[Esmme]

I know this sounds dramatic, but it feels so, so true right now.

Recently, I had an issue with someone being transphobic towards me in private messages to my friends. (This is on another site) So I brought it to the staff, who promptly banned me on the idea that me telling them someone is transphobic is "slander".

Before that, I had questioned one of the staff's character because they were best friends with said transphobic person. This led to me being verbally assaulted by their friends and me being told, "You can't judge people based on who they are friends with". Which, I completely disagree with.

Before *that* even, I told someone that I believe that people who actively harm the LGBTQ+ community are similar (if not the same) as Nazis, to which I was told that that was an "insult". :/ They got extremely angry with me that I would compare the trans genocide in the USA to the Holocaust. And I agreed, a direct comparison can't be made, but they can be compared in the sense that they are both BAD. But that didn't stop them from getting angry at me...

It just feels like everything I say ends up making someone mad. Like, everyone hates me over these things... I feel awful because I honestly don't think I did anything particularly "wrong" to deserve being treated like this. It feels like everyone is mad at me and I can't do anything to change their minds...

[Pflowers]

I personally do not feel that the word holocaust belongs exclusively to the Jewish community.

I'll probably get dragged for that, but it's okay ...

The Native Americans experienced a holocaust by Europeans in my humble opinion ...

It may not have been on the exact same scale, but to me it was a holocaust for them nonetheless.

I've oft referred to my childhood experiences as my own personal holocaust.

Anytime a person or group of people is systematically targeted to be completely annihilated simply because of who or what they are THAT IS A HOLOCAUST for them ... Period!

If anyone takes offense to that, I'm sorry, but it's the absolute truth!

With all that being said, unfortunately we cannot make anybody love or care about us, and the haters are always gonna be out there, so ...

The best thing we can do is learn to love ourselves and practice a lot of self-care accordingly.

[felineangel]

i don't hate you

[Esmme]

Originally Posted by Pflower

I personally do not feel that the word holocaust belongs exclusively to the Jewish community.

I'll probably get dragged for that, but it's okay ...

The Native Americans experienced a holocaust by Europeans in my humble opinion ...

It may not have been on the exact same scale, but to me it was a holocaust for them nonetheless.

I've oft referred to my childhood experiences as my own personal holocaust.

Anytime a person or group of people is systematically targeted to be completely annihilated simply because of who or what they are THAT IS A HOLOCAUST for them ... Period!

If anyone takes offense to that, I'm sorry, but it's the absolute truth!

With all that being said, unfortunately we cannot make anybody love or care about us, and the haters are always gonna be out there, so ...

The best thing we can do is learn to love ourselves and practice a lot of self-care accordingly.

I completely agree. I also feel like the Holocaust was not the only major genocide in the world. The people I was talking to had an attitude like, "Nothing is worse than the Holocaust". But there have been plenty of genocides that were just as bad, if not WORSE than the Holocaust.

And I completely agree too. When people are systematically targeted, it's the same tactics that the Nazi propaganda used. Every time.

Thanks for the reassurance.
I just feel so terrible lately... I know I didn't do anything wrong, but it feels like everyone is mad at me for some reason or whatever and I can't do anything to make them see me any different....

[Esmme]

Originally Posted by felineangel

i don't hate you

Thank you

[Fuzzybear]

[eskielover]

The problem is that attacking those who disagree with your thinking is attacking & hating too. If the only people you like & don't call "transphobic" are people who think like you, you are also adding hate to the mix & thatbis not good for anyone either. Just because someone does not agree with your thinking does not make them transphobic. One can tolerate others personal choices without agreeing with them. That does not make them transphobic. That approach with people is what creates a hate environment no matter who or what they are on either side of the discussion

[Bill3]

Recently, I had an issue with someone being transphobic towards me in private messages to my friends. (This is on another site) So I brought it to the staff, who promptly banned me on the idea that me telling them someone is transphobic is "slander".

Possibly another option for handling this situation might have been to specifically object to the comments, without labeling someone "transphobic".

I just feel so terrible lately... I know I didn't do anything wrong, but it feels like everyone is mad at me for some reason or whatever and I can't do anything to make them see me any different....

