Suboxone and Subutex(buprenophrine) for depression

Just from some brief online reading, I'm
Interested in feedback or experience on these meds for the off label use for treatment of chronic depression.
These are meds for treatment of opiod dependency/withdrawal.
I'm at a roadblock with depression. Im not Willing to Risk side effects from
Drugs like Abilify.
I've tried to find my own mix that will work- sometimes Xanax and Nuvigil but I have a general sense of well being when I take butalbital and caffeine(fioricet) but thats just for my headaches. I don't have an addictive personality for drugs. Sometimes I wait too long before realizing I should just take a Xanax.

Input is appreciated. I hope somJeone has heard of this..
Thanks,
Heather

Your p-doc prescribed suboxone for depression? Wow...it sounds like you have a really good p-doc, if s/he isn't afraid to go outside the box and try something like that. (I'm sorry...I don't have any experience with the combination you're asking about.)

Hi Heather,

Can I ask why you're looking for drugs for opioid withdrawal if you don't have addition issues?

For off-label antidepressants, I've taken stimulants, which helped tremendously. I never liked Ritalin too much, but Adderall and Dexedrine were very helpful. I don't think they are the best idea for a long-term plan, but for the short-term, they are very effective.

I have never heard of a doc prescribing opiates for depression and I don't think one ever would.

I am a recovering drug addict and alcoholic so have some experience with opiates. I have to say they are the best anti depressant I have ever taken. However the addiction and withdrawal from them is not at all worth it. You don't have to have an addictive personality to get addicted to opiates.

I would advise the whole world to stay as far away from opiates as possible except for pain management which is what they are for.

Some docs do prescribe amphetamines in rare cases for very treatment resistant depression. Taken only as prescribed and no more as they have a high potential for abuse.

If you are trying to self medicate with street drugs like sub or vicodin or benzo's or amphetamines it is a rather dangerous path. I am not saying it can't be done with much discipline. It would seem a very expensive way to go also. And can you always have a reliable source?

I would advise working with a psychiatrist but they won't give you opiates. They will give you the standard ones and try different ones. They have there draw backs but not like opiates, benzo's and amphetamines from the street.

I have actually tried vicodin for depression and it worked quite well. (from the street) The problem was tolerance build up. Very quickly went from 2 or 3 a day to 5 or 6. When I couldn't get anymore from my source I went through horrible withdrawal that made my depression much worse. Sub is not really any different. As much as I would love opiates for depression there is no way I would go there.

Actually, there is a lot of info online about prescribing Suboxone and Subutex off-label for depression. Lord knows, we sure need some new psych meds to treat depression and anxiety.

Yeah but sister it is worse than benzos and we know how you feel about those.

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Oh. Worse? Yikes. In that case, I would be concerned

Opiates. Yes

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Yes, but I know people who are on methadone, suboxone, or subutex for heroin or oxy addiction and they expect to be on the medications for years, or even for a lifetime. I'm not disagreeing with you, zinc, I'm just wondering how the treatment works if it's as addictive as street opiates?

I think it is as addictive as street opiates and can get you high. It is used a lot for heroine addiction and I am not opposed to that as with methadone. I have known many in recovery on methadone. I will have to ask my brother who is a pharmacist and sits on a board that deals with opiate treatment and the problem of prescription opiates on the streets.

My objection would be introducing someone to opiates who isn't already addicted for depression. To me the problem is tolerance build up which is worse than benzo's and the withdrawal is worse. I do know it would be effective for depression as I have tried it.....but for how long???

I did TMS with a pdoc who specialized in addiction and used sub a lot. Patients had to come in everyday or a week at most to get it. He was preventing abuse by doling it out one at a time. Methadone clinics do the same thing. Each morning they have to go in. They don't give them a stock pile or 30 days worth.

I asked my buddy tryingtosurvive to respond. He knows better than me.

I will ask my brother too.

Yeah, recovering addicts have to go get their meds every morning. Eventually, if they've been med-compliant they get prescriptions.

Anyway, yeah...let me know what you find out. I'm curious.

How do those who have legitimate needs for opioids walk that line when they are also in treatment for depression?

By legitimate needs I assume you mean pain management??? I am not sure. Does someone who takes them for pain and has depression get an anti depressant benefit from them. If that is the case I would call it a bonus. If you need to take them for legit reasons and they help with depression....all the better.

I have heard of studies where opiate use for really bad pain does not cause addiction and a high. I am not sure if this is true. If I remember right the studies were done in England for heroine and cancer patients. I believe heroine for medical use is legal there.

So I asked my pharmacist brother about it. We both agree that opiates have anti depressant properties. He has never heard of one being prescribed for depression.

Sub has been approved as a pain killer and to help addicts get off of other opiates. The initial drug company claims were that you could not get high and the withdrawals were not near as bad. They claimed that the sub would fill up all the get high receptors and it didn't matter if you took double the dose because the receptors would be full.

