Aversion to pharmaceuticals?

The thing is, that's not at all what I posted. not at all. If you've perceived my post as what you've re-written, you have drastically misperceived my words and intention. I've commented enough on that subject and I'm done with it.

I agree with your post, Lauliza.

Michanne, are you truly comfortable with not taking meds? Are you sure? Your defensiveness indicates to me that you're not entirely confident with your decision or that your methods of treatment isn't entirely effective. Totally understandable - just as someone might not be entirely okay with the decision to take meds. Hypersensitivity to others' perceived criticism, however, can itself be an indication of a mental health issue. It just that your point about alternative practices is made. We hear you.
btw, recent research has indicated that caffeine can reduce the chance of becoming diabetic. Refined sugar, on the other hand, is certainly not healthy. There are alternatives to refined white sugar.

VENUS how come your hear, your a flower child and a anti war campaigner , there is a big one going on in your city now . Should you not be holding back the Russians with your people, OF TOPIC but I could not let that happed to the Ukraine with your belief,s Prague your home city is up in arms with protests , you surprise me you really do

To the extent that writing is a challenge in any context I agree. Where have I completely discounted the use of meds? I find myself going overboard to deal with the defense of meds. To say they are appropriate sometimes... Even for me. My defensive statements have been in response to people who bucket people which again, I have not.

"I get more opinionated when perhaps non functioning parents of children are refusing to take meds when they should."

This is judgmental because I am not addressing the group you are referring to. The people on these posts don't generally fall into that category at all. In fact I have said "it is hard" over and over. I have said I am not perfect and cannot do all the things necessary... Maybe someday but certainly not now. I have to be pragmatic. That doesn't mean I cannot look at Monica Cassini's story as an inspiration. In another post I said if you could do one thing eat a lot more raw beets and apples in spring and fall for a little while. I didn't say give up anything. I didn't say stop meds. Yet somehow that is taken as a black and white statement.

You and others talk about research on the internet as if that is all I do. As if you can find proof for whatever you want. No. I am very much a critical thinker. I pay more than average attention to who is writing, what they have to gain, what is their education, what references they use and are they valid. Rarely do I fall into the trap of believing something without any evidence. I can't stand formulaic books and advice. With any subject... Politics, meds, holistic treatment, I find that professionals that live in one world or another are more closed minded. They don't necessarily intend to be. They just never get any other picture. That is what I am fighting. My comment to you earlier is the double standard on the evidence for or against meds vs the same for nutrition. Nutrition was only an example. I am well aware that is not a complete solution. There are facts supporting healing power of nutrition. There are facts supporting benefits of meds. There is not yet a theory that either one is a cure.

There are people who have taken the holistic approach and consider themselves recovered. In observation it seems that nutrition is always a part of of it (and not the constrained, impossible to live on diet kind either.) This negates the idea that people that who exhibit a certain level of behaviors need meds. It does not say that it is appropriate for all people. I have tried to be very clear about that.

I thought the op was asking for opinions on why people are against pharmaceuticals. The people "for them" (misnomer) have a whole culture and powerful industry in support. People that question meds have to explain themselves.




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I been on the last protest. I had school today, hence I am in other part of the country. But I am involved.

And as much as you wish it I am not gonna pointless pull a Tiananmen.

wow, you just managed another low. But you never suprise. Badly spelt nonsense and insult.

Sorry Michanne. She. There is no way of knowing on here and I get confused.

Denman I am currently listening to podcast from this website on existential therapy.
MEDIA | The Healthy Mind with Dr. Zafirides

The current clinical consensus is that 50% of the people who take meds are helped. In my opinion they don't know how or why they are helped or not helped. You can't measure neurotransmitters in a living brain. You can measure seretonon in the blood and it has been shown to be lower in depressed patients. This may not mean anything. Seretonin has many receptors and performs a number of functions in the body. There are genetic tests coming out that may tell you which med or class of meds may work better for you. It is very complex and there is much they do not know.

