What do you think about the Pitbull?

I'd like to repeat what Sabby said. There are lots of strong emotions on both sides of this issue. Can we please remain civil about it?

Has anyone here read "Lost Dogs"? It's the story of the dogs seize at Michael Vick's farm. Prior to that seizure it was assumed dogs trained for fighting had to be put down because they would be too vicious. Of the 51 dogs seized only two had to be put down. One was a male who was dangerously vicious. The other was a female who had been bred so many times her health was so damaged she could not be saved. The other dogs were either rehabiliatated and adopted out or they are living out their lives in Dog Town, a rescue facility.

The ones living out their lives at Dog Town are not vicious, but their emotional make-up is so messed up in an immature way from the treatment they received they can't function in the outside world. It's not that they are dangerous to people. It's that their emotional development is messed up.

The dogs that were adopted out have gone on to live lives as family pets, therapy dogs and other productive lives.

I'm not saying that all Pit Bulls are wonderful, safe dogs. Some are not. Some have been trained by people to be mean and attack/fight. Some have been bred to fight/attack. Some were never trained how a well socialized dog should behave. I was once attacked by a Pit-cross. Thank gawd it got the back of my pants and not my leg. If it had it would have hamstrung me. I don't condemn the breed though. I condemn the owner who knew he had a vicious dog and let it off the chain it was usually on.

I mentioned before I used to be friends with someone who had a pack of nasty little Chihuahuas. The only reason they did not inflict serious damage was because of their size. (George, that's why we don't see stories about Chihuahuas attack baby. They aren't big enough to inflict much harm. If they were the size of Pits they would be making headlines too.)

I guess I come across as defending the breed. Can we not condemn a breed because of the behavior of some of the animals?

While Chihuahuas may not be big enough to inflict much damage, I can state from a toddler's point of view (my aunt had a pack of the yipping nipping little flucks) that nothing instills fear in the heart of a toddler more than a bunch of snarling, snapping Chihuahuas rushing up and attacking your legs, ankles & feet, and I still hate that little bastid breed to this very day because of it!

My own dog, Fozzie, the Golden mix which I adopted at 8 weeks old from the pound, has "turned" twice. This was really frightening and disheartening to me as he is such a goofy lovable dog...to everyone. One time was when my friend and I were in my pool. Fozzie was on the deck looking down at my friend who was talking to him, and Fozzie became aggressive and barking threateningly at her. Not just once or twice, but extendedly. It scared her (and me), and I still have no explanation. The other time was when my twin grandsons invited a little boy to the pool. The three of them were standing on the deck before entering the pool, and Fozzie began barking aggressively at the little boy, who just stood there frozen. I scolded and grabbed Fozzie and took him inside. I asked the little boy what happened, and he said he just looked Fozzie "in the eyes." Both of these incidents had to do with my pool, and I've noticed how Fozzie doesn't want my other dog on the pool deck. He seems to think it's HIS territory. I'm not sure what to do about that, but I can't have him threatening my visitors. He has never bitten anyone, but he can be quite rambunctious and hard to control. On walks, after he knocked me down trying to get away from me as other walkers approached with a dog on a leash, I did some research and bought a "head halter." This has certainly helped. It fits over the nose and up behind the ears, and makes him behave when we walk. He doesn't like it, but it's painless, and since he loves going for a walk, he lets me put it on him.
Sorry for rambling. I do say with certainty, however, if Fozzie ever bit someone, I'd have to put him down. He's big and hard for me to control.

I certainly understand that people have a right to be afraid of or angry about attacks by pitbulls or any other breed of dog. I'm not trying to excuse the dog by any stretch, what I'm trying to do is help folks understand that there is a psychology to dogs. This psychology is completely different to that of humans.

Dogs are pack animals. If humans don't take on the role of pack leader (to any breed of dog), then the dog feels it's their job to be the pack leader and troubles will always occur when that happens.

I've learned a lot about this from a man who has the "Dog Psychology Center" in California by the name of Cesar Milan. This guy has done amazing work in learning about dog psychology, what it means and how humans can use it to help their dogs be good members of our society. His motto is "I rehabilitate dogs, I train humans". His way just makes so much sense to me.

If you are interested in learning about him, just google him. Hopefully, if you keep an open mind about what he does, you may see how his way works in helping owners learn how to be the pack leader to keep themselves, others and their dogs safe.

George- None of us can tell you the answer to that because we weren't there. He could have seen the baby as a toy due to not being properly introduced, or a ton of other possibilities.

While I agree with some of the things Cesar Millan teaches (Like giving dogs more exercise) For the most part I really disagree with his methods. They can often do much more harm than good, he's hurt a few dogs on his show, and there are much safer ways to go about things. Also, a lot of the "success" he has is actually learned helplessness.

Here are a few interesting reads about the subject of Cesar Milan and dominance training...