I'm really sorry that you are feeling so bad.

If I could make a suggestion: In the three situations, your response was to apply a broad label to someone: "transphobic", "question character", "Nazi".

My suggestion is to avoid using broad labels. Instead, precisely target your responses to the specific situation at hand. For example: "These comments are hurtful to me", "Why do you support these policies?", "Your suggestion treats LGBTQ+ people unfairly".

If someone were to call you straightphobic/bad character/Nazi, how open would you be to calm, rational discussion with them?

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Pflower

I personally do not feel that the word holocaust belongs exclusively to the Jewish community.

I'll probably get dragged for that, but it's okay ...

The Native Americans experienced a holocaust by Europeans in my humble opinion ...

It may not have been on the exact same scale, but to me it was a holocaust for them nonetheless.

I've oft referred to my childhood experiences as my own personal holocaust.

Anytime a person or group of people is systematically targeted to be completely annihilated simply because of who or what they are THAT IS A HOLOCAUST for them ... Period!

If anyone takes offense to that, I'm sorry, but it's the absolute truth!

With all that being said, unfortunately we cannot make anybody love or care about us, and the haters are always gonna be out there, so ...

The best thing we can do is learn to love ourselves and practice a lot of self-care accordingly.

Are you referring to a term genocide? You are correct that horrific treatment of Native Americans, Holocaust (Jews call it Shoah), Rwandan genocide , Khmer Rouge and many others are all examples of genocides. Not sure where you are going with the use of term Holocaust in regards to your personal childhood experience, but you are right that genocides are not just Jewish experiences and no one ever said they are

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Esmme

I know this sounds dramatic, but it feels so, so true right now.

Recently, I had an issue with someone being transphobic towards me in private messages to my friends. (This is on another site) So I brought it to the staff, who promptly banned me on the idea that me telling them someone is transphobic is "slander".

Before that, I had questioned one of the staff's character because they were best friends with said transphobic person. This led to me being verbally assaulted by their friends and me being told, "You can't judge people based on who they are friends with". Which, I completely disagree with.

Before *that* even, I told someone that I believe that people who actively harm the LGBTQ+ community are similar (if not the same) as Nazis, to which I was told that that was an "insult". :/ They got extremely angry with me that I would compare the trans genocide in the USA to the Holocaust. And I agreed, a direct comparison can't be made, but they can be compared in the sense that they are both BAD. But that didn't stop them from getting angry at me...

It just feels like everything I say ends up making someone mad. Like, everyone hates me over these things... I feel awful because I honestly don't think I did anything particularly "wrong" to deserve being treated like this. It feels like everyone is mad at me and I can't do anything to change their minds...

It’s important to stand up for what we believe. But it might be better to avoid broad generalized and harsh labels, it alienates people.

If you want to educate people on how to treat others, you might consider approaching it less harshly.

No need to call people Nazis or compare different events using harsh labels etc. you’ll achieve more by calmly explaining to people where you stand on the matter. No one will change their mind after being called a Nazi. And there is no particularly good reason to bring Holocaust to a conversation about transphobia- horrid things but no need to compare

I doubt people hate you but if you frequently insult others, they’ll start distancing themselves from you

[Fuzzybear]

Originally Posted by Bill3

Possibly another option for handling this situation might have been to specifically object to the comments, without labeling someone "transphobic".


I'm really sorry that you are feeling so bad.

If I could make a suggestion: In the three situations, your response was to apply a broad label to someone: "transphobic", "question character", "Nazi".

My suggestion is to avoid using broad labels. Instead, precisely target your responses to the specific situation at hand. For example: "These comments are hurtful to me", "Why do you support these policies?", "Your suggestion treats LGBTQ+ people unfairly".

If someone were to call you straightphobic/bad character/Nazi, how open would you be to calm, rational discussion with them?

Good post

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Esmme

I completely agree. I also feel like the Holocaust was not the only major genocide in the world. The people I was talking to had an attitude like, "Nothing is worse than the Holocaust". But there have been plenty of genocides that were just as bad, if not WORSE than the Holocaust.

And I completely agree too. When people are systematically targeted, it's the same tactics that the Nazi propaganda used. Every time.