The current clinical consensus is that the best treatment for depression is meds with therapy. There are many different therapies and many of the newer ones do involve changing behaviour and incorporate alternative therapies.
Psycho Analysis
Cognitive Behaviour Therapy
Emotive Rational Behaviour Therapy
Dialectical Behaviour Therapy
Empathy Therapy
Existential Therapy
And more

Let me add to my earlier list-
Spiritual Practices ( I have relied heavily on this, not religion)

The bottom line is we are all looking for solutions to a set of very little understood and very hard to treat mental illnesses. I like to follow the current research.

Exercise is proven to change the brain. (I just can't get the motivation to do it when deeply depressed)

Meditation is proven to change the brain. (I do it alot)

Cognitive Behaviour Therapy has proven very effective. (I practice it alot on my own since I learned how)

Of course we all have our own experience to rely on as to what works and what does not work.

You need to understand my story...

I take the reduction of meds very seriously and very slow. It has nothing to do with confidence one way or another. I have said many times I am not ready. I am ready to reduce and am in the process of reducing the AD however. The Lamictal is known to make permanent changes to your brain depending on how long you have taken it so for that reason I am not at all sure I can be free of it. The last time I ended an AD my PA at the time thought I should take two weeks to do it, tops. She actually argued with me about this. I ended up lying to her about when I wanted to start and did it at my own pace. On two occasions I had to revert the last dose because I was not ready. Btw, she confessed to me that the reason drs are reluctant to taking people off ads is they don't want to feel responsible. Iow, she wasn't a partner to my care. It actually took me a year and a half to find a pdoc that is more holistic. This was a few years ago. It has definitely gotten better.

But Lamictal aside I have known for a while that my career choice to work in corp environments and my SAD diet and who I have traditionally been around has had a negative influence on my mental health. Corp environments aren't creative by design. So the last time I got off the AD I was in a place of working towards a radical career change. I did not have enough savings to make a complete transition but I could afford some time off. So since then I have made art a very important part with workshops (even flying across the country for two), making connections, transforming two rooms for art projects. The diet part is the hardest and always a work in progress. But at the time I was coming off the med I was able to do a super hard cleanse and it made a remarkable difference.

What I didn't know, because it is not accepted or understood, is that depression will come back. I was not seeing a long term picture with my jobs. I was traveling too far for work. I was working on a toxic team and reluctantly working with a PA that over medicated me. And paying less attention to art as a result. So I started the med since I couldn't not go to work. The med made things worse. The last time I was on an AD it helped. This time it did not. I do not believe I need it to live my life but I might need it to live a life that is currently expected of me.

What I know now is that depression the way I experience does not receive the same stigma in other cultures or even subcultures. I know now, for example, that when I come out of a depression I experience a creative boost. If I were to stay on meds to the point of being numb I do not think this would be possible or even known. Since I know that art is very important to my well being does it really make sense to be numb? In a more flexible work environment I could be more patient with myself ,understanding my cycle better. I could list a ton of stories of artists who have taken this approach.

So the other thing I changed was to take an easier job that is somewhat dead end. The job has no OT and is bike riding distance. I can concentrate on a long term goal, get my physical and mental health back and keep working on the art. My colleagues think I am an underachiever (to be kind).

I do not see my depression as untenable anymore. It is much more complicated than that. It therefore takes a much more complicated solution which is not easy and not for everyone.

I do not think my point has gotten through when you read into my words. You suggest I have not examined things honestly. This is not at all true.

I heard the research you cited. It makes sense that caffeine in coffee has benefits as all natural foods do. But if you are at risk for type 2 diabetes adding more caffeine isn't going to be much help if you are overweight and chowing down sugar. Sugar substitutes are icky tasting to me. I would rather cut back than substitute. Some substitutes increase your chance of diabetes. Acai is really the only one and only in certain foods in small amounts.

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You are going on ignore until you can grow up.

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To the original question... My t told me a story yesterday of going to her GP for some reason. She offered an rx not less than 5 times. My t had told her she was more tired because her 3 year old was waking her up in the middle of the night. Is it really a good idea to be medicated in that situation? It isn't like an unknown. Mind you my t is not only mentally healthy she is physically active (Colorado style). When she said no the dr said "well you could always get some Benadryl. At the end my t asked if she could recommend anybody with a more holistic approach. Of course she didn't know anyone and she seemed to take offense. The state of medicine today.

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It sounds like you have done an extensive amount of self-examination, Michanne, which is wonderful. I truly hope the best for you.

