[AlteredState01]

Do you believe it is the mind that wants to keep you in your illness, or your heart?

I know it's a rather peculiar question, but it is one that I often think about...

Sure would appreciate some thoughtful comments.

[SeptemberMorn]

IMO, it is the mind that makes us not progress or learn how to cope with our illnesses. It's fear of the unknown, maybe? Our thoughts cause our emotions.

The only thing I know for a fact is that depression and anxiety are caused by an imbalance of chemicals in the brain. The imbalance causes the emotions and the emotions cause us fear as in anxiety. Anxiety can cause agoraphobia and many other things, but aren't they just emotions that cause us to act or react in certain ways? Depression causes us to feel worthless and that there is no point to much of anything.

My daughter is Bordeline and she sees me as an addiction. She's afraid of me... or rather, afraid that she'll be sucked in and overpowered by me much like an alcoholic is by booze. I'm not sure if that's a chemical imbalance, too. But again, it's fear that keeps her from talking to me or having any kind of a relationship with me.

[Rhapsody]

I believe it is the mind that keeps one in their illness, for it has not yet released the wounds that are gathered together.

One must connect both the intellectual and emotional side of the mind (at the same time) in order to release old wounds.

[mrsmoggles]

Definitely the mind. The mind is capable of such terrible deeds. Even when our heart is happy, the mind will try to sabotage any good thing.Doubt, hurt, pain, fear, apathy...all fired or misfired by the synapses of the brain. Just my opinion though. ~ Melanie

[Rhapsody]

Deleted....... mis-read last post.

[curley]

They say our mind can be our own worst enemy and I believe that. I think the heart feels whatever goes into it. Pleasure or pain. But my thoughts, my brain, go to places I do not need or want to be. This is when I have to get busy with something or I will make myself lose it. Altered, you said this may be a peculiar post, but actually it was a very good thing to think about. Thank you.

[Perna]

I think both the mind and heart help with the illness rather than hinder; we "pick" our symptoms based on our genetics, background, experience and temperments so how we experience our illness is truly "peronal". I don't think anyone who deliberately "stays" a certain way, doesn't try to get "better" in any way is truly ill but just is getting more by being how they are than not. Just like how some people enjoy challenges and "thrills" and bungie jump off bridges or skydive or something, I think there are people who are more comfortable "using" others than dealing with the difficulty and scariness of doing things for themselves. I don't think they're "ill," they just get more from being "sick" than from working on getting well. That's fine (as long as they don't try to use me :-)

[AlteredState01]

Perna, could you reiterate what you said? I don't quite understand...

Thanks

[nowheretorun]

Perna, is it ok if that person uses others, just not you?

[Perna]

No one can stay in the same place; it takes work to get well or not get well. One's body/self is working to "survive" and that takes work, whether we're consciously part of it or not. I gained a lot of weight in order to function socially (because of my anxiety, difficult for me) for example. My body did all that without "Me" consciously saying yes or no. When we are "stimulated" we respond, intuitively.

I do not believe one can deliberately stay in one's illness unless one "decides" to in some way because the illness/symptom/whatever is helpful to one. My gross obesity is not something my head or heart wants but my body did the best it could to help me function (and did a wonderful, creative, imaginative job of it!). None of us are "simple" and there's lots of issues, not all of which we're even aware of, that have to be constantly weighed and adjusted to end up with what we've got.

"Attacking" one's self, deciding one's head or heart or body or whatever is wrong, bad, not helpful, causing us trouble, etc. is, to me, a subtle form of self-abuse. One cannot be against one's self! Whatever one is doing is "for" one's self, for one's survival. It might seem misguided or a bad idea (my overweight is a health hazard but it bought me time to solve my mental/emotional/heart problems) to another part of us but it's like a person with DID's alters; they're all needed by that person.

Turning from attack of body (I'm fat and ugly) or head (I'm stupid, I'll never get a job/life), or heart (I'm a loser, no one could possibly like much less love me) to facing outward and trusting; yea verily, relying on one's body, head, and heart to help one is the route I am trying to go.

But, there are some people who get "enough" of what they want that they don't see any reason to work at doing things some other way. That doesn't mean they don't want more (who doesn't :-) but just that the "seesaw" is balanced enough so they're not in enough "pain" or have enough interest in doing things differently.

Nowhere, I can only ever take care of myself. Another adult using a third adult is beyond my purview :-) What I "see" happening to other people may or may not be what is actually happening and/or they may be kinky and like what's happening :-) I don't know. But merely complaining about being used (and not working or making an effort to stop it if you are the person complaining) doesn't galvanize me into action. It's not "okay" necessarily, meaning I don't like seeing it, but if the person being used is an adult out in the general society, I probably won't say/do anything.

[nowheretorun]

thanks Perna, i just didnt understand ... its weird to me, ive known some people, really nice people, who knew they were dysfunctional, in codependant relationships, etc, and they chose to remain in them and stay the way they were...

happy being dysfunctional i suppose... hard for me to fathom... but, like i'm normal or something...

the thing was, i watched them emotionally abuse their children.. but everyone was laughing, like good times..

the kids have grown and now of course have serious complexes of their own... very sad in the larger picture..

