Raising the White Flag - I Surrender

I dont know if this will be helpful or if I am going off track - still a bit loopy from a hit on the head so forgive me if i wnader off on a tangent ....
oops like now!

I saw t today and we did some work on SA and the child that needed to be loved and protected in the right way - who needed to know she counted as a person and that she had the right to exist, the right to be heard, the right to be held in a safe way the right to be healed.... and I realised I can never go back - yes I know that sounds dumb - but part of me always thought I would be able to go back and hold that child while she cried and make her whole again -lead her out of the cold dark rain into the sunshine where she could play... at last.. be a child at last....

today I realised that will never happen.. I can't change the past - those needs she had... I had as a child were not met and will never be met as the past is dead and gone..

All I can try to do is look after the me that is now.... she is all I have - if this sounds sad then its because Im sad... I have to try to find what she that is me needs now and try to meet those needs in the present - dont know if that makes any sense..... I say she that is me cos after I was attacked there is a new me from the one before the attack... my life was shattered and that is when the she that is me was born... I dont like her much but she is all I have...

As to touch - I shake T's hand at the end of each session - its the closest to a hug I will ever get (not allowed in OZ) and it is a way to make human contact with T at each session - a way of reminding myself that what is happening is real.

Anyway - like I said - it may just be the concussion talking.....

(((peaches))) a wall of hugs to keep you safe

Hope it is not too late:

I was watching part of the Senate committee testimony by General McChrystal (sp?) and others yesterday, and at the end something that struck me was the comment of one of the Senators welcoming the families of the military men testifying, saying that their support was one of the essentials in the lives of those men. So even "high-ups" recognize the need of military types for support, and that they could not achieve what they have without that support. I took that as a validation of the need for support, that we do not do it all by ourselves.

Yes! You would not be having this conversation if your T hugged you. You are having this conversation, however, because your T hugging you is not working out. My point throughout this whole thread has been it is time for plan B. How many times do you have to bang your head on the wall before it becomes too much?

Furthermore, it is my belief that your T not hugging you has a lot to do with where you are at at the moment. Where you are at is ambivalence/fear of intimacy. I believe that this is what you should be working on at the moment.

As I have said many times before I feel like you are placing this hug on the healing pedestal and you are worshipping it. Many people can have physical contact that means nothing to them, physical contact where they are cut off emotionally from it or anxious about it. Instead of putting the cart in front of the horse I would suggest working up to the physical contact instead of wanting it first and then working backwards.

Sannah: What do you mean by a core need? Thanks.
Peaches: Sorry I don't know what more to say. I'm following your thread and I know you can work through these issues.

oops, I meant the word "core" to be bold.

Sometimes when we have a need that's not met (or something we need to say but can't get ourselves to say it) it starts to affect our therapy in a really negative way. I think part of the problem is that the answer from your T, Peaches, is sort of "maybe". Maybe you can have a hug, maybe not. It's hard to let something like that go.

My T gives me pretty much everything I ask for (because I am ridiculously spoiled). I've asked for everything from hugs, to sitting together on the couch, to lighting a decorative candle on his shelf, to sitting in his office chair or his therapist chair, etc., etc., etc. When I ask for something I can have, the answer is "yes" and I get it.

I've asked him for things I can't have too, though. Once I asked him if I could wear his watch (I know I am weird)and he absolutely wouldn't let me. I even kind of begged a little, and the answer was a kind but firm "NO". I've asked him if we could destroy the box on his desk that another client made. "NO". It was easy to let those things go, because there was no "maybe". It's just "no way".

I think if I had something sort of dangling over my head (like this hug), I would totally obsess about it.

I've found that asking for what we need OR talking about what we're afraid to talk about really clears the way to move forward in therapy. When I felt like I had a crush on T, I didn't want to say anything and it turned into this HUGE THING in my head. When we talked about it, it pretty much dissipated. It's not a big deal now.

