Raising the White Flag - I Surrender

I'm sorry I am so behind in my replies. I'm trying to take them in order, so as not to overlook anybody!

Personally, I admire your thoroughness. Thanks, peaches100!

yes, peaches, i love how you are so diligent in replying to everyone. sometimes i get overwhelmed with the number of caring responses i get and i find it hard to find something to say to everyone in turn. but i really appreciate and admire people who do take that effort - it's very heartening .

Could it be that with that question, she was leaving you space to answer "I'm ready"?

That is an interesting point....

My T sometimes suggests that he come and sit with me, but way more often than not, I have to ask. Maybe that was an invitation to let her know you ARE ready??

The other thing I wondered is, in T's eyes, what would make you "ready"? That might be worth exploring...

The specifics may not be worth talking about or even knowing. Please allow me to venture a guess in more general terms, though: when a hug or other attention would be least likely to distract someone from the exploring they're engaged in, and most likely to assist them in exploring.

Most likely, neither the therapist nor the client would want therapy to turn into a game of "How many times can I get T to hug me?" On the other hand, looking at something like, "The times when I most want a hug from T, what-all is going on with me?" could lead both of you in useful directions.

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My advice is free -- and worth every penny.

Thank you for reading my post, even though I know it brings up some very difficult emotions for you.

Treehouse said,

I agree with what you wrote. Once I accepted that I couldn't literally go back to my childhood and get what I needed, I was able to see how much T was giving to me. Now that I've let myself open up to his love and caring, it really does fill me up. He does look after me, and no one has before, and it feels good.

That is what i want too. It's not at all about me wanting my t to carry me around through life. But there's a part of me that wants very badly to be able to confront my pain of the past and experience a different outcome this time. Instead of the emptiness of feeling unworthy and unwanted, and of facing scary stuff alone, I want to feel what it is like to have a caring t with me, helping me through it this time. When i am so upset that i dissociate, it feels as if i need physical touch to actually get through to me that, yes, I am not alone, and t is there to help me get the pain out and to feel her comfort coming in. I want to feel that t is reaching out and helping and protecting that little girl in me that had no protection. And then if i could feel that experience, then over time, i would be able to learn how to confront pain and bring in comfort myself when i need to.

Notz,

Thank you for sharing that this subject touches your life too. I'm sorry it is painful for you.

Tayquincy said,

I tend to agree with treehouse. My first T did give me some of what I missed out on, and it made a huge difference in my life. I just don't think it's so black and white. I feel kinda sad when people say they have to learn how to fill themselves up, alone. Yes, no one person can fill you up but to take care of your own needs doesn't mean you are doing it alone.

I appreciate you pointing out that it's not a black or white issue. We don't have to fill ourselves up alone.

I can understand peaches that you are surrendering, but are you sure that maybe you are looking at it as either you get it all from t or you don't get anything at all?

Yes, I think maybe I am seeing it too black and white.

You said your T was willing to hug you, and you didn't accept it. Are you sure that you weren't jumping to the conclusion that she didn't really want to give it?

Actually, yes, the reason i didn't accept it was because i felt that i'd had to get hurt/upset a few times before she seemed willing. I took that to mean that she didn't really want to give me a hug, and i didn't want a hug that was forced.

Perhaps she was hesitant because you seemed ambivalent about it. Didn't you say she got mixed messages from you? Are you sure you weren't afraid to accept it?

She did tell me that i appear ambivalent about it, where i will ask for a hug but do not really seem to want it. In the past, she has also told me that she senses a "come nearer, no, go away" way i have of relating. She is right, in a way. I mean that i really feel that i want and need that safe comforting touch. But i think that because nurturing touch in my childhood was mixed with SA, my autonomic nervous system goes into a kind of freeze/anxiety mode. I've told my t this, and i think it makes her not want to hug me. but i told her i want that small traumatized part of myself to get over the fear of safe comforting touch. I want to undo the link with past abuse. I dunno. I just get the sense that she might not want to take the chance with me, and it makes me sad.

I have my own difficulties with physical touch, and want a hug from T but am afraid to ask. I plan to ask next session. It's scary.

I applaud your courage. I don't know why i can't get the words out.

