Im sick of people telling me to get over it , its was four years ago .

Well I am sorry but I disagree...and I don't think it's helpful for me to tell myself I am choosing to be stuck in pain. how exactly is it my choice? I am not the one who put myself in pain.

Also I don't really believe in a conscious higher power...so not sure a 12 step program would do any good for me, I mean I tried religion as a kid and to be honest it really just brought me down more.

I have a friend who is supportive, and if I get angry he doesn't tell me 'you shouldn't feel that way.' he helps me discuss why I feel that way and that I am not a horrible person for it. That is good enough, if the people who cared for me didn't provide me some emotional support I don't know what I'd do. Its not about always wanting to be right.....but I certainly don't think always being told I am wrong is good either.

Also I really don't feel I have a choice to heal, I feel like I've been beat down too far and am too far gone...so I think my best option is to cope with it instead of always trying to fight a losing battle. Maybe that puts me more in the 'victim' catagory......but I don't think I should be stigmatized for that. I mean its not as though I like that I'm not strong enough to just push through it and get better...hence the reason my whole life I was always pushing myself far beyond my limits just in the hopes it might get better. So for me I need to stop doing that and try something else. For me that is accepting the state of things and coping with that...not fighting a battle I can't win.

But do what works for you, everyone's different and I am truly glad you've found something that helps you.

Woman Healing,

I really hear what you are saying here. I have been married to a man for 32 years who is a recovering alchoholic and has been involved in the AA step program that has proven to be very helpful to him in many ways. However that process took a long time for him to be able to HELP me and ACTUALLY keep him from totally falling back into the abusive patterns he put upon me. And it truely took him a long time to actually grow up as when he entered the program his maturity level was that of a 13 year old. I had to learn how NOT to mother him and THAT HE WAS GOING TO CONSTANTLY PUSH MANY BUTTONS TO GET ME TO DO JUST THAT, MOTHER HIM.
At the same time I was also raising our child. All of this put a tremedous strain on me for many years and it was very hard on my daughter as well.

I am thankful for the AA program, and it did help us save our marriage, but that was only because I tried very hard to be patient EVEN THOUGH THERE WERE NO MENTORS FOR ME TO SHOW ME THAT IT WOULD WORK in the ALANON meetings I attended. And statistacally MOST WOMEN WAIT FOR THIER HUSBAND TO GET SOBER AND THEN FILE FOR DIVORCE.

I hear what you are saying, really, but you have to consider the amount of time it took you to finally have the AA program sink in and that for a while, long while, you had to focus on YOU, YOU, YOU and I know that because THAT IS HOW IT WAS FOR MY HUSBAND. And while he was NEEDING TO DO THAT, I had to keep being patient and hold it together HOPING THAT HE WOULD ACTUALLY GET THAT PROGRAM AND NOT FALL OFF THE WAGON presenting me with that man who I could never depend on who psychologically abused me because of his alcoholism.

I can also understand what Hellion is saying here. Hellion has been around people who have constantly invalidated. There has to be a validation of abuse, there simply has to be, even those in the AA program do get validated. And there are many steps they go through to accept their powerlessness and learn ways to finally heal. This step program DOES TAKE A LOT OF TIME and I myself know this first hand.

Hellion, you do deserve to be validated, and with PTSD that must be a constant as well as slow work on not only being validated but to also learn to participate in ones own recovery, which is similar to AA's approach.

Someone who engages the AA program is taught to remove themselves from their drinking partners completely. In AA the new direction is to be with others that have accepted their powerlessness over alcoholism and yet at the same time gain permission to WORK TOWARDS STAYING SOBER AND LEARNING HOW TO HEAL.

I would have to say that with someone who is experiencing PTSD that has developed from being a victim of abuse also has to be willing to remove themselves from those that abused them or anyone who fails to acknowlege their struggle as well. And there is a definite need for the appropriate support system that not only validates the ongoing challenge but also supports the individual to do the "work" to gaining in their own HEALING through and past PTSD and the thinking patterns that come with PTSD that can contribute to disabling the person who is struggling with PTSD.

So you are both correct about some of the requirements for what is needed to overcome and finally learn how to become a productive thriving human being. And in both cases it is important to acknowlege and validate the struggle while also addressing how we can unknowingly get stuck and have to learn HOW to work through the steps towards recovery.

