Mental illness does not exist

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pachyderm said:Did I stir a hornet's nest or what? Please do not attribute to me things that I did not say.

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You said "MENTAL ILLNESS DOES NOT EXIST"

Everyone on this forum is effected by some form of mental illness. I'm sorry but this is just downright rude to tell us that we're all just making it up.

> it sounds like you are referring to the stigma surrounding the labels to me pachyderm.

Stigma AND misinformation, mistakes. Stigma arises when actual causes are not understood, and the unknown causes fear. I think the case of leprosy (Hanson's disease) is an excellent example.

> Everyone on this forum is effected by some form of mental illness. I'm sorry but this is just downright rude to tell us that we're all just making it up.

I am on this forum. I have been affected. Particularly as an adult by so much misinformation.

I DID NOT SAY or imply that anyone here is "making it up." Please show me in any of my posts where I said (or implied) that.

I know this is a hard topic. I myself confuse what some people say with what other people say. I try to be aware that something strange is taking place when I do that.

Ok if it "DOES NOT EXIST" then what is it?

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pachyderm said:

Yes, I think mental illness is a matter of degree.

Did I stir a hornet's nest or what? Please do not attribute to me things that I did not say.

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Mental wellness to mental unwellness (as Sky puts it) may indeed lie on a continuum .However that's not the same as everyone being mentally ill' any more than nobody being gay or straight because sexual preference lies on a continuum.

'Stigma arises when actual causes are not understood, and the unknown causes fear.'

that is very true imo

yes.... the unknown would create a 'need to know' .. then comes 'the diagnosis'.... followed by 'naming' ... then categorizing and depersonalizations...

then is disconnection and alienations.... stigmatization...

exclusion, outcasts.. blaming....

because someone was ..... having 'feelings' ....

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nowheretorun said:
'Stigma arises when actual causes are not understood, and the unknown causes fear.'

that is very true imo

yes.... the unknown would create a 'need to know' .. then comes 'the diagnosis'.... followed by 'naming' ... then categorizing and depersonalizations...

then is disconnection and alienations.... stigmatization...

exclusion, outcasts.. blaming....

because someone was ..... having 'feelings' ....

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help...i'm getting confused now. does that mean that having a diagnosis and a name for your problem is bad? ooh i really don't think i'm clever enough to follow this one.

> if it "DOES NOT EXIST" then what is it?

What I am trying to say is that I think that Szasz and the others who have written about the "myth of mental illness" and who have been dismissed by the bulk of the psychiatric community, have a great deal of truth in what they say. That is, what we have been taught to believe about "mental illness" and what causes it, is full of errors and misrepresentations. What the real thing is, I tried to say. It is the destabilization and mental confusion that is generated in susceptible people (most of us, particularly as children) by the discrepancies between our actual feelings and thoughts and what we are taught is acceptable. That suffering and deprivation of normal affectional connections to (mostly) caregivers leads to horrible frustrations and lashing out at other people in trying to make sense of our distress. And thus produces more like us.

> Mental wellness to mental unwellness (as Sky puts it) may indeed lie on a continuum .However that's not the same as everyone being mentally ill'

You are not saying I did, but -- that is another thing I did NOT say. I do say that (as far as I can see) just about everyone is damaged to some extent. Damage is not necessarily fatal. If we consider that kind of damage as being "mentally ill" to a degree, then that is what I think.

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suffering and deprivation of normal affectional connections to (mostly) caregivers leads to horrible frustrations and lashing out at other people in trying to make sense of our distress. And thus produces more like us.

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as the 'outcasting ' like process of being being stigmatized would naturally create... feelings of dissociation and disconnection from others...

more and more people, fearing more and more....

not a positive scenario but a very possible one imo...

if it were true... it seems that 're-connecting' to ourselves, each other, and society is a step in the process to healing...

> does that mean that having a diagnosis and a name for your problem is bad?

Not necessarily. Only if the diagnosis is "wrong"! If the diagnosis accurately portrays the symptoms and the origins or "meanings" of those symptoms are understood, at least in outline, then it can be useful.

You guys have to realize that I am not all-knowing. (Wow!) Unlike how some of our "leaders" seem to portray themselves ("I cannot think of any mistakes I have made.") in trying to hide their own uncertainties.

I am trying to understand something.

> it seems that 're-connecting' to ourselves, each other, and society is a step in the process to healing.

im sorry, pach, but you should have known the repurcussions that would come along with a post like this. this is a support forum and that doesnt seem very supportive. whether or not its true, people are ready to hear it at different stages. not eveyone is ready to deal with hearing these things at the same time. someone who has been recovering for a while might be able to finally say "okay, i can change this. its all in my head." when some people might not. and sometimes it is all in their own head, while sometimes its not.

and to a question i saw earlier: many people would choose to be depressed subconsciously. some people... thats all they see. they think its normal. maybe their parents were depressed or whatever and their scared to change. almost everyone, even thought its (in the end) much easier to change, they will expend so much time and energy to stay the way that feels the most comfortable. and for a lot of people, being depressed is more comfortable because thats all they know. thats like asking "why dont women just leave abusive relationships?" there are many reasons and no one ever completely knows why. i do believe that most depression can be solved by the person and that its all in their own head. but its very hard to change and some people would rather stay the way they are instead of being happy.

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pachyderm said:
> if it "DOES NOT EXIST" then what is it?