I know that many people are deeply concerned about the long-term effects of psychiatric medication. I am, too. But I also know that mental illness itself causes brain damage. The longer it goes on untreated, the worse the damage. My belief is that psych meds might actually ease the symptoms of mental illness, ease the stress on the body, and in the long run prevent damage to the brain and the rest of the body.

As for the state of mental health care today it's sure not perfect, but it has improved amazingly since the 1970's and before.

Thank you for sharing your story Michanne. It puts a different perspective on where you are coming from that I understand 100%. Almost all ADs flatten the personality so much that I have found it difficult to carry on a conversation, never mind create art. I thought of myself as an artist once (not at your level I don't think), and majored in it at first in college. I was terrible, no creativity and zero motivation. So I get it. I went off meds altogether for about 4 years when I had children and it was a disaster. As a parent I was horrid, and my moods were all over. I'm not borderline but for a while I thought I was. I tried so many supplements and lifestyle changes. They did not hurt for sure. Just wasn't enough for me. But it wasn't until the pdoc I have now who really tries to manage those side effects and find treatment that fits. You are right in that the choices available don't leave you with many options. Even lamictal which I loved on many levels was bad for me in the end. I was so brain dead I could have lost my job. There is one class of drugs only that really do what many people need - the MAOIs. But with the SE profile, it's risky and can be unhealthy. For me now, adderrall with low dose Prozac that I increase during PMS fits the bill. Along with fish oil, NAC, yoga, exercise, DBT (or mindfulness without the therapy), less caffein and less sugar...the list goes on.

I just worry when people try to get through almost impossible obstacles, especially if psychosis is involved. You obviously are thoughtful about your treatment and are doing everything you can. If you can stay well without losing your creativity then I am truly glad for you. In the most extreme cases it might be necessary for some patients, but it is still tragic. I hear you on that.

Thank you for hearing me. Adderall is the other one but it is a good compromise because the half life is so short. I had good experience with Neurofeedback as an option but it is too expensive and too far a way. Also the machines aren't as good these days which is too bad. The person I worked with is one of the original pioneers. It was a valuable learning experience though.

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Thank you for hearing me. I don't know if it true that MI is progressive or not. I like to look to Virginia Woolf because she live before meds became a common treatment and she was creative with a loving husband and sister. She still killed herself. Was it because her manic depression progressed or had she lived with her childhood trauma too long and couldn't do it anymore? Meds might have saved her but would they have saved her books? I don't pretend to know the answer to either question.


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I am a poet. I have had my poetry published in reputable publications. I am diagnosed with bipolar disorder and am very dissociative. When I'm hypomanic poetry flows into my mind and onto the page. I've also been an artist and a craftsperson all of my life. When the depression/agitation hits - especially as I've gotten older (I'm 51) - I am completely unable to do ANY kind of creative work because I am CRAZY. Medication allows me to be stable. it does not "flatten" my personality, it does not rob me of my creativity. For the most part, after the side effects subside, meds allow me to be my best and most productive self. Over the past four and a half decades in addition to private therapy and psychiatric care I have regularly attended support groups. I have noticed that those who are not severely and dangerously mentally ill can opt whether or not to be on meds much, much more easily than those who are severely and dangerously mentally ill. The biggest reason for that is that those who are severely and dangerously (a danger to themselves and/or others) mentally ill eventually wind up in either the criminal justice system or wind up, often repeatedly, in a psych inpatient unit. Or both, as I have, due to situations that escalated and became violent while I was in a manic state. Were I to go off meds I would be taking an enormous risk with my life. There are those of us for whom psych meds are not an option if we want to stay alive, stay out of jail, stay out of the hospital, and live fairly functional lives.

The age-old argument of "shall I be true to my art or to my meds" really doesn't need to be a question in our time. Actually, Patty Duke wrote quite eloquently about this issue in her bios. I fully believe that Virginia Woolfe would have lived for, and been productive for, many more years if she had had access to the psychiatric treatments we have access to today. I believe that Sylvia Plath would have remained alive, immensely creative, and able to be a mother to her children had she had the opportunities that today's psych meds would've given her. Instead, she tragically died at age 30 and left her children motherless. Neither of her children have children of their own, and Sylvia's son followed in his mother's footsteps and suicided a few years ago. Oh, the tragedy of that ripple effect.

