult stage of my life - one during which I felt very alone.

But to contribute to the discussion, I do not believe we shouldn't hold either accountable. One may be calculating and think out his/her transgressions ahead of time while the other may be more spontaneous, but they still both KNOW what they are doing is wrong. While neither are likely to show remorse they WILL be very upset at having been caught - proof to me that they knew what they were doing in the first place.

In reference to my earlier post I guess the message I was trying to advance is that we MUST take action - no matter the age - when we see the signs of alarming behaviour significantly marked by a lack of accompanying empathy.

I did not take your previous post badly and I understood the overall message, I just appreciated the fact you shared such a personal story. Sorry if my comment seemed otherwise *hugs*

[seeker1950]

I had a very bad experience with someone I now believe fits the diagnosis of psychopath. One of the things I've learned in researching since, is that the psychopath (and sociopath as well) are very convincing manipulators, can mimic all the rhetoric, they've learned over the years, of being a productive, caring, and even empathetic human. I watched a very informative video on youtube just this past week by the man who formulated the "Psychopath Test," in which he was working with hardened criminals, the worst of the worst. Hearing some of these men talk, they sounded so normal, while speaking at the same time of their horrendous crimes as if talking about a grocery list.
I'll see if I can find the link.

[bathroomscrubber]

Originally Posted by seeker1950

I had a very bad experience with someone I now believe fits the diagnosis of psychopath. One of the things I've learned in researching since, is that the psychopath (and sociopath as well) are very convincing manipulators, can mimic all the rhetoric, they've learned over the years, of being a productive, caring, and even empathetic human. I watched a very informative video on youtube just this past week by the man who formulated the "Psychopath Test," in which he was working with hardened criminals, the worst of the worst. Hearing some of these men talk, they sounded so normal, while speaking at the same time of their horrendous crimes as if talking about a grocery list.
I'll see if I can find the link.

I think I lived with a few. They are very good at making you feel everything was your fault. And not reacting to a thing when you beg forgiveness or show fear. But if you decide you have had enough and decide to leave and they need you for something, they will play the I love you need you card even beg sometimes succeeding in somehow making it your fault until they don't need you anymore, or they realize you are serious. Then they just walk away like it doesn't matter. Like you never mattered

[Crypts_Of_The_Mind]

Originally Posted by bathroomscrubber

I think I lived with a few. They are very good at making you feel everything was your fault. And not reacting to a thing when you beg forgiveness or show fear. But if you decide you have had enough and decide to leave and they need you for something, they will play the I love you need you card even beg sometimes succeeding in somehow making it your fault until they don't need you anymore, or they realize you are serious. Then they just walk away like it doesn't matter. Like you never mattered

Sometimes, they will become violent because you are taking away their control and ruining their facade too - so it all depends on how violent the psycho/socio-path is.

[seeker1950]

Originally Posted by bathroomscrubber

I think I lived with a few. They are very good at making you feel everything was your fault. And not reacting to a thing when you beg forgiveness or show fear. But if you decide you have had enough and decide to leave and they need you for something, they will play the I love you need you card even beg sometimes succeeding in somehow making it your fault until they don't need you anymore, or they realize you are serious. Then they just walk away like it doesn't matter. Like you never mattered

Yes. well, bathroomscrubber, I would describe that as a sociopath, and I've known those too. The psychopath really is a criminal capable of appalling acts, feeling no remorse whatsoever. For some reason, I attracted both. I think it was my empathetic nature, and my willingness to invest in a person despite lackings. It cost me big time.

Long story, but I'll try to be brief...Just after my divorce from an unhappy brother-sister type unfulfilling 20 year marriage, I had my own little house in a subdivision, where a young man, age 32 (I was 47), kept coming by as I was outside working in my landscaping. He was persistent, telling me his story of addiction, his recovery, how he was now on the right track. He made very aggressive romantic overtures to which I responded. I know how stupid I was now, but at the time, all I can say is I was vulnerable after so long without emotional contact with a man. It evolved quickly, and he moved in with me. His mother, much like him actually, told me addicts are "very good" at finding places to live. He began stealing $ from me early on. Seemed not to be remorseful at all. I even gave him one of my cars, DUH. He took the car out at Christmas to do shopping for my present and didn't return. He picked up a young underage girl at the mall and took her to a motel plying her with beer. Again, no remorse. I kicked him out.

During the brief time he was living with me, I attended his AA meetings, watching him do his "thing." He would give speeches during the share sessions in which he was so articulate, evoking such compassion from the other members, including me. He really knew how to "talk the talk." But after kicking him out, he started stalking me, incessantly. I went to the police, but received little help. One night, he came to my house, broke thru my patio door with a rock, with a gun he had stolen from his parents' house, and chased me out into the neighbor's driveway trying to shoot me. The only reason I'm still alive is that the gun jammed. I really think he had committed murder prior to my knowing him, just from some of the things he had said while I was around him. The courts made me wear a beeper, and informed me of his activity, state of probation for years afterward. It's a wonder I didn't lose my job. Now, if I were in the same situation, I have no doubt I would have.

I'm ashamed to this day that I was so gullible, but one thing about the psychopath that is true, and which I firmly believe, is that they are consummate skilled con artists, and many intelligent people fall prey to them.