What I am trying to say is that I think that Szasz and the others who have written about the "myth of mental illness" and who have been dismissed by the bulk of the psychiatric community, have a great deal of truth in what they say. That is, what we have been taught to believe about "mental illness" and what causes it, is full of errors and misrepresentations. What the real thing is, I tried to say. It is the destabilization and mental confusion that is generated in susceptible people (most of us, particularly as children) by the discrepancies between our actual feelings and thoughts and what we are taught is acceptable. That suffering and deprivation of normal affectional connections to (mostly) caregivers leads to horrible frustrations and lashing out at other people in trying to make sense of our distress. And thus produces more like us.

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What have you been "told" causes mental illness?

And how is "discrepancies between our actual feelings and thoughts and what we are taugt is acceptable" so much different than some of those "causes" that you don't believe in?

How do you explain the genetic link of mental illness, which has been shown even in family members who were raised in seperate homes? There are studies. There are NUMEROUS studies that show there is an actual, genetic, medical factor for many types of mental illness. It's got nothing to do with what we think is "acceptable"

How do you explain the fact that medications DO work for most patients. If it's all about how we think...then why would a chemical make us better? And no, it's not all placebo effect.

Just because YOU disagree with YOUR diagnosis (or lack thereof) does NOT mean that the rest of us are just making it all up and we really aren't mentally ill.

Mental illness is REAL and the sooner you accept that fact the quicker you can move on and heal.

The only one here continuing the stigma is yourself.

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salukigirl said:
someone who has been recovering for a while might be able to finally say "okay, i can change this. its all in my head." when some people might not. and sometimes it is all in their own head, while sometimes its not.
...
i do believe that most depression can be solved by the person and that its all in their own head. but its very hard to change and some people would rather stay the way they are instead of being happy.

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If people were capable of fixing themselves then there would be no such thing as psychiatrists or antidepressants and they would not make $100 bucks an hour to help us.

If it's "all in our head" then NO psychiatric medication would ever work. But they do. Sometimes.

If it's "all in our head" then explain Postpartum depression. It's called a HORMONAL IMBALANCE and even the happiest mothers get it. You can't just wish it away.

Maybe we should tell Andrea Yates that it is "socially acceptible" to kill all her children. Would that make you happy, pachy? To let her express her feelings and not hide them?

I truly do not understand what you are trying to say here.

There are plenty of MEDICAL studies that show how certain chemicals in the brain are DIFFERENT in people with certain mental disorders.

Perhaps I should just go kill myself so they can study my brain and use it for PROOF for those of you who think there is absolutely nothing medically wrong with me....

(I'm kidding no I'm not really going to do that just stating a point)

are personal attacks really necessary to prove your point Razzleberry??

This entire thread is a personal attack at those of us who have the very illnesses she doesn't "believe in".

if she is wrong, and im not saying she is, do two wrongs make it right?

I was thinking about an analogy using the "all in your head" term, but decided against it.

Technically, most things are "all in my head." I mean, if I didn't have a head, then nothing would bother me. It's where the brain is, and thus where everything is identified, it's also where thoughts of what to do and how to react are formed.

There is "mind over matter." But to even suggest that one can, with a wave of a hand, immediately change whatever is resulting in mental unwellness is ludicrous. It's a process, just like any illness is. Some take longer to heal, some only have limited healing.

What I stated before is that everything is medical..or rather physically based. That's how enmeshed we humans are made. There is no separation of mind/body... I personally think of it as a hologram in each cell: each identifying aspect and controlling chemical of the person is contained in each cell to some extent. My argument is that IF one were to say there is no "mental illness" it is only to use another term that fits more intrinsically with the medical terminology, with the physical illness genre (that happens to result in psychological distress also.)

But continuing to use the term mental illness is still quite acceptable to many people. (I just don't like the stigma that goes with it.)

We are fearfully, and wonderfully made.

the mods must be sleeping, I reported this thread hours ago...

This just plain does not belong on this kind of supportive website.

I'm sorry...but it just does not.

It's like going to a cancer treatment center and telling them cancer doesn't exist.

It's like telling an anorexic to "just eat".

It's just plain WRONG to say this kind of thing to a group of people who are CLEARLY suffering from mental illness.

i dont believe that it was pachys' point to state that what we feel is imaginary.. perhaps i am wrong also..

i believe she is trying to make a point regarding the stigma surrounding the labeling of our feelings as a mental illness is all

Wait...so it's the term "mental illness" that you don't like?

Fine. Call it Cotton Candy Disease. Call it a physical disease that just so happens to effect our brains. I don't care.

But it is real. It DOES exist.

And I'm still utterly confused at what point she is trying to make to begin with....

wow razz. ever heard of playing devi's advocate to get people to think? notice that i said SOME not all. you are flying way off the handle here. my opinion is my opinion and who are you to tell me that my opinion is wrong? if you hate this thread then stop looking at it. nobody was making a personal attack and if you took it that way thats your problem, not mine.

this thread is very hard to read, but at the same time IT DOES get one thinking DOESN'T it
instead of arguing (sp) look for points to prove the statement wrong, instead of attacking respect her opinion, without us pdoc's would be out of work

yes Razzleberry... what you feel is real.. what i feel is real... yes, for some , it is an issue to be labelled as mentally ill for having feelings...

TC