There are so many great artists of many mediums that didn't survive. Who knew if their art would have their survived if they had been kept stable by medications. That's part of their mythical legacy. We really dont know what would have become of Sylvia Plath or Virginia Woolf? Jackson pollak created his best work when he wasnt medicated and in his manic phases. And what would have become of Marilyn Monroe if she had been given the help she really needed?

A wonderful film that explores this is "The Soloist" with Jamie Foxx. It was out a few years ago and is about a brilliant, Juliard trained cellist who suffers from schizophrenia and ends up homesless. It is true, based on an article in (I think) the New Yorker. The writer of the article befriended him after seeing him playing in the street. He tried to help him get treatment and to also start playing again. It very relevant to this topic of art, mental illness and medication.

Wow, thanks for the movie info. I'll definitely check that out.

"Art vs meds" is not the question. Each person decides best for themselves. I can do work while on meds. It just isn't the work I am reaching for. Virginia Woolf was offered some sort of medication or treatment and chose not to do it. She also chose not to have children. I'm sure there is a connection. Even today there is stigma over the choice not to have children. She made those choices true to herself and contrary to what society said she should do. If you put someone on meds they would not survive any better if it is antecedent to their nature. They might be living but not really alive. It might sound hypocritical for a depressed person but it really isn't.

Look at it this way... There are people that partake in extreme sports. They know the risks. A lot of people don't understand why they would do it yet they do. I doubt they would trade death at an old age for being alive either. We put too much emphasis on living over being alive.

I can't remember the movie and I don't even know if I have it right.,. "It is what we settled for." That is so true.

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Hello everyone, thank you for continuing your participation in my thread. It has been very educational for me.

I want, and believe we should, keep this discussion civilized and polite. We wouldn't be humans if we didn't have differing opinions. Thankfully most if not all of us live in countries where we try to respect and value our differences. Please, no name calling or insulting of any kind. It may not sound as an insult to you, but if the recipient has his or her feelings hurt, it is. If your comment isn't remotely related to the subject, keep it to yourself or post it elsewhere.

I believe we wrongly use the word "holistic". When I hear/read this word, I think that it refers to, focuses on non-western style medicine, no doctor, no hospital, and no pharmaceutical oriented methods of treatment. Instead it focuses on everything from acupuncture, to EFT, to EMDR, to meditation, to nutrition, to flower essences. I looked up the word "holistic" in the Webster Medical Dictionary and it said the following:

ho·lis·tic adjective \hō-ˈlis-tik\ (Medical Dictionary)
Medical Definition of HOLISTIC
1: of or relating to holism
2: relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts <holistic medicine attempts to treat both the mind and the body>

Based on this definition, when we talk about holistic treatment we should include, doctors, hospitals, pharmaceuticals into the definition. After all, holistic refers to the whole.

That said, we all agree there are two very distinct paths for treatment, one that focuses more on a Western approach of doctors, hospitals, and pharmaceuticals, and another, an alternate approach which includes Eastern elements like acupuncture and meditation, biological component such as nutrition, physical component such as physical exercise, and other therapies, EMDR, DBT, flower essences, etc.

One of the challenges I experience with this disease is that I tend to view things in black and white. I'm more likely to think this way when I'm in crisis. I rarely see the shades of grey options while in crisis. All I want is that pill to make it feel better so that I can quiet my brain enough to begin to see the alternative adjunct options.

My belief was molded by my parents, by the culture in which I was raised, by the lack of information available to me on alternative options during my formative years, and my lack of belief that an alternative option will perform as well as what I am used to. I've been known to try acupuncture, chiropractor, tinctures, flower essences, essential oils, Reiki, etc (yes I've lived in Boulder and FT. Collins). However, in crisis, the alternative options are the first to go. It goes back to belief, I believe, not quite blindly, in "western medicine". I want to believe in alternative options, but I question them, I lack trust in them. In my black and white brain, if I'm having an anxiety attack at a public function I know I can take a Klonopin and within a few minutes I will begin to feel calmer. In the same situation without the Klonopin, I'm not sure what I would do. I do carry a Jasmine essential oil roll-on stick to breath when I'm not feeling well, I could order a cup of camomile tea if available, I could go into the restroom and do a few cycles of EFT or meditate. None of these seem practical while attending a public function, and waiting until I get back to my meditation room is not going to make my anxiety disappear.