From Veterinarian, animal behaviorist, and dog trainer, Dr. Ian Dunbar:
The dog trainer's trainer

Veterinarian/animal behaviorist, Dr. Sophia Yin:
The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Dr. Karen Becker:
The Alpha Dog Myth (Part 2): Abandoning the Dominance Theory

VCA Animal Hospitals:
Dog Behavior and Training - Dominance, Alpha, and Pack Leadership - What Does It Really Mean? | VCA Animal Hospitals

Association of Professional Dog Trainers:
Dominance Myths and Dog Training Realities

Pat Miller, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, CDBC:
De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

Lisa Mullinax, CPDT-KSA:
Dog Whisperer, Dog Psychology and Cesar Millan

Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors:
Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Lisa Mullinax, CPDT-KSA:
Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers

There are also some really great videos out there.

Thanks for the links. I'm always interested in the "other side" of things and will take some time to looks through them as soon as I get a chance.

I've had far more humans turn on me than animals. Again, what it comes down to is, Is the owner capable of being responsible for a pit bull? Will s/he choose to be responsible? Is said owner knowledgeable of how to train a pit bull? While I also disagree with some of Cesar Milan's methods (and consider some of it abuse), I do agree there is a dog psychology, and you have to understand a breed in order to train it.

I'm not believing I'm reading some of these excuses and rationalizations. That was actually a rhetorical question. There is no good reason or excuse. As much as I love animals, their value never trumps that of a child. And that was one of thousands of incidents. I think I'll bow out of this thread now. I'm sure that will make some of you happy
I get the feeling that if we had a discussion on eating horse meat some of you would be outraged at such a thing

No baby should be left alone with a dog, not matter the breed. I've got a small 15 lb dog. I'm an adult, and a few times she's gotten a bit rough with playing, or missed a toy and got my hand and it hurts. She broke skin once without even meaning too. Here's a good video which at the end shows how rough a dog can be just when playing: Avoid Dog Bites | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

Just for the record, I'm fine with people eating horse meat as long as the animals are kept correctly.

I love them.
I HATE that they have a bad rap. Mostly because they are placed in the wrong hands. Usually in that case they are trained to fight and kill. If you were raised that way, you would fight for your survival as well( at least I would). Not to mention being starved and abused. They have a very high bite force, and when they bite they tend to cling which makes them ideal for fighting.

Actually, a long time ago they were considered nanny dogs, such as the golden retriever. I have met pitbulls, and pitbull mixes that have been nothing but sweety. Even one that thought he was a lap dog lol.

Honestly, the person who said they should be terminated really pissed me off. Maybe they have their reasons, but does not mean all of them are bad.

Any animal can be trained to kill. I have seen more aggression out of those little *** 'dogs'. Even bit by one.
I would LOVE to have a pitbull at some point in my life. They are sweet, loving, loyal dogs if treated and raised right.

I wouldn't fully trust any 'domesticated' dog - it would be plain stupid to do so. But this has already been discussed so there's no need to elaborate. Would i personally own a Pit Bull? No. But then i'm not a fan of bigger dogs or the bull-type so why would i? The issue i have with 'pedigree' breeding is that there's a lot of it and simply too much of it being done poorly. We're losing the more solid temperaments associated with any breed - and the results are becoming disastrous. Animals are a privilege - not a right. Besides, with the amount of homeless animals that have been terribly hard done by, i don't know why i would want to further a breeders trade when i can pick one up there. Again just another opinion i don't care to discuss further.

I agree, we shouldn't be breeding any dogs (or cats, or some other animals). We have an overpopulation problem. I am speaking about not banning a breed, not about breedING. I have read that some people are breeding in order to try to breed out bad health problems, and while I agree that's a good reason to breed, but first we need to get the population back to a reasonable number.

Horses as well. More than 10,000 Thoroughbred race horses go to slaughter each year because they are not fast enough. And another 750 die each year from injuries on the track. I love horses but hate the horse racing industry.

Thanks for mentioning that. I don't know a lot about the horse industry, but I've heard stories like you mention. I also have heard reports of the horses that pull carriages in New York streets are actually very poorly cared for. I try to be objective, because it's possible not every story is true, but I do take a concern when I hear of abuse and neglect.

I even wonder about small pets, like hamsters. I feel upset at the knowledge that some people buy mice and possibly others like the hamsters for snake food. I understand the snake has to eat; it's just an emotional response I can't help. But I believe a quick death is best before feeding the mouse to the snake. And I think you can get alternative food sources (like worms), but I'm not a snake expert, so don't take any of this as accurate information.

Personally I don't think anyone should be breeding unless it's to improve the breed. Reputable breeders don't breed often (1-2 litters per year) And work to improve the health and temperament of their breed. The dogs are also sold with spay and neuter contracts to responsible people who aren't likely to give the dog up. If they do have to rehome the dog, it's in the contract that the dog has to go back to the breeder. While I do agree with rescuing whenever possible...Some people want or need a dog that has a solid foundation (Breeding)

This thread seems to be going off topic so I will now close it. Thanks everyone for their input and thoughts.