Thanks for the reassurance.
I just feel so terrible lately... I know I didn't do anything wrong, but it feels like everyone is mad at me for some reason or whatever and I can't do anything to make them see me any different....

No Holocaust isn’t the only genocide in the world. Anyone who knows anything about history would know about other genocides.

Having said that, there’s no reason to argue with people what’s worse than what. There’s no need to tell people that Holocaust wasn’t the worst event-everyone has unique experience and perhaps you are telling it to people who lost everyone in their family in a gas chamber in a concentration camp or burned alive and buried in a mass grave with no trace.. There’s no need to compare events. For this particular person it might be the worst but you are potentially insulting them for no reason. You are triggering their pain by making declarations that have no value. Why?

How well do you know these people that you feel you could say these things to them? It’s like saying to descendants of slaves that slavery wasn’t the worst, there are worse events out there. Why would you compare and say such things?

No need to generalize or call people names like saying they are like Nazis

You said you can’t change anything. You can. Change how you talk to people.

[unaluna]

Besides which, its kind of an internet meme that if in an argument you compare the other person to Hitler unfavorably, you automatically lose.

Its called Godwin's Law.

[Samicat]

I must comment on the Holocaust word. I am not Jewish but I've read extensively about the Holocaust and it was rather unique in human history - not because of how many people were killed, but because of the intellectualized and "scientific" nature of the torture and murder employed. To work someone to death rather than just put them to death is cold and cruel to begin with, but if you look at the terminology the Nazis used, the way they spoke even of children, and the extent and bureaucracy of the death machinery, the fact that humans were experimented on in labs and treated worse than rats- there was a COLDNESS and detachment not often seen in genocide. We analyzed some of the Third Reich memos about the camps in one of my linguistics classes - the language would chill your soul because it was like they were talking about salt shakers or widgets not humans.

I maintain that the Holocaust was a unique event in human history. It is not appropriate to use the word in any other sense or for any other historical crime. Language matters. Taking away the power of the word is not okay.

[divine1966]

Originally Posted by Samicat

I must comment on the Holocaust word. I am not Jewish but I've read extensively about the Holocaust and it was rather unique in human history - not because of how many people were killed, but because of the intellectualized and "scientific" nature of the torture and murder employed. To work someone to death rather than just put them to death is cold and cruel to begin with, but if you look at the terminology the Nazis used, the way they spoke even of children, and the extent and bureaucracy of the death machinery, the fact that humans were experimented on in labs and treated worse than rats- there was a COLDNESS and detachment not often seen in genocide. We analyzed some of the Third Reich memos about the camps in one of my linguistics classes - the language would chill your soul because it was like they were talking about salt shakers or widgets not humans.

I maintain that the Holocaust was a unique event in human history. It is not appropriate to use the word in any other sense or for any other historical crime. Language matters. Taking away the power of the word is not okay.

Thank you for this post. I greatly appreciate it

[Samicat]

Originally Posted by divine1966

Thank you for this post. I greatly appreciate it

You're welcome. I appreciate your response. I am something of a WWII buff and I've read many, many firsthand accounts of soldiers, POWs, the French Resistance, and of course the Holocaust. It deeply disturbs me that there are factions in the modern world trying to pretend the Holocaust never happened, or to downplay it. I feel like part of why it needs its own word is the recognition of the suffering of countless innocent civilians including women and children, and over six million murdered. Meanwhile the majority of people in "civilized" nations either supported it or did nothing.


This is not playing down any other genocide - just recognizing the biggest one in the western world.

How blatant demonstrations of hate and intolerance have reached 'hip' status in some political circles is something that responsible social scientists should be right on top of. Somehow some think it's now cool to be a fascistic a-hole. I really don't know why more people aren't speaking louder about the extremely dangerous path certain entities are choosing to goose-step down.

All my respect Esmme. Maybe it's best to steer clear of places the moment you sense negative types who may cause you problems. It limits you a little perhaps and but it's maybe the best solution for now. It'll give you some breathing space anyway and time to reflect on other things other than feeling attacked or provoked. It's tough enough living without dealing with people like them.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Besides which, its kind of an internet meme that if in an argument you compare the other person to Hitler unfavorably, you automatically lose.