Venus, in one of your posts you stated: The problem is... meds don't always make life better. And more meds doesn't make it more better, but yet doctors just keep throwing more and more meds on many people, seing side effects as symptoms.
You are correct, meds don't always make life better. Is this a belief statement, or a statement of fact? A couple of years ago I was having severe problems with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. It was so bad that it radiated to my neck and my arms were numb. I started with chiropractic and acupuncture treatments and notice little or no improvement after two months. Fed up with the pain, I made an appointment with a neck and spine surgeon, because based on what the acupuncturer and chiropractor had determined, they were convinced I had some serious nerve compression in C5-C6. The western surgeon, examined me, sent me for an MRI, and a nerve conduction study. Turns out I do have issues with C5-C6, but it wasn't the cause of my problems. My problems came because the Carpal Tunnel in my hands is quite narrow and years of repetitive motion have aggravated the area to the point where the opening for the median nerve was not large enough. A 20 minute surgery, a week of stitches, some physical therapy and I'm cured. Could the acupuncture and chiropractic resolved the problem in time? I don't know. Would I have had more success if I believed in acupuncture and chiropractic as much as I believed in the power of the surgeon to cure me? I don't know.
Your other statement referencing that doctors just throw more medicine at the problem, perhaps they do. But you, as the patient and responsible for your body, should and must take the initiative to learn a bit about what is going on and should and must tell the doctor that something isn't working, or that you don't want that particular medicine. Back to the definition of holistic, you should be able to have a frank discussion with your doctor and you should be able to design a course of treatment that agrees with your consciousness and the doctor's expertise. If you, as a patient, choose to let the doctor shove pills down your throat, the only one at fault is you.

It's funny that determining the best course of action for treatment of a mental health condition goes back to the brain. What does your brain tell you to believe? Can you negotiate with your brain to expand your options (if this is a path you chose). Can you somehow believe, or begin to believe in things you never thought to be true and effective or poisonous and damaging?

We are our own best "medical professionals" we've lived with this thing for so long, we've done so much research on our own. We should work cooperatively with our medical and other professionals. We should never allow one of them to shove down our throats something we don't agree with or understand. This might have been the standard operating procedure last century, but not today in 2014. Stand up for your rights and your health.

Sorry for the dissertation and again, thank you for your great contributions.

"I believe we wrongly use the word "holistic". When I hear/read this word, I think that it refers to, focuses on non-western style medicine, no doctor, no hospital, and no pharmaceutical oriented methods of treatment. Instead it focuses on everything from acupuncture, to EFT, to EMDR, to meditation, to nutrition, to flower essences. I looked up the word "holistic" in the Webster Medical Dictionary and it said the following:"

I agree wholeheartedly but I have struggled with how to address it many times. I don't like alternative because it has so many connotations. Half these things aren't or shouldn't be alternative anyway. I don't really like eastern medicine because that is only accurate for certain treatments. I use holistic, personally because I am including doctors however that is not what people think of and a lot of doctors would say they are not trained as holistic professionals if you tried to address it that way. If you want holistic care that includes meds you are pretty much on your own in most places. I actually like "patient centered" but that usually refers to type of practice in an office setting although that is really not correct either.

I tend to think of psychotrophic drugs differently than other classes of drugs because most other drugs have clear, measurable results. Psychotrophic drugs are the only group that considers symptomatic treatment a success. Just about every type was "discovered" by accident or as a side effect of something else. It is not like any other medical specialty.

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I was born and raised in Northern California. Folks out here essentially invented the conception of holistic medicine. While the rest of the nation was calling meditation and yoga "satanic", while the rest of the nation referred to acupuncture, reiki, aura readings, etc. as bunk, we were ot here doing our thing. I find it amusing that 40 years after I started getting involved with holistic practices (and could never dare to communicate with "non-believers" about alternative medicine and spirituality for fear of being shunned), suddenly doctors across the nation are recommending things like mindful meditation. Alternative medicine has now become big business. People talk about big pharma being greedy HA. Try acupuncture, herbal medicine, yoga classes, etc.! You have to be wealthy, hands down. For example, I saw an acupuncturist for some years when I had the $$$ to do so. Acu was tremendously helpful for the problems I was having. But the time came when I simply could not afford the treatments anymore.