Congratulations on your graduation!

I think it's healthy to accept reality, but just make sure you know what reality is. Reality is your T cares very much about you, has been there for you.

Thanks for reminding me of this. I know you're right. I guess what happens is that if there is an upset or disappointment in my relationship with t, it makes me doubt all over again whether she truly cares about me. Kind of like, "I must have been wrong in the past when I thought she cared. I should have known i was wrong and should not have let myself feel good about the relationship before!" It's hard for me to hang onto the good caring things she's done when something bad happens between us.

Deliquesce said,

pdoc cares about me even when i can't (or won't) care for me. and somehow, this manages to fill me up enough that i'm strengthened to try again.

That is what i think also, that i need t to fill up some of what is missing. Once she does this, I will not feel so empty but will get that warm good connected feeling. Then, because of feeling that good connection and warmness in my heart, I will feel stronger and more able to keep going in my therapy and putting one step ahead of the other (which eventually will lead me to being a more independent person).

I really strongly feel that way because the few times my t has done something to help me feel truly connected and cared about, I've left her office feeling happier and stronger. I didn't feel like i needed to email her so much between sessions because she had partly filled me up and i could feel that inside me, and it was fuel that i could use as i continued living my life during the following days. I do not believe, at least for myself, that her providing nurturing and hugs would lead me to want more and more from her. When i get what i need from her, i then seem to need less, at least for a time, as i can hang onto that good feeling.

and then i look around and am surprised! that there are other people in my life who care for me also. weird stuff, eh? but yeah, i didn't accept people's caring or love very well before pdoc.

So it sounds like being open to t's caring and nurturing made you able to open up to others who wanted to offer you connection. I think that is a good thing. Don't t's say that they are "modeling a healthy relationship" for us? If we want them to show their caring and provide comfort (which can include hugs) -- and they do that -- and it helps fill that void that has been empty so long in us -- and allows us to then open up more fully in connection to others -- then isn't that one of the big goals of therapy?

This has been so so so true for me. I never ever believed that anyone (including H) actually loved me, because I was convinced that I was unlovable. I felt like I had to work and work to support my friends, but that I could never ask for support for myself.

That has changed in a lot of ways. Sometimes, I really do believe that H and my friends love me. I used to have this BIG wall up and couldn't let love in. Now I can let a little in.

I was thinking about this today, because of what I am going through with my mom. I KNOW my friends will support me and love me through it, but I am afraid to ask. I only want T to help me right now. I'm guessing after T shows me that I deserve help and love, I'll be able to turn to my friends a bit more.

Not sure why it works that way for me, but it does.

I "get" this, Peaches. Although my T says she cannot "fill me up", she has given me some of that good warm connection you talk about. It does make me more able to take steps toward independence. It's just hard to find the line between dependence and independence, like I said before.

I think it's hard to predict how you feel after the hugs. It could be that yu are satisfied, or it could be that you aren't. But I understand the feeling of being cared about making you need her less. That happens to me with my T. It just happened with the recent phone call. But I was the strong one first, and then she responded to it. So maybe it's a little different.

She was happy at my making steps to become more independent and said that I can call her if I miss her. I felt like she understood me! Acknowledging that I'm going to miss her and that it's okay to call makes me feel loved by her, and makes me feel like I can move away because I know she will still be there any time. So, I "get" what you mean. But, if she hugged me at each session, or told me how much she cared all the time, I don't know how I would feel. I think I might depend on her to make me feel good. I think it might backfire. Maybe not for you, but I think it's something to think about.

Yes, it's a big goal of therapy. But ARE you opening up more fully in connection to others? Or, if your T were to hug you, would you be so content that you wouldn't make steps to reach out to others? There's got to be a balance. Both views are correct; there's no right or wrong, but it's what is best for you. I also think you should ask your T how you can tell her you are ready to accept a hug, or how she will know you are ready. I think she should tell you, not leave you in the dark about it.

Hang in there, Peaches. It will work out.

Thanks for your support, Exoticflower. Maybe we can figure this thing out together. . .