When I knew that I "might" get a hug from T, it was this huge deal in my mind. I was scared of it, I wondered when it would happen, I wondered what it would feel like, etc, etc. When the hug happened, the mystery of it was GONE. I didn't have to spend any mental energy wondering about it anymore. Now hugging is a very normal part of my therapy, it's comfortable, and it's not scary or really a big deal in a positive way either. But knowing I "might" be able to have one and not getting one would be a big deal.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but I just feel like I "get" why you're stuck right here. A firm "NO" from T would force you to go with "Plan B" like Sannah mentioned. A "YES" from T would result in a hug and you could move forward. A "maybe" is a very stuck place to be.

I hope you can get this resolved soon, Peaches. I know it's really hard for you.

P7, are you OK ?!?!?!?!

This is just something that I just came up with here at that moment. Things that would not be core needs would be the examples that Peaches gave - needing a babysitter or a raise.

I think that one of the core needs is being able to comfort ourselves (even though when someone else does it too it sure does feel great! But we can't wait around for someone else to do it if someone else isn't available). Again, there is nothing wrong with getting some help with this. Another core need is believing in ourselves and who we are even when we are receiving a lot of opposition. #3) believing that we have value (self worth), #4) controlling our boundaries (no one can ever do this for you, though, some people are better than others with violating boundaries less often), #5) regulating/expressing our emotions, #6) being in charge of working through our issues. Therapy is much more successful this way and it helps to empower yourself. #7) being empowered and in control of your life.

Peaches,

Do you want a hug, or do you want more of a consistently physical comforting from your T? Although my T did hug me yesterday, I know she would not be willing to comfort me that way during times of extreme pain. She will hold my hand occasionally to help me get grounded, but she won't try to take away the pain for me. In fact, she wants me to feel the pain and process it, using DBT skills when it gets too overwhelming. Little by little, it gets easier and hurts less. My T is a DBT/CBT therapist and is really big on exposure therapy, so she wants me to feel the pain and learn to move beyond it.

Keep in mind a hug is over in a few seconds and it can be disappointing if you have expectations that it will be a magic cure. It really won't solve all your problems or ease all your pain.

peaches asked:

When deciding whether or not to ask somebody to meet a need of ours. . .

How can we determine when an expectation is too high, and we should give up in asking someone to meet a need?
none of our 'needs' or 'wants' are too high - they just are .

'expectations', on the other hand, are an interpersonal concept - we expect someone else to give us something, whatever that something may be. as such, expectations (and the delivery of them) are negotiated between both people in that relationship - either party has the right to say 'yes' or 'no', or to enter into negotation about how else to work around the issue. i think a certain amount of respect for each other is required in these situations - recognising that the other party can do whatever they please, and that we dont have a right to hassle them (although we do have a right to ask for this need/want to be met elsewhere, by someone else who is willing to do so).

e.g., at the beginning of each semester when i meet my new lecturers, they spell out what they will/will not do as part of their teaching role. i can expect them to deliver lectures, put up teaching materials, and refer me on to further texts to read. some are open to receiving emails from students to clarify course material, others only allow you to ask them stuff during their consultation hour. sometimes, as students, we will ask them to help us out - e.g., putting up the lecture notes a day in advance so we can print them out and take it to the lecture with us. if they say yes, then it becomes an expectation that we hold them to (hahah, we complain SO LOUDLY if they forget to do something they say they will). if they say no, we try to explain why it would be useful, but if they remain adamant, then it's just something we respect and let go.

How can we determine when the need is reasonable, necessary, and something we should not give up easily on?
if it is a "need" - then it necessary, and not something you should give up on. if it is a "want" - then you can determine whether it is something that will have such a huge impact on your life that you will be appreciably worse off not getting it met.

e.g., we all have a need for clothing that is appropriate to the climate we live in. i would never suggest that someone who is naked give up on trying to find clothes (it's something integral to keeping our bodies warm and well regulated).

on the other hand, some of us have a want/desire for those clothes to also be fashionable. some people recognise we can't always get this want met (i dont have enough money to continually update my wardrobe), but it's ok because i don't think wearing fashionable stuff is going to greatly add to my life anyway. there are other people, however, who would be devastated if they could not update their wardrobe every 2 months. that's ok for them if they can afford to do so, but i would probably gently challenge that idea if they weren't in a position to get that want met.