[50guy]

I will give the short answer.....YES.

[foreverhope_]

Dear Altered, I believe, it is the mind. I must admit, I've never thought about the heart, though. During a broken heart, I believe it's my mind that made my heart feel so ill. I believe it is my mind that controls me now.

~~ Jasmin

[foreverhope_]

P, he asked a question for a very simple answer.

[AlteredState01]

Um, I'm a "she," not a "he," fyi.

[AlteredState01]

So, my mind is keeping me ill, my heart is breaking because of it, so it's my instinct that is actually keeping me alive then!

Huh... stupid instincts... (joking, sort of).

There is one more peculiar thing about how I experience my illness.

When my mind is quiet, and my heart, calm, I am usually physically ill in some way. Like stomach spasms, or headaches or general aches and pains. Nothing too serious, really, but generally enough to annoy.

Does anyone else experience their illness like this?

If something/someone is getting me upset, then I sometimes have all three happening in tandem, but that is not unusual, especially if it hits me fast.

I am sure this is not unusual to have pain move from mental to emotional to physical, but I do notice that there never really is an escape of any sort. I will feel my illness regardless. (Well, of course, it's not like my brain is going to magically grow new neural networks to change how I feel just because I want it).

I understand what you are saying, Perna, and I agree. I see it in myself at times...ok, maybe a little more than "at times." (Not going to admit to more than that - it's just too embarassing to ) There is no denying there is a certain comfort that can be found within one's illness.

In my case, I think it has to do with not allowing myself to get too happy or content, because it is so extremely disappointing to lose that feeling. Since I also suffer from histrionic tendencies, the pain is that much more acute. And dangerous, too, because of the ritualistic behaviours that will follow.

So, I guess it's settled then... I am completely crazy!!!

[AlteredState01]

A tad too short, 50guy! The question is an either / or question.

[Rapunzel]

In DBT they teach about the emotional mind and the logical mind. Maybe the emotional mind is analogous to the heart in this discussion. Either of the above can get you into trouble if you operate from logic alone or emotions alone. Then there is a balance that you can strive for, the "wise mind." So, the way I interpret this is that there are parts of the mind (or heart) that might keep us ill, but that also have a lot to offer us. When we balance those parts and get them to work together, then we are healthier.

[AlteredState01]

You know, if it's all about "chemical reactions," then how come drugs don't work?

Theoretically, if we re-balance the chemicals in our brain, we should be able to make significant strides when we set our mind to do so.

Yet, drugs do not work for me. So there has GOT to be something else goin' on, don't you think?

[Perna]

I think a lot of the problem is that "we" don't know much yet about brain chemicals and how they work and/or the effects of heart, head, and body on all that too. One can think one's self different and we know if we eat (chemical technically) better/differently that has effects and exercising, emotions, etc.

My asthma gets better/worse often when there's nothing I can see happening differently but stress/anxiety seems to fluctuate a bit too closely to it to get me to say there's nothing to either the asthma reacting to the stress or versa vice! :-)

I think when I'm thinking bad thoughts, I'd have to say my head is keeping me down and when I'm feeling bad, my emotions? The other night (in the middle thereof :-) I recognied I was anxious/agitated for no reason and things that I don't normally even see, much less are bothered by, were bothering me and making me more anxious. I saw dust above the door on the frame there and you'd think I was in my death bed and sure no one would come to comfort me before I went! My present and future filth and decay flashed before my eyes and that was all there was; no love, hope, pleasure, cleanliness, godliness, etc. All the good stuff was swept away.

But, one thing I have going for me now is I recognize such states as "not real"/not important (?) and can wait them out. I imagine it's like seeing hallucinations and knowing they're hallucinations. If it hadn't been the middle of the night I might have gotten up and cleaned the dust off the door frame (it's still there, I'd forgotten it again until just now) and that would have comforted me a tiny bit (but something else would have taken its place. That whole day I was on edge and little things were bothering me but it took "dust" on a door frame I don't normally even notice to cue me that the whole antsy thing was not "normal."

Short answer? I'd say it's my feelings/emotions that cause me the most trouble because my head more often has a grip on reality. Sure I can take a leap of faith with my emotions and override my head occasionally but it's usually my feelings that try to keep me stuck?

[50guy]

My answer is yes to both.

[Perna]

Yes to both
Neither is no
I won't have a maybe
Don't call me a no show
You asked me a question
I've answered you twice
My answer is "yes"
Give it up's my advice.

My mind... I do believe... and my heart is broken... because my mind is "shattered"... into alters... so for me it is very clear..... it is not my heart that is shattered,,it is my mind...

my mind... the fear.. can cause my body to react... and meds... cannot "fix".. a shattered mind... my opinion....

meds.. can.. help my mind.. control fear... so that my body.. does not react....to the signals that my mind sends out...