The Darker Side of Therapy (Dealing with Therapy Dependence)

I think the author is quite misguided. The article was insulting to anyone who takes this most precious relationship seriously. I am both securely attached and dependent on my t. He has encouraged my attachment. I depend on him to be there every week, to be caring, professional and honest. If I thought he took my feelings lightly then I would quit. I love him!

I'm really not sure why it stopped hurting. Maybe I did the grieving I needed to do, and was able to move on and accept what IS there for me.

I know I have more grieving to do about some things we've touched on, and it does scare me. It's hard to delve into that pain, you know? But on the other side of the pain is joy...I know it, because I've experienced it.

You will too, Blue

Thanks Tree. I can tell you have experienced the joy. I can hear the joy, even when you are in pain, there is always so much hope.

This might sound like a weird question- but how did you grieve for the absence of the love you didnt have?

I dont think I have ever grieved it, I think I push it down somewhere and it reappears as fears like this fear of being abandoned or fear of getting close, especially to a t. Maybe this empty place inside of me is fear and sadness.

I think there is always more grieving, even if you (I) have done it before, it seems like you go through it on a deeper level when it comes up again. Even if I know there is healing on the other side, it scares me. It terrifies me.
For someone who has had a lot of therapy in my life I wonder why I am in this really bad place. Maybe I am such a tough nut to crack that I go through it in such small doses at a time. One scratch at a time....scratch the surface and back up, scratch the surface and back up. I am not real brave when it comes to pain.

I seem now to be coming to some core issues. Maybe desk-t got me to this place? Maybe. I learned a lot from her....and also learned what doesnt work.

Im rambling.....

"One scratch at a time....scratch the surface and back up, scratch the surface and back up.

I seem now to be coming to some core issues. Maybe desk-t got me to this place? Maybe. I learned a lot from her....and also learned what doesnt work. "
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just a thought here....if you scratch deep enough at one spot you will eventually break through...regardless of the surface...glass, metal,skin, whatever...it just takes time.

you can't make heal until deep inside you are ready to make progress...not saying you aren't trying...BUT rather if you aren't ready well then it just isn't the right time. i can hit a nail 9 times and it won't pop thru a piece of wood unitl it has reached the right depth...maybe you are just reaching the right depth.

as for dependence on a t or therapy...even a relationship with a "bad t" is still a somewhat comfortable relationship...in a sense that it is familiar. change is scary. you know what you have...especially for those of us coming from histories of abuse. if we leave will t get angry, will there be yelling, screaming, or worse?

geez...i was with the worst t on the planet for like a million years...physical, emotional and sexual abuse...i'll be healing from that for years. thank god for the t i have now! she is the anti-first t. but yet i still worry ...i think it's only natural. and because i was new to therapy and she said i should keep going i went...i did not know better. now i do.

anyway i just wanted to tell you not to worry the healing will happen...i think it already has...look you've done so much...already with ftt and about desk t (who i would have been forced to pick up the BIG DESK and injure her with).

ya doing good.

stumpy

and on a side note...have you noticed the amount of views this thread has recieved??? a hot topic?????? ya think?

((((((stumpy))))))))
you are so brave to keep trying to with therapy, after you'd been burnt so badly the first time .

blue - For someone who has had a lot of therapy in my life I wonder why I am in this really bad place. I am not real brave when it comes to pain.
this is just a thought, and i hope it doesn't offend at all.... but it sounds to me like you might even be comfortable with pain(?). you use one sort (ed) to mask another (childhood stuff). given that you are in so much pain already, i wonder if it really would be that bad to make the switch (you will still be in pain, after all!) but maybe dig at the deeper stuff which might lead to more lasting change?

i know that is a pretty... challenging... way of framing things. i think i would have to be in the right frame of mind for Austin-T to tell me something like that and for it to be useful rather than feeling like someone stabbing at my core with hate. but just... it's coming from a good place, and you can disagree, but just from my own experience... shifting the focus of my pain (from self injury & ed stuff) to the stuff i really needed to look at (ugh), has helped a lot. however, it has taken me many years to get here, and that was partly due to luck of finding a pdoc who is so great.