Who decides if the person requesting the need is asking "too much?"
the person who is being asked! in a really silly example: say i went a doctor, and wanted them to give me some medicine because i had the flu really bad. even though it is a reasonable expectation (defined by social roles), the doc might have some weird thingy going on and be all OH NO!!! giving you medicine would be too much for me to bear, i cannot possibly conceive of doing that.

my immediate reaction would be: ok... that's weird. but i wouldn't keep hassling that particular dr, i'd just go on to the next one in the hopes that they would be able to help me out.

How should you go about getting a need met if you are unable to meet it yourself?
you enlist the support of someone who is qualified and prepared to help you out in that way. this could involve getting another person to do it, or getting someone to teach you how to do it yourself.

e.g., last year i needed investigative surgery to determine whether i had cancer. no one would expect me to perform that surgery myself! so i met a few surgeons, and found someone i wanted to work with and who had the skills and willingness to work with me.

after surgery, i needed to do a bit of self care stuff to make sure everything healed up properly. i was unable to meet those needs myself (did not have the skills to do so) but the surgeon was able to teach me what was required in order for me to do so.

i think the T relationship falls into the latter category: of enabling you to meet your own needs. your T is not saying "you should give up on wanting a hug from anyone, ever", she is saying "i personally will not give you a hug (right now)". it may be a human need to have physical contact with others we feel safe with (research is divided on this - some researchers believe physical contact alone is important, others believe physical contact with someone we are attached to is what's important).

but the point is, this hug from your T - that is definitely only a "want". there is nothing preventing you from becoming attached to other people, and asking them to fulfill that want for a hug. in fact, i am sure your T (and yourself) would agree this would ultimately be the best thing anyway - therapy is about taking things into our real lives, after all.

Notme9,

I appreciate how you talked about nurturing in a balanced way, by bringing out that we need to learn to nurture ourselves, but that part of learning that is, to some degree, by taking in nurturing from our t. My t has said and done things that were nurturing toward me. I think where i am stuck is that, even though she has modeled nurturing behavior, I'm still having a hard time applying nurturing feelings toward myself. It's not transferring over to me.

My therapist is trained in Internal Family Systems therapy, and she talked to me last week about having internal "parts" to our personalities that serve different functions. She believes that because i grew up in a family where i was not permitted to have negative emotions, I have tried to banish or exile parts of myself that hold emotions such as sadness, anger, disappointment, hurt, etc. In other words, I feel that it is "bad" to have those emotions. This does make sense to me. Also, I know that i have a sense of badness also due to childhood SA that i can't seem to resolve and somehow continue to feel is my fault. So I also want to banish the part of me that holds any of the feelings/reactions to that SA. On top of that, I also feel afraid to let others really know me, because i know that i am super sensitive and have emotional problems, and that in itself makes me feel ashamed.

When my t talked to me last week about all of the parts of me that i don't accept and try to "exile," it made sense to me that maybe this is the reason why i can't seem to learn to nurture myself. There is too much about me that I don't like or accept. Therefore, i resist acting nurturingly toward myself.

Also, thinking about having these inner child parts that hold onto shame, pain, anger, etc. . .

I try not to be consciously aware of them because i feel that having these traumatized child parts of my personality is what makes my life hard and makes me different and feeling like i have to hide myself from others. Sometimes i think that if i could just get rid of those parts of my personality, then i would be a normal person and would not need therapy. But my t says the key is to accept and listen to those parts of me???

I was thinking about my strong desire for my t to comfort me. . .

. . .and i think that i am actually very "AFRAID" when i think about having to nurture and take care of my needy self parts. . .those parts that are holding so many negative emotions and pain. I want to be happy and positive all the time and ignore the pain, just like my mom has always done. . .deny it. Because facing it scares me.

In thinking about learning to take care of my inner child parts, i get this visual picture of going about my adult life like i normally do, but when i get triggered, it is like having a half-dozen troubled kids dropped off at my door. One is angry and is throwing a tantrum. Another child is afraid and cowering under the kitchen table. One is whining and needy, pulling at my pant leg. While yet another one has the cabinet under the kitchen sink open and is trying to drink Draino. . .or is sneaking out the door and running out into traffic. I am scared and overwhelmed with these kids. Their emotions and needs scare me. I don't know what to do with them. I don't know how to take care of them or meet their needs. Which is why i want my t to comfort them and help with them.