Michanne, there doesn't seem to be anything I or anyone who doesn't 100% agree with you can post that doesn't cause you to become defensive. I really don't know what you want to hear, unless it's "You're right".

Courtesy of Obama Care Mandate, everyone must have health insurance. Some include pharmaceutical. We tend to use insurance to cover therapist, psychiatrist, hospitalization and meds. Our out of pocket is less than full cost.

If you go the other route, very few insurance companies cover a limited number of acupuncture and chiropractic. They don't cover yoga, meditation classes, reiki, supplements, nutritional consultations, exercise classes, etc.

I wonder what costs the individual more, paying the insurance monthly payments, the out of pocket expenses, the deductible, and the non-allowable for UCR. Or paying for all the treatments that are not covered by insurance.

Just a question in the middle of the night still avoiding (since Tuesday) moving boxes and moving out of this place.

thank you

OK, I'm not a moderator, but I started this thread and I don't want to see it deteriorate into stealth insults. I'm the queen of these and I have noticed it several times already. Apologies for mentioning names, hope I'm not offending you or entering into your private space.

First Michanne. It is obvious Michanne has been around for a while and is very knowledgeable in the area she finds important. You may not agree with her beliefs or delivery method (writing skills) or even the area she holds dear to her heart. First, we must respect her beliefs. We don't have to agree with them, we can list the reasons why we don't agree with them, but we don't have the right to tell her he is wrong in her beliefs. Whether we like it or not there are no right or wrong answers in mental health diseases. It is what we believe that will helps us and how we apply it. One size does not fit all in this challenge.

Sister rags, Michanne has the right to feel as sensitive as she desires. Her feelings of sensitivity should not affect how others feel. And you shouldn't really tell her she is too sensitive. Perhaps you can rephrase it as, "I noticed I have said some things that have upset you. I do not want to upset you. Can you give me some ideas on how I communicate with you in a manner that won't hurt you?"

As a personal example, I absolutely hate snowboarding and free style park skiing. I wish ski areas would have the right to ban them from their slopes. I think it is dangerous, the participants are wreckless, and they take over valuable terrain that use to belong to us skiers. I'm entitled to that opinion, I am entitled to share my opinion, but I'm not entitled to shove my opinion down someone's throat because they don't agree with me.

Sewer rat, this is the first time I've met you and other than not really seeing you keep to the topic, I can't say much. However, I can express my feelings. I don't know what your deal is with Michanne, but it is absolutely unprofessional to drag you personal issues in a thread that doesn't address the issue that upsets you. Take it as you wish, I am just expressing my opinion.

Sorry to play moderator. Sorry if I have overstepped my boundaries. My intent was not to single out individuals. My intent is to encourage respect and non-confrontational dialog. I believe we can learn a lot from this thread if we share without fear of repercussion and we respect each other. For example, I am the poster child for pharmaceuticals, but I'm curious how other tools have helped others. An example, I would love if Michanne would share with me/the group what changes she made in her nutrition. When I hear change your diet, I hear give up everything I like, in particular steak and stinky cheeses and adopt a rabbit food diet. I can't do that. I suspect Michanne might have some food ideas and recipes that may give me a reason to explore improving my nutrition. Perhaps she can also share with me what differences she noticed when she adopted the changes.

Thank you everyone for your participation; and Michanne sorry I put you so much on the spot. I hope I did not make you feel too uncomfortable. I do appreciate the knowledge you have shared with me.

I put myself in a target position by being opinionated I won't stop being opinionated and it doesn't mean I or anybody else is right

I wasn't disagreeing regarding the word "holistic". I was saying that I don't know what word to use to describe a "holistic" treatment plan without being accused of being anti med which always veers the discussion away from the topic. And I hate "anti med" vs "pro med" most of all. And I went through the rest of the options...

I have sewer on ignore so I have no idea what he wrote. The flag system is flawed in that every time he gets flagged the entire thread gets shut down and I don't think that is fair.

Thanks for your support and ideas

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