I agree. Stumpy....you have a lot of courage. And a desire to heal

{quote]blue - For someone who has had a lot of therapy in my life I wonder why I am in this really bad place. I am not real brave when it comes to pain.
this is just a thought, and i hope it doesn't offend at all.... but it sounds to me like you might even be comfortable with pain(?). you use one sort (ed) to mask another (childhood stuff). given that you are in so much pain already, i wonder if it really would be that bad to make the switch (you will still be in pain, after all!) but maybe dig at the deeper stuff which might lead to more lasting change?[/quote]

I agree with you (youre not offending my feelings.....Ive had lots of stuff said to me over the yrs.) I do feel comfortable being sad, in pain, depressed etc. I think Id have to wake up in the morning as someone else to be joyful, peaceful and content with what I have. Desk-t has said things like this to me. Although I know she is right, I did feel like she was trying to put a band-aid on my pain. She would tell me to "act as if". I believe there are times and places for that, but how can I act as if I am happy? Is it just that I see myself as a struggling person? Someone who needs a lot of help? Maybe I dont need so much help and it really is there inside of me.....? If its there, where is it? I cant access it. Im not playing a game needing a therapist to help me. Im really talking about the attitude desk-t has toward me and my difficulties. I agree that I am comfortable with pain. I have never, ever had long periods of time feeling good. Happy and content everyday and looking forward to my day. Not as a child and not as an adult. The most joyous times I ever had was giving birth to my children.....until I had post partum depression....not with all of them, and not terribly badly, but even then it was difficult to get through the day with all small children and babies.

I use food to "stuff" my feelings even if its not eating. I stuff my feelings with control of food. The high I get starving. I have so much ED treament Im almost sick of it. I dont KNOW what is the block here. Is it not the right therapist? Not the right appraoch? What am I getting out of doing this? Am I just comfortable starving until I have health problems from it? I dont know. If there is anything I wish I could have changed about this life it is what I have done with food. It has ravaged my life. The only thing I have never done is trauma work. And I am so scared of doing it. It is what is underneath.

I SO appreciate and want your honesty. You are very fortunate to have found pdoc! Austin t didnt do any of this stuff with you?
How did he help you shift the focus from your pain and ways to hurt yourself to what you really need to look at? I have been told that SI and ED are borderline things. It explains it, but it doesnt give me very much hope that I can change it. I have never been told that I can not be borderline.

For example, if you have an urge to SI, how do you shift the focus? How can I shift the focus to feel comfortable eating a meal for lunch or to feel OK with food in my stomach? These are specific things that I can/am willing (or am trying to be willing) to change. Permanantly change. I am tired of doing what desk t tells me to do only to go back even worse the following week.

I can't say what might work best for you, Blue, but I think it's really important to think about what the relationship brings out in you as well. I think you already know that any T has to remain your therapist and can't be more, but that doesn't mean you can't let go and accept love and support. I don't view a therapist's loving care as illusionary. It's real even though it has to stay in the room. Maybe you feel you need the warmth and caring in order to heal. Feeling loved and cared for by my former T brought out my own caring. And what I discovered in my own potential was immensely healing for me. It's different for everyone, though, and I can understand your apprehension about it.

You are very right. That is the key. I post and then over and over I hear that I have to be patient and allow this process to happen. I have to hear something a million times for it to sink in.

That is it. It is scary. No matter how many times and in different ways I post about the same thing and hear it over and over- it scares me, my feelings scare me, pain scares me even if it is the comfortable place where I live. Even if I want to be unhappy. On some level I prefer to dissociate from the pain, use food, use conrtol, have tantrums or blame it on being borderline instead of going through the fire. Can i blame it on my t not going there with me? What if I am all wrong and she would have gone there with me if I was more open to the process? If I wasnt so scared? Maybe she did the best she could with a tough nut like me.

I am afraid of never seeing her again. Even if the realtionship wasnt what I wanted it to be. Shreds of love are enough for me. Im used to that. I dont want to hurt her feelings and have her hate/abandon me.

I am so glad you now have a t to talk to about all of that. And you are healing from those feelings. I had a similar situation with a previous t. And it is real confusing.

Thanks Stumpy. I am TRYING to be patient Anyway, I have to wait 1 week for my next ftt appt. I am hoping not to annoy everyone too much with my whiny posts....