((HUGS for open minds here))))
Open Eyes

I guess I just can't take all the empathsis on recovery its way to overwhelming when I hardly have motivation to even keep living...let alone trying to push through and overcome my PTSD and other psychological problems in the hope that it will get better like it never has in my entire life...regardless of how much I tried convincing myself it had, or tried thinking positively and just putting it all behind me.

I guess I am just feeling kind of alienated like there is no help for if you want to learn to cope with the way things are, and the fact it could get worse...rather then so much focus on overcoming it. I mean it just feels like to others it's not acceptable to be unhappy with life even when it feels like misery and my environment over all is unhealthy. I just can't live up to that, I mean it feels like if I am so burnt out I just want to cope I'm not living up to what I ought to be trying to according to other people and thus deserve to be looked down on or whatever for being a 'victim',and honestly I am not sure how I will handle it if I run into that particular attitude from mental health professionals or people I go to for support. I'd just feel bad my best isn't good enough for them.

If you know there is a Solution but you don't try it then you are choosing to be stuck in pain. 12-step fellowship is actually not religious at all, it's spiritual, and you can look up the definitions of those words if you'd like. That's a huge mainstream misconception - I figured people understood that by now. I would suggest trying it a number of times and keeping a good healthy open mind (which is always required for change.)

I identify strongly with your feeling so far gone and beaten down that you feel hopeless. Did you know that a human being actually has to be in that state before they are ready to really accept change? Crises are the opportunity for that. I would love to see you feel better.

One thing I have to remember is no one puts a gun to my head to choose or stay in a relationship with a sick person. I have no one to blame and there are no victims. That is growing up. See, the Solution releases all anger because I can see my part.

Unfortunately, beginning in about the 1970s, AA and Alanon started to really water down the original method of 12 steps and meetings became like talk therapy. Many of us suffered that era, yup. We remained EIGHT years old never mind THIRTEEN! But it's changing today - you can hear it in the meetings. People are going BACK to the Solution. And damn, it's powerful. Takes a year maybe more to do. So the lucky folks who come into recovery today hear about it, esp depending on what part of the country you live in. It's spreading like wildfire now tho...

Hey - you Alanoners can make us damned thirsty sometimes...everyone has defects of character....just sayin'...

There is no such thing as PTSD. Everyone has various levels of trauma, and I've had such horrific longterm trauma, some people drink over it some don't. But the 12 step process WHEN WORKED CORRECTLY untangled all that and man is it good.

I don't know there is a solution so it's not like I see a solution and am refusing to consider...there really is not a solution for my problems right now. It is quite possible your situation and my situation are very different for me its mostly that I've been mentally ill for years even before I had PTSD and its done damage....not to mention being bullied by kids and teachers throughout my childhood because I suck at social interaction, and having parents that didn't get along didn't exactly help. And now I'm in debt with college loans......because I couldn't function in college, I can't function at a job and I am hoping maybe I can get on SSI and survive on that..otherwise I really don't know what to do. Oh and the system we live under and society pretty much scares the crap out of me. I mean I don't even have a future all I have is more pain and misery to look forward to while trying to cope with it just so I can be here for my friends and close family.

Also I know the 12 step programs aren't religious, it's just I'm not exactly an alcoholic so I'm not sure how a program to help people with alcoholism is going to help me with my PTSD. Also I don't believe in a 'higher power' to acknowledge for even the purposes of a program. It's just not something I can relate to

PTSD doesn't exist? uhh, you're on a forum for people struggling with PTSD and you're going to really say it doesn't exist? well I think I've had enough of this thread for a while.

"There is no such thing as PTSD. Everyone has various levels of trauma, and I've had such horrific longterm trauma, some people drink over it some don't. But the 12 step process WHEN WORKED CORRECTLY untangled all that and man is it good". quote Woman Healing.

Ok, slow down, I hear you about the success you have gained in the program of AA, and I am glad that that program is being redirected and improved since I was exposed to it. And I HAVE SEEN HOW IT HAS HELPED MY HUSBAND. But I HONEST TO GOD HOPE THAT MY HUSBAND "NEVER" HEARS WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID, THAT WOULD BE SO BAD FOR "ME".