It's not a matter of being lazy or not wanting to take responsibility for my life. It's a matter of being scared to death with the idea of taking care of myself, when i see everything that is inside me, all the emotions and pain and needs swirling around, all the unresolved issues, etc.

i'm flat out scared out of my wits.

Wow, peaches, this is really insightful!!!!!! Sounds like you are at your first step now to move forward. Good Work!

Holy cow, peaches - your post is amazing, and I relate to so much of what you wrote!

I've never heard of Internal Family Systems therapy, I'll have to read up on it. What your T said about internal parts makes complete sense to me, though. I also grew up in a family where we weren't allowed to show negative emotions or talk back - EVER. I know what you mean about feeling like it's "bad" to feel those negative emotions. My T thinks I internalized everything - all these years later, the idea of feeling those emotions and processing them is so scary to me!

It sounds like you have had tremendous insights. I wish you the best as you continue to work through this next part of the journey.

The key is to accept that they are there, not necessarily accept that you think they are wonderful, or that they will be there forever. If you can accept that they are there and need attention, then maybe you can pay attention to them, listen to them, learn from them...

What Sannah and dreamseeker9 said.

Also what pachyderm said......except that I'd strike the "maybe".

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Now you're cookin'!

thank you Pachy

A book on "nurturing yourself" made me cry; i got rid of it. I have puzzled over and struggled with the "I totally love and accept myself" thing for so long. It sounds sarcastic, impossible, pointless, futile, dumb.
it makes no sense to me, but this might. will work on it.

I never could do that either! You aren't alone in that.

In my experience, the way it works (quite likely the only way it can work) is that saying that you love/accept yourself (and/or that others do) triggers whatever you have in storage that says otherwise -- and you then get to look at it and deal with it (or else try to run from it).

If nothing, or nothing much, comes up to "contradict" you then you may in fact have dealt with most of your stuff already and be more or less ready to accept yourself without too much static.

BTW, what "normal" (business as usual, nothing too weird going on) looks like to me is accepting myself (and others). When I hear myself thinking about loving myself it feels as if I'm trying to make up for something I'm missing, like wanting a hug when there's no one available to give me one -- but maybe that's just me.

Where certain religious traditions speak of loving my neighbor as myself, I personally think accepting my neighbor (or so translating that passage) would work every bit as well. But I'm probably arguing semantics now, sorry!

and it seems insurmountable - unhealable (Ok just made that word up!) and you dont know where to start - because its just such a huge mess - so you start in one corner and make a small change then when that oe sinks in - another one and so on.....

SOrry for long post but wanted to say two other things

Sittingatwatersedge, I am ok - just have to be careful for next few days - amd am using the concussion as an excuse for everythig I stuff up - dont know what i will use whenIm better - will ahve to go back to I am just crazy! lol

and the love and acccept myself thing - my T does TFT - thought field therapy - like acupressure as well as other therapies cbt dbt etc, and part of it is to say I completely love and accept myself - as fool zero says it brings up things that we need to discuss and it is getting easier to say - maybe soon I will believe it - Part of it he says is for the subconscious to hear you saying the words and start making a change - take care one and all - sorry for long reply P7

My friend and I had an interesting discussion about this - I was saying how after my last session, it's getting harder for me to hear my T provide me with unconditonal positive regard, I feel like I don't deserve it. That led into a discussion about how many people actually feel unconditional positive self-regard, which to me is the same thing as loving/accepting yourself. I think we definitely have to look at all of our baggage, feel those emotions and understand them before we can fully love and accept ourselves.

that's an interesting point, dreamseeker - comparing it to the unconditional positive regard we get from our Ts. i know in my better moments (when i'm not depressed, but typically also when i am in contact with friends etc) i feel a lot of positive regard for myself. heck - i think i'm the bees knees! it's an awesome place to be.

i guess the bit i need to work on is the unconditional part. all of my self esteem flies out the window as soon as i get depressed.

(Although I'm nominally replying to Deli here, I do mean to include Peaches and everyone else in this conversation.)