Imapatient said,

I think of therapists as being like training wheels. As a kid, one day one fell off as I was riding my bike, and I was o.k., I could keep riding --I was able to do it. And then I kept riding with only one after that day. Then at a later date the other fell off while riding and I was able to keep riding without it, too. *

That is such a good example, Imapatient! T's do act somewhat like training wheels. They help stabilize us on our journey, but we eventually need to travel on our own. As our strength gets greater, our need for their support lowers.

I really think that i am just not ready to take the training wheels off yet. I still have a need for them. But perhaps i can start thinking about what it will take (what i need to do) to get to the point where i feel more confidence in my own ability to "cycle" through life.

Hi Sannah,

I appreciate your concern for me. But to be honest, i still can't get a handle on why you think wanting my t to provide physical comfort when i'm in need of it is "chasing something that is not going to heal" me. Why do you feel this way? Several people here on the board have expressed how having their t provide physical comfort and nurturing acceptance have helped them progress, to move forward. I don't understand why you don't believe that receiving comfort when i'm in distress would be a good step in my healing journey. Could you please explain more?

for what it's worth, peaches - my pdoc has never once touched me, never even shook hands. hugs i think would be totally out of the question.

he fills me up in other ways... he gives me compliments, undivided attention, empathises with me, radiates warmth... so i dont think it's essential that your T gives you hugs (even though this may be what you want) but it IS necessary that she fills you up somehow.

many Ts are reluctant to gives hugs because it can lead to trickier ethical situations down the track. it's sad, but it's something they have to consider to protect their professional interests.

I am glad that you are patient with me Peaches!

Peaches, I just think that you are putting too much healing power into this hug. You have discussed it with your T, you explain above how your T sees your ambivalence about it. Healing has a lot more to do with it than hugs. It appears that you are not making progress on this front with your T. I just see you as stuck on this thing that you aren't making progress on.

The other people who are receiving physical comfort might also not have your ambivalence and they might also be making progress on the other types of intimacy with their T's which is not physical.

You wrote above that one thing going wrong with your T makes you doubt everything else. This could be something to work on. I guess I just see this as many issues that you have the power to work on instead of you getting stuck on your therapist doing something that isn't happening at this moment. When I hit a road block I try to find another way around it. I don't keep ramming into a road block that isn't moving at the time. This has always served me well...........

I know that I am not explaining myself well. Thank you for your patience in continuing to discuss this with me.

Luce,

I do understand what you are saying about feeling wanting and unfulfilled if we look to someone else to fill a need for us and it doesn't happen. But when do you "give up" on having a need met?

I don't believe that, as adults, we meet all of our own needs. For example, if we're a parent who works and we have young children, we need someone to babysit. We have a need, and we want somebody else to meet that need. Would we tell ourselves, "It's wrong to ask a babysitter to babysit because I'm the parent/adult and it's my responsibility to watch my own children. I should not ask them to meet my needs." Would you give up in getting that need met?

Or say you're a hard working employee and you believe you deserve a raise. (In fact, you really need the raise because of the economy.) Can you meet your own need and grant yourself the raise?? Or must you ask your boss for the raise and be dependent on whether or not she chooses to meet your need? Would you refuse to ask for the raise, believing that being an adult means not being dependent on somebody else meeting your needs?? How easily will you give up in getting your boss to meet your need?

Another example: Let's say you're married, and your spouse is not at all interested in having sex. However, you do want to be intimate with your spouse and recognize that you have needs in this area. Will you give up in trying to get your mate to be intimate with you, figuring that it's up to you to meet your own needs for sex? Or will you keep trying?

The fact is that even as adults, we are in many ways dependent on other people to meet our needs. There are some needs that we may not be able to meet on our own. I do not believe wanting a therapist to meet certain needs is wrong. I agree that, at some point, if what we need is not forthcoming, we will have to accept it and find a Plan B. But I do not believe that trying to get somebody to meet a need of ours is necessarily bad just because we're adults.

How strongly we perceive our need will determine how hard, and for how long, we will try to get that need met.

Luce,

PS - Maybe my problem is in not knowing how long to try and/or when to give up in trying to get my t to meet a need I have. . .