It turns out you can get high off of sub but not near to the extent you could off of oxy or heroin. The original plan was to put an opiate addict on sub and then wean them off over six months. This didn't turn out to well and they changed it to a year. So it turns out the withdrawal is much worse than they claimed. It is however much much better than methadone and a big improvement for the treatment of opiate addicts.

He said he knows one girl who has been on a low dose of sub for seven years but lives a full and normal life whereas she used to be a street junky. So very effective for a compliant person serious about recovery.

As far as depression we both think no go. Addiction and withdrawal to dangerous. Worse than benzo's.

One would probably have to be abusing or taking beyond recommended dosage to experience withdrawal. Also, withdrawal doesn't always equate to addiction. I could see opiate withdrawal leading to an increase of depression to someone already being treated for depressive symptoms. Although, I remember being in rehab several years back, and my roommate at the time had serious back issues from an auto accident. He was allowed to complete his entire rehab treatment plan on opiates, as it was scripted to him. But there was definitely no doubt about the physical pain he was in when he walked. And although he was in rehab to stop drinking, it was permitted in this circumstance.

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I know a number of people who were heroin or oxy addicts & are on methadone or sub and will remain on the maintenance drugs for the foreseeable future. It seems to me that the maintenance meds do have an anti-depressant effect. I dunno...with all the exceedingly severe depression and anxiety problems in the world it sure seems like research could come up with meds that work.

Any type of opiate will lead to tolerance and/or addiction. Eventually the receptors start to down regulate and more of the drug is needed. Receptors will die as they are overused, as the amount of neuronal amount continues. I find it incredible that any doc mostly pdocs world Rx opiates at most mental illness. Take them for a short ride. Just as benzodiazepines should be carefully monitored as prn!

sometimes it doesn't seem they trying though.
Why? If you can off label old stuff, or slightly alter it... and than guilt trip the crazies with "you should feel grateful for these meds?" (as many doctors do... some even have the guts to compare it to cancer treatmet).

My reasons for skepticism in drugs as cure for mental problems... it's that I think there is no way for them to "work" in the way we would like them to. By the nature of these problems that are so extremelly complex. I am skeptic that science can really help here... at least in the way they do it now.

Yeah, but every p-med is subject to tolerance, sooner or later.

Venus, yeah...I hate the p-doc attitude, too. For me, certain meds work wonders at certain times. I'd like a med that works ALL of the time, always.

hi guys-

i don't post much...

buprenophrine has been rx'd for depression. just like any med there are strong opinions if it is right or wrong to rx for us.

if you really dig into med therapies for depression/anxiety you may be surprised what you find.

also, what a particular pdoc might rx or rec. (like my old pdoc who did not frown upon marijuana for some patients.)

i think it all depends. on so so many factors. the first and foremost that though are brains are similar they are extremely unique.

about 30% of us are not getting relief from currently approved therapies. that is millions of people who are suffering. there really has not been any new treatments/drugs/etc for a very long time.

plenty of 'sister' or 'me too' drugs, but nothing really new/different.

i think it's time for psychiatry and the fda to wake-up and look at some things that they have not approved of in the past. like really look outside the box for those that are treatment resistant.

i find it ironic that the next gen of of meds may actually be opiod based. things like lsd, MDMA, ketamine, 'magic' shrooms, and more that are molecularly similar are being tested right now. look-up 'glyx-13' for example. i'm praying for that one to make it. it has some opium molecules in it.

i also like the trials/studies on more 'mild' forms of electric brain stimulation. ect was the only thing that ever brought me true remission. it just didn't last. i'm excited for 'deep' tms therapy and this funky take home 'depression helmet' that is doing well in trials. (google 'depression helmet.' i think it's from holland? may be available in less than a year. looks like pink marshmallows strapped on your head. who cares? i'll try it.)

i also feel that building and properly staffing some long-term psych facilities will be happening again. i hope. amazing how many drug rehab places there are. and, how long some insurances will let you stay there. here in the states for mental rehab? no way. just for kicks look-up how they treated depression back in the late 1800's. sure, some places were a true nightmare. but, some were actually set out in bucolic areas. light work, walking, talking, bibliotherapy, and more. meds aren't always the answer. just a thought.

this is life or death for some of us. i would not rule anything out to get some of us back to the land of living.

thanks for letting me rant.

godspeed good health to all of us.

john

Psilocin is being studied by John Hopkins. Timothy Leary kind of ruined the serious study of LSD and mushrooms.

I am not sure MDMA, Psilocin, LSD, and Ketamine are related molecularly to opiates. I don't think they are.

I would take acid or shrooms for depression way before opiates. I have my share of experience with them all and they are not at all the same as opiates to me.

Excellent post.

hi zinco.

i am not sure of the molecular structures of these 'new' meds that are being trailed. my post was mostly meant to be about the need for truly new approaches for those of us that are not getting well with what is available right now.

thanks for the reply by the way.

john

hey.

thanks sister rags. i was hoping i didn't come-off too much as a complainer. he-he

john