When I encounter something of that sort, what I eventually notice (I'll admit I've learned to notice it a good deal faster than I used to) is that both of those opposites are actually true for me but I don't feel ready to deal with both at once, so I bounce around between them. One (at a time) feels real to me; the other doesn't, and I can't imagine how I could possibly get there from here.

Last time I found myself dealing with stuff like that regularly (I've mentioned, in another thread, that I once had a gf who showed BPD-like symptoms) I discovered two ways of "visualizing" my predicament that (incidentally or not) also helped me deal with it:

1. I pictured myself standing with one foot on each "position": I love her and I hate her. I'm in utter black despair, doubting everything I've ever said and done and I'm going on about my business doing what needs to be done and (unquestionably) producing the results I'd said I'd produce. I found I could stand in both places at once, and even stand there stably and comfortably, and after only a short while my position felt not the least bit precarious but entirely comfortable and natural.

2. I'd picture my dilemma (e.g., I love her and I hate her) as the horns of a large, rusty metal crescent three or four feet apart; grasped one horn firmly in each hand; and pulled them together. I don't know why, but picturing myself doing this gave me an "aha!" feeling of "Oh! I can do it!"

Free. Public domain. YMMV.

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Guess you had to be there.

peaches, my T is an (external) Family Systems therapist and does ego state therapy, which basically treats all of one's ego states as members of the person's internal family. It has been helpful to me to think of my ego states like that. I do have one young adult male ego state who is very brash and outspoken and does not care what people think of him. And he gets angry at the drop of a pin. He sees "red", and when he is with me, that reaction can scare me because I am not a person who really does "anger", for similar reasons to what you said above. (I was not allowed to be angry or have "negative" emotions as a child. I was also put down for having positive ones.) One of my little girl ego states held all the memories of a series of bad "incidents" from my childhood. I recovered these memories about 2 years ago and I did work on learning to comfort and nurture that little girl. She is much less divided from me now and I love her very much. I treasure her existence.

I agree with your T. Those parts hold important knowledge and capabilities and you would be less of a person without them. I am reminded of an old Star Trek episode where Captain Kirk was split into two versions of himself by a transporter malfunction: the good half and the bad half. Neither half was very functional without the other. Neither one was really "Kirk." I think it is the same with our parts. We need all of them to be whole. My male ego state was very threatened, at one point about a year ago, when it seemed to him I was doing work in therapy that might make his role superfluous. He served as my protector and I was growing so that I was learning to protect myself. If I didn't need a protector, what would he do? Would he cease to exist if his "job" was no longer needed? He was terrified of that, and during ego state therapy, T had me talk to him and try to reassure him that he would still be needed. T says that this technique is just like family therapy, but he mediates between a person's different ego states. Knowing I had this brash, strong ego state, made me feel a bit stronger myself, and more "invincible". I felt that with this guy's strengths, which I didn't have, together we could do a lot. I think it must have helped him to know that too.

That is a great description. I think your T can help you learn to help them and comfort them. Maybe you can share the visual above with her so she really sees how challenging it is. Maybe she could help you work with one at a time?

Just take it slowly, one step at a time. It would be overwhelming and impossible to untangle our knotted insides in one stroke. You just need to pick at the tangle and little by little you pull out the crooks and knots until you are all healed.

Phoenix said,

. . .how do you give your inner child somthing you never had? how do you know how to give it? my inner child doesnt belive me most of the time - she has learned not to trust . . .

The only constant is us - so I keep telling my inner child that I love her (hard to say - dont know if i believe in love or know what it is.... maybe what I feel for my kitties is love....dunno) that we are there for them - that we couldnt take care of them then - but we will try to take care of them now - and that we will never NEVER leave them alone in the dark again... maybe in time our inner child will believe us.

Phoenix,

Even though I have mixed feelings about my inner child(ren), I am still "going through the motions" of providing comforting words and reassurance when i realize those parts of me are scared, empty, or hurting. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it helps a little. I just hope that, in time, it works better. I would love to be able to comfort/reassure/help myself and not feel that i need it from t. . .but right now, i just genuinely still feel like i need it from my t.

I wish you well Be happy be safe be well[/quote]