My husband has been involved with AA for over 20 years now and IN NO WAY DID HE KNOW HOW TO SUPPORT MY BATTLE WITH PTSD. And I came VERY CLOSE to ending my life, BECAUSE HE AND OTHERS WERE ACTUALLY "MEAN" AND BLAMING TOWARDS ME FOR SOMETHING I WAS TRUELY BATTLING AND DID NOT UNDERSTAND. And the only thing that saved my life was when my therapist learned that my husband was keeping a loaded handgun (which was my choice to end) next to our bed in the night stand. Even though I was so incredibly crippled, and I was, my husband truely did not hear me when I talked about wanting to give up. The only thing that got my husband on the right track of taking my condition seriously and begin to actually SUPPORT me, was his direction by my therapist.

Woman Healing, you have to be very careful how to talk to people who are struggling with PTSD and not just assume that the PTSD "YOU" suffer from is the same as the PTSD they are suffering from.

And I even had that happen to me here. Some people get diagnosed with PTSD and it is not as crippling as others. It is very different for different people and the one thing I will not do and not consider that someone else may be suffering way more than myself. And believe me, I was in BAD SHAPE. And I was not in the condition to even THINK of sitting in the ROOMS for quite a while.

Yes, I DO hear what you are saying Woman Healing, but I am asking you to please refrain from making comments that say that PTSD is NOT REAL. If it was that simple, they would not be studying it at the lengths they are now studying it. We have 75,000 troops coming home and we HAVE TO BE READY TO HELP THEM AND STOP DENYING THEM.

(((Hellion))) I "HEAR" YOU and I can understand what you are saying right now and I also know how you are also in fear of being denied even by therapists. And to be honest with you, I have had some bad experience with some therapists myself. BUT, you have to be patient and keep trying to find a therapist that specializes in treating patients with PTSD.

And I know honey, I know what you feel about thinking that you have struggled with PTSD your whole life as well and how it may feel hopeless. I can honestly say that to some degree, I have struggled with a degree of PTSD all of my life as well. And there were many times when I "REALLY" "SUFFERED" from it where I could bearly function that my priority was to simply learn to function, never mind even think of healing completely. So yes, the first goal is to find ways to get it under control, and then the healing WILL come and it will HAVE TO BE ON YOUR OWN TIME AND NO ONE ELSES TIME. And YES, you will need to be allowed to heal ON YOUR TIME with out PRESSURE. And just so you know, I endured so much bullying every single day on my bus ride to and from school and back in my day, there was nothing said or done to even mention that bullying was bad or wrong. The bus driver NEVER stood up once or said one word, he allowed it to continue. I went through that from K through grade 8 until I was able to go to a private school. And in that school I was very shy and quiet, BECAUSE MOST OF MY CHILDHOOD WAS SO FULL OF TRAMA FROM BULLYING, ON THE BUS AND THEN AT HOME FROM MY TWO OLDER SIBLINGS. AND, I was the youngest child and even was molested by my older brother. So, if I can do it you can too, but I do know what you are saying, I mean it when I say "I hear you".

And Hellion, I cannot say enough to PLEASE BE KIND TO YOURSELF, even though it is such a struggle. In NO WAY would I want to deny you in any way or say you are not really struggling, because I know from experience, THAT WOULD HAVE "NEVER" HELPED ME.

It really takes time to FIRST slowly learn how to address and gain "some" control over the crippling symptoms of PTSD. And I do have to say, we cannot do it alone, we have to do our best to keep reaching out for help, keep trying, because there IS help out there.

Open Eyes
Woman Healing, I am not going along with your statement above, that is going TOO FAR as there really IS PTSD and IT IS CRIPPLING AND I KNOW BECAUSE I HAVE IT.

We're exactly the same. Trust me - there is a Way Out.

I was "agnostic" before AA. meaning I just "didn't know" if there was a Higher power. All that isn't even needed to be worried about. The only thing that matters is keeping an open mind and not having what is called, "contempt prior to investigation" which is having a negative feeling towards something I haven't tried.

You say you're "not exactly an alcoholic." Drinking is only one symptom. people use all kinds of distraction.

Right now I don't have the option of seeing a therapist in general...still trying to figure something out though my first goal is diagnoses since that's important for certain things...and unless there's a good free therapist it may not work out. Hopefully I can find some amount of help though.

Also Its something that happened when I was 16 that I thought gave me PTSD....not sure I had it before that but it's possible, I am sure I've had depression and anxiety for most of my life. And last time I was in therapy me and the therapist came to the conclusion its quite possible I have mild autism of some sort...so that more or less interferes with some of my function though I would say that's certainly the least painful issue well except when it comes to the sensory issues like normal light being too bright, and normal noise being too loud...when combined with the startle reaction to loud noises with PTSD really sucks.