Sunrise,

That's kind of how I feel too. I never had an expectation that my T would completely fill the hole inside. Maybe I'm not as honest as some of you. My T is very caring and we are very close. I really like our relationship and don't wish it were different. Maybe I just have lower expectations than some people, the if-I-don't-expect-much-I-won't-be-disappointed attitude. I know this is a protective mechanism. Sometimes I do feel like a dog, cowering and wagging its tail, scarfing up scraps that are thrown my way. From that mindset, what T has given me is phenomenal. I don't have to beg for scraps. He just gives freely and willingly! One day, he fed me a loaf of carrot cake.

I actually think your mindset is better than mine, because you don't have alot of expectations for your t to meet needs or do things for you. Therefore, when he does, it probably feels like a bonus. I can see how high expectations from our t's can be a setup for disappointment, as Luce said in her post. If you expect it, then you feel awful when it doesn't happen. I know that has happened with me and my t, regarding the hugs.

You mentioned that you had 20 years of unfulfillment in your marriage, and that t is not filling up that need, but talking to him about it is really helping you. I wonder if talking to my t about my need, but not asking her to fill it, would benefit me somehow? Or would it just reinforce the fact of me not getting the need met? I dunno.

In reading and replying to people's posts about my asking my to meet my need for physical comfort versus meeting my needs myself, other questions are popping up. I need to throw them out there because they are starting to roil around in my head too much:

When deciding whether or not to ask somebody to meet a need of ours. . .

How can we determine when an expectation is too high, and we should give up in asking someone to meet a need?

How can we determine when the need is reasonable, necessary, and something we should not give up easily on?

Who decides if the person requesting the need is asking "too much?"

How should you go about getting a need met if you are unable to meet it yourself?

My mind is kinda blank about a lot of stuff at the moment, but I have a perspective on some of the questions you asked above, Peaches.

We have the right to ask for someone to give us something we want or need. We can literally ask anything. it doesn't have to pass a test that judges whether it is an appropriate request or not.

The person we ask has the right to determine if they will fulful the request or not. They do not need to justify their response, whether we like that or not. That can say "Yes, I can do that for you" or "No, I'm not going to do that for you right now."

For instance: Peaches - I *really* need someone to send me a smiley face right now (really, I need one) Can you please send me one?

And Peaches: I *really* need someone to so this assignment for me tonight so I can sleep - I am so exhausted. (Seriously, I am totally shattered and I don't know how I can possibly finish this tonight, have time to sleep AND be ready to deliver it as a 20 minute solo presentation first thing in the morning.) Can I email what I've done so far to you, and you send it back to me when you've finished it??? (I need it completed within 8 hours please) That would be so helpful - thank you!

(It doesn't hurt to ask, right??! )

But, I hope you get what I mean. It is up to you - the person who has been asked - to 'judge' whether you can or will or want to fulfil a request or not. It's up to you to judge whether you think it is appropriate, do-able, within your capabilities, reasonable or whatever.

And I've run out of words now.

Hmmm, how to put this? I'm half wishing a few others will have a go at answering you first...

Those are all reasonable questions, Peaches, and I'm sure in time you (and perhaps others here) will come up with some reasonable answers for them. In some more time, you'll come up with other reasonable answers, too. The trouble is that no reasonable answer to your reasonable questions can possibly get you any closer to what you're looking for. To put it another way: answering those questions in every possible way would be like looking carefully through every number in the phone book hoping that one of the numbers will turn out to be not just another number but -- an apple.

Go ahead and work on those questions till you're good and ready to let them go. When you're ready to consider it, here's what I'd suggest as a new question for you. It's not at all a trick question, though I wouldn't be surprised if it looked like one to you at first:


I don't always answer that question the same way myself, and I certainly don't presume to guess how you'll answer it. I submit, though, that if you can say for sure how you know, then that should already point you in the right direction and give you something of a handle on your problem. If, on the other hand, you should find that you actually don't know whether you have needs or not, then it would seem to follow that you don't really know whether you have a problem, either.

I used to assume that if it was possible to have any given problem, I probably had it; and that having a problem and not realizing it was always worse than not having that problem but thinking I did. Nowadays, though, I generally wait for a problem to knock on my door and announce itself before I'll let it in.

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I like Luce's answer, too.