Its called Godwin's Law.

However...there's nothing wrong with calling them out as blatantly fascist or pseudo-fascist or fascist-like or close-freaking-enough to facist....etc, etc

[eskielover]

Originally Posted by mar dhea

However...there's nothing wrong with calling them out as blatantly fascist or pseudo-fascist or fascist-like or close-freaking-enough to facist....etc, etc

Problem with calling those names it is only your opinion....the other side may see you in the same way. Which side is right? So we get into the "truth is relative" but which relative is right.....they can't both be

[Travelinglady]

I don't hate you either. But people do get upset when they are called names or given labels (even though they might be true.) Folks are entitled to their own opinions. And there is a lot of hatred and viciousness in our world, even worse in the last few years. It doesn't help to confront them, I've found.

I hope your experiences here are better. We have all kinds of folks--and even forums and groups for many of them. Here's the 'address' of our LGBT+ group:

https://mysupportforums.org/lgbtq-support/

Lots of like-minded people!

Originally Posted by eskielover

Problem with calling those names it is only your opinion....the other side may see you in the same way. Which side is right? So we get into the "truth is relative" but which relative is right.....they can't both be

Fascism the ideology and the fascist/fascist-like behaviors stemming from it have been long defined and well enough documented for most [thankfully] to easily recognize. As it stands these days...most can see the problems extant with that ideology and it's never been difficult to see how and where it's fomenting. Never difficult. Long established and ongoing observation by responsible political scientists define what fascist ideology and fascistic ideals/behaviors are Eskie...not opinion.

Originally Posted by unaluna

Besides which, its kind of an internet meme that if in an argument you compare the other person to Hitler unfavorably, you automatically lose.

Its called Godwin's Law.

[SIZE="3"]
Wiki...Mike Godwin

Godwin originated Godwin's law in 1990,[1] stating:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

Godwin believes the ubiquity of such comparisons trivializes the Holocaust, which he finds regrettable.[36][37] He has since made it clear that, in his opinion, the alt-right, especially the participants in the 2017 Charlottesville Unite the Right rally, deserve comparisons to the Nazis.[38]

Yep. Mike knows who's who as well. I'll stand with him any day.

[edit] No disrespect Eskie. I have a serious problem with bullies is all and the typical fascist-fan is a bully. I know the song and stomp when I see it.

[eskielover]

Originally Posted by mar dhea

Fascism the ideology and the fascist/fascist-like behaviors stemming from it have been long defined and well enough documented for most [thankfully] to easily recognize. As it stands these days...most can see the problems extant with that ideology and it's never been difficult to see how and where it's fomenting. Never difficult. Long established and ongoing observation by responsible political scientists define what fascist ideology and fascistic ideals/behaviors are Eskie...not opinion.

Yes but these days terms are thrown around just to call people something & the real meaning is of no importance to them so it has become meaningless

If you think so then that's how you see it. Most recognize where the threat of modern fascism lies and how it manifests. Fascism has never died and many groups/individuals are using it's tenets to this day. That activity has been well documented and has been for decades.

To most that threat isn't 'meaningless'. The origins of modern fascism are well enough documented. Jesus Eskie. It's not difficult to read the stats and history of this stuff in modern democracies since WW2. If you'd like to remain where you are on your stance then carry on. I can't afford the time to run in circles on this.

Originally Posted by eskielover

Yes but these days terms are thrown around just to call people something & the real meaning is of no importance to them so it has become meaningless

I'll leave with a little light reading. MOST are aware of those referred to in this short para. MOST recognize the danger. But as I say...believe what you need to.

Groups which are identified as neo-fascist in the United States generally include neo-Nazi organizations and movements such as the Proud Boys,[94] the National Alliance, and the American Nazi Party. The Institute for Historical Review publishes negationist historical papers which are often of an antisemitic nature. The alt-right—a loosely connected coalition of individuals and organizations which advocates a wide range of far-right ideas, from neoreactionaries to white nationalists—is often included under the umbrella term "neo-fascist", because alt-right individuals and organizations advocate a radical form of authoritarian ultranationalism.[95][96]

Wave whatever flag you like Eskie. Most modern western democracies will let you do that.