But yeah I am trying to be kind to myself...don't know I'm doing the best job of it though.

I hear a lot of self-pity and blaming and victimization. I have been exactly where you are and all I can say is there is a Way Out. I would find an Alanon Big Book Study or an AA sponsor who could guide you thru the BB. If what i said is True and Right, you will remember it - it will stick with you.

God bless you.

I just don't understand why people don't go to 12-step recovery. *sigh*
Just use Google and make some calls to find out where you fit in, or listen to your heart and go where it leads you. Don't be afraid! We are holding a seat and a nice hot cup of coffee for you!! <3

What I meant was I drink...but I'm not addicted to drinking. I have lots of alcoholism in my family so that's reason enough for me not to drink every day and limit my intake when I do drink. I can't say I never drink too much or that I've never been close to alcoholism though...when I was 19 in college I was drinking low quality vodka every night just to numb the pain and it was terrible. So I stopped that. I mean I'm the one at family gatherings having a couple beers watching everyone else make idiots(for lack of a better term) out of themselves because they can't handle their wine...or on my dads side of the family beer and hard alcohol. Then sometimes me my older two siblings and my cousin leave for a walk to have some more intelligent conversation.

Also I am not unfamiliar with AA or related groups for family members of people with alcoholism even my moms into that kind of thing more or less...its just not something that I can see helping me and I think I have the right to find treatments I am more comfortable with. And an alcoholism focused group...when the main issues I am struggling with are PTSD, Depression and Anxiety kinds seems like a good way of distracting myself from those problems rather than helping with them.

Woman Healing, I am "not" denying that the 12 step program is a good program. As I mentioned it saved my marriage and helped my husband imensely and I do know my husband has "a friend" in the program that has "no" addiction problems and uses the program to help himself stay in a better frame of mind. AND, my husband and I have had discussions where there have been times where my husband has had some very good imput, as well as there have been times where we have discussed my therapy and he can relate BECAUSE of the program. Yes, I am sure anyone CAN benifit from following the program even if they do not have a problem with alcohol/drug abuse or even other issues that could be a similar psychological problem that can be very similar to that of a drug/alcohol abuser. Oh, I hear you, remember I spent time in the AA/ALANON rooms myself and I have recommended them to others who struggle.

But you cannot, should not say, PTSD is not real Woman Healing, because struggling with constant intrusive flashbacks from severe childhood abuse IS VERY, VERY REAL. Wow, from my standpoint, I didn't even think a brain could do what I have experienced. My main goal for a while is to learn how to deal with and understand that amongst other crippling symptoms.

And there are members that come here and are at the beginning and frightened and in no way would I even think of saying PTSD isn't REAL.

Open Eyes

(((Hellion))),

I think you need to find your way to getting the correct diagnosis as well. From what I can see here you also have the disfuction of people around you that ARE alcholics, and I am so sorry. Living with or being raised by people who are alcoholics can lead to all kinds of psychological problems. It is no mistery this IS a well known fact.

Though I know you ARE trying to learn how to deal with the PTSD, please keep an open mind about perhaps finding your way to an Alanon meeting that is geared to helping children of alcoholics. One of the ways to help with the effects of PTSD is to find some resolve and you DO need to have some resolve with that. And, there is NO charge for these meetings and you MAY find others who also suffer from PTSD that you can relate to AND may give you a way to get more help that you have not even considered yet.

(((Hugs)))
Open Eyes

To be honest after some of what was said I kinda want to stay as far as anything to do with AA, I mean I don't want to risk being told IRL rather than over the internet that PTSD doesn't exist or other triggering things like that as I don't know quite how badly I'd react. Also I don't know if my lifestyle would go over to well with them,the last thing I want is to feel guilty for not being totally drug free.

I tried something like that when I was a teen, and me and my sister went and we both just ended up feeling really awkward and we couldn't really relate to the philosophy or whatever or the other people there.

So I think I will continue as planned with looking into other resources for now, thanks for the advice though and it could be something to look into later down the road but I really don't know at this point.

"when I was 19 in college I was drinking low quality vodka every night just to numb the pain and it was terrible. So I stopped that."