[here today]

Originally Posted by hartbroken

I came across an article on the difference between sociopaths and psychopaths. They are really similar, except the sociopath is due to environmental factors, and the psychopath is due to genetics.

Both are due to something they couldn't help. The environmental factors that affect the sociopath are trauma and abuse. The genetics that affect the psychopath is a lesion in the brain, affecting the ability to have a moral compass of right and wrong. Both lack much of a conscience because of these factors.

If people could understand WHY others act the way they do, like a genetic lesion in a psychopath's brain, we have to ask, "Does this person have any personal blame for the defect? I say no, and that their actions as a result aren't all their fault.

I'd like to hear others chime in.

The way I think about things there’s a difference between blame and accountability. Blame is a social judgment that there’s a fault with a person or what they did. Accountability means capable of being explained or accounted for. There are two ways that somebody can account for their actions – the social, based on the effects of their actions on others, and the psychological or motivational, based on what is going on inside a person, and they are different.

It’s not just a matter of cognitively knowing or deciding what is “right” or “wrong”. There are lots of times where it’s not so clear, there are lots of shades of gray. Life is complicated. From what I understand – cognitively, because I don’t know from my own experience – psychopaths and sociopaths lack a reliable sense of remorse and compassion. Yet they, like everybody, have to make decisions every day about how they will live their lives and get what they want and need.

I think it would be very dangerous for society if we did not require that psychopaths and sociopaths be held accountable for the social consequences of their actions. Nevertheless, in a way I am lucky. I experience guilt when I hurt someone and I experience it just thinking about doing something that would hurt someone. So I am less likely to do something that would have adverse social consequences, with the problems that could cause for me, too, than a sociopath or some psychopaths would. My cognition gets a lot of help from my emotions, which isn’t necessarily the case with psychopaths and sociopaths.

Sociopaths and psychopaths aren’t to blame for their “handicaps”. But they can endanger others in society and so I think it is realistic to accept them as they are. From what I understand, current psychotherapy is not very helpful so I hope some more can be learned about these disorders and maybe ways can be found to help these people get and find what they want without hurting other people. I think that could benefit everybody.

[bathroomscrubber]

Originally Posted by here today

The way I think about things there’s a difference between blame and accountability. Blame is a social judgment that there’s a fault with a person or what they did. Accountability means capable of being explained or accounted for. There are two ways that somebody can account for their actions – the social, based on the effects of their actions on others, and the psychological or motivational, based on what is going on inside a person, and they are different.

It’s not just a matter of cognitively knowing or deciding what is “right” or “wrong”. There are lots of times where it’s not so clear, there are lots of shades of gray. Life is complicated. From what I understand – cognitively, because I don’t know from my own experience – psychopaths and sociopaths lack a reliable sense of remorse and compassion. Yet they, like everybody, have to make decisions every day about how they will live their lives and get what they want and need.

I think it would be very dangerous for society if we did not require that psychopaths and sociopaths be held accountable for the social consequences of their actions. Nevertheless, in a way I am lucky. I experience guilt when I hurt someone and I experience it just thinking about doing something that would hurt someone. So I am less likely to do something that would have adverse social consequences, with the problems that could cause for me, too, than a sociopath or some psychopaths would. My cognition gets a lot of help from my emotions, which isn’t necessarily the case with psychopaths and sociopaths.

Sociopaths and psychopaths aren’t to blame for their “handicaps”. But they can endanger others in society and so I think it is realistic to accept them as they are. From what I understand, current psychotherapy is not very helpful so I hope some more can be learned about these disorders and maybe ways can be found to help these people get and find what they want without hurting other people. I think that could benefit everybody.

Amen. Very well said

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What happens when two psycho/sociopaths meet? Are they attracted to one another? Or do they need to be around people who are caring so they can suck the life right out of them?

[seeker1950]

Originally Posted by Torntwopcs

What happens when two psycho/sociopaths meet? Are they attracted to one another? Or do they need to be around people who are caring so they can suck the life right out of them?

That's what I experienced. Like an emotional vampire!

[Crypts_Of_The_Mind]

Originally Posted by Torntwopcs

What happens when two psycho/sociopaths meet? Are they attracted to one another? Or do they need to be around people who are caring so they can suck the life right out of them?

Sociopaths "mimic" the behaviors of society to gain trust of an individual. For another psychopath or sociopath, that wouldn't work - because things simply have no emotional value to them (from my understanding).

Psychopaths - don't neccessarily even try to form a relationship of any kind (even as far as "friendship"), so this would be almost inapplicable to the psychopath, but for those that do get in relationships - they would only be attracted to someone they felt they could manipulate or control, which would not fit the description of another psychopath or sociopath so psychopaths would not be in a relationship with another psycho/socio-path either (in my opinion).

[here today]

James Fallon is a neuroscientist who discovered late in his life that he had the brain scan of a psychopath. He had a very good childhood, a nurturing mother who noticed that he was "weird" but loved him anyway, is married, has 3 children, never got in trouble with the law.

Here's an article describing it's like to be (his version of) a psychopath in his own words:

The devil you know: inside the world of a psychopathic scientist | The Verge