LOL! Yeah....ya think? Do you ever think, with 54 responses and 1,050 views, who the heck are the 1000 people not posting? C'mon lurkers.....SAY SOMETHING.......LOL!

alright, first up. regardless of all the other things said to you in your life, if what i say is offensive, you gotta speak up and say so, rather than dismissing it because you've had other stuff said to you also. /end assertiveness training .

i really relate to this. i started a new course of meds this year which turned my depression around, and the really weird thing about it is that a lot of my therapy right now involves how to "cope" with being happy again. i started self harming when i was 14. i'm 25 now. i haven't had a significant period of my life where things have felt "good". i am finding that i have to adjust to being happy... i need to learn what it feels like, and how to cope with it. when the depression comes (and it comes for a few days or so every now and again), it almost feels like a relief, because it is so familiar, i dont need to think so much... it's just a habit, a way of being, how my life has been ever since i entered adolescence. the challenge for me now is to continue pushing myself into the happiness zone, now that i've been there, and not let it slip away because i'm not brave enough to learn a new way of living.

i'm not asking you to act "as if". i agree that's simply not useful for you, but it can be for some people at some points. what i am challenging you to do is... recognise that there is pain. there is pain with your ED, or there is pain in facing up to your childhood stuff. recognise also that you have years of experience dealing with pain, and you've mentioned yourself that you feel comfortable with it. i'm not asking you to swap pain for happiness, i'm asking you to swap your focus of thinking, of your therapy. let the ED do what it wants. start looking at what lies behind it. you will only find more pain there, i know. but you've been living in pain so long anyway, this is only a change of scenery. but... maybe that way lies healing?

i dont want you to ignore the ED if it comes at the (severe/long lasting) detriment to your health. that is why i think you need a therapist, or a psychiatrist, who is well versed in recognising what is "acceptable" ED-behaviour and not. you need someone who can tolerate your ED going through bad patches for the short term, but who is willing to give you a kick up the arse if it becomes so much of a problem that ignoring it will lead to long term damage. what i am talking about here is management, not cure. i think you need to manage your ED in the short term, look at your childhood pain, and then maybe you will find the ED easier to cure later on?

these are just ideas, of course. i have no idea how severe your ED is for you. i mentioned i started self harming when i was 14. by the time i was 16 it was so bad i needed help in getting it under control again. deciding to "ignore" it and work on other stuff would have been sheer stupidity; i needed therapy specifically to manage that addiction (and the intertwined ED problem, eh). that therapy endeavour didnt really work out, but that's besides the point. the point is that only you (and your doctor) knows how bad this ED is at the moment, and whether you can actually risk taking your focus off it.

i started with pdoc when i was 20. i think by then the self harm and ed had become more under my control again, it wasn't at so much of a crisis level as it was when i was 16. essentially, i'd had to do it alone until then, and the only thing that helped was the realisation that i had started the ED/SI because it was something to control, and i hated it being so out of my control anymore - it had become a habit, a compulsion, an addiction. so i just reframed how i looked at it, made it into a new challenge - i was going to regain control over the SI and the ED. not stop it completely, but turn it back into something where I decided when i would self harm, not when my body urged me to.

so... when i started with pdoc, the ED/SI were concerns, yeah, but not the biggest problems i had (by then i was severely depressed and couldn't function e.g., brush my hair - so we needed help with that ). when we finally were able to talk about the self harm stuff, pdoc was pretty cool about it. he tells me that he trusts me to take care of my self injury stuff because obviously i have been doing it a long time without needing other ppl's help. he has offered in the past to do wound care for it, but it's such an intensely personal thing for me that i couldn't show him the marks anyway.

re: the ED. i am at a healthy weight now, but i do go through periods of starving myself/controlling my food intake. pdoc never weighs me, but obviously it's not that difficult to detect when someone has lost a fair bit of weight. if i lose 10% of my weight, he brings it up as something he is concerned about and that he will be keeping an eye on. he has given me an absolute minimum weight he will tolerate from me before our therapy stops and the ED becomes our sole focus instead. he once dug out his lunch from his briefcase and offered me half just so he could know i had eaten that day. i didnt eat it (when i get ed-like, i have really bad anxiety about ppl watching me eat?) but i promised i would go home and eat an apple, and i did. not many ppl could actually offer me food like that, but it was ok coming from pdoc, because i know he cares about me so much, and i dont want to hurt him. he said he wouldnt ask me to eat every day until i saw him next, he just wanted to know i ate something on that one day i saw him.

i find SI easier to control than the ED stuff. with the SI... i dont shift the focus. i just sit there and feel whatever it is that is going