It's very common that we have a problem with alcohol and then put it down in fear. Esp if we come from alcoholic families. Others' drinking disgusts us. Then we stay bone dry for a period of time only to drink again, or try "control drinking". But we still have no effective remedy for it or the underlying causes.

Only we can diagnose ourselves, but it does sound to me as though you are investigating this idea of "am I an alcoholic?" which is not as scary as it may "sound". In fact many including myself readily believe that Alanoners are just alcoholics who don't drink.

I drank because of actually 2 different types of trauma but also because of my intense anxiety (anxiety attacks etc and the alcohol gave me relief, benzos and meds for it only screwed me up more) and my depression (meds again made no difference, which ones I was on, how much, etc., I was never happy, could never stand to be alone, and had very low self-eteem.) I never drank every day. I never took a morning drink. No one would ever look at me and think I was an alcoholic but now I understand what it really is.

Well, I'm not the president of AA, I tell people to have their own experience. I yam who I yam.

In fact many including myself readily believe that Alanoners are just alcoholics who don't drink. quote, Woman Healing

I think you should be careful with this thinking. You are not going to draw others to the program with this kind of statement. YOU have admitted that YOU are an alcoholic, it is not good for you to just assume others are the same as you, that is poor thinking in my opinion. That is no different from someone who is manic bipolar to get treatment and then say "well we think everyone is manic bipolar".

Open Eyes

I never play it safe, I play it honest.

W_H, if your intention is to HELP others by SUGGESTING the program, I'd like to inform you that you're doing it WRONG... All I hear is judgmental indoctrination about what seems like a cult. YOU ARE ALIENATING PEOPLE, NOT HELPING. if you know this, I apologize for stating the obvious.

Ok, but that is "YOUR" POINT OF VIEW. I play it honest as well and my honesty tells me that I AM NOT THE LEADER OR KNOW IT ALL, I am learning and growing just like everyone else is here.

My husband, along with many other alcoholics MUST SEE IT "THEIR" WAY, INCLUDING WHEN THEY DRANK.

Believe me, I have to stop and remind my husband of this constantly, as it is a HABIT OF HIS THAT HE HAS TO "WORK" ON. And "HE" sees it too, "HONESTLY".

I personally think that instead of telling people there is no such thing as PTSD or that THEY MAY BE ALCOHOLICS TOO, why dont you just present "some" of the things that are in the "AA BOOK" that may be helpful.

One of the best guides and supporters of AA and Alanon and ALCOA here is Madisgram, and she doesn't say things like you are saying here. She has presented things that have helped me and others here and she is a valuable helpful supportive member who has been "IN THE PROGRAM FOR SEVERAL YEARS HERSELF". And she is someone who I would say is TRUELY HONEST. And she also knows about abuse herself and probably has even suffered from some PTSD symptoms, although I am not diagnosing her. I could never imagine her ever making the statements you have here. Maybe there is something in THE PROGRAM that you are missing.

Open Eyes

OE, please don't let this woman get to you, and upset your equalibrium. Either she's blissfully ignorant or purposely trolling, either way, don't give her the satisfaction of upsetting you

Thanks Trippen, I am more concerned about her upsetting the others that are struggling with PTSD which is a diagnosis that has/is very real and still being studied now. I appreciate her more positive input and want her to be a member at PC. But you simply cannot go into a forum like this Labeled PTSD and start making comments like she is that there is NO SUCH THING AS PTSD. In fact that is simply NOT ALLOWED AS FAR AS I KNOW IN THE GUIDELINES OF THIS SITE. This is a supportive site and we must "respect" others that are seeking support for their disorders or issues, we cannot tell anyone thier disorder/issue is NOT WHAT A QUALIFIED PDOC OR THERAPIST HAS DIAGNOSED THEM WITH.

Woman Healing, you are NOT a qualified therapist and you have to be careful not to diagnose others of tell them their diagnosis is not real. You cannot say that "everyone is an alcoholic, that people who go to alanon are also alcoholics. When you make these statements, Trippen is right, you are making it seem like AA is more like a cult, WHICH I KNOW AS NOT TO BE TRUE AS IT IS A WONDERFUL PROGRAM. You have to represent that GOOD program and the statements you are making IS NOT DOING THAT.

Open Eyes

I didn't stop out of fear I was just sick of drinking so much...so I decided to quit drinking like that and enjoy my alcohol in moderation rather than over-doing it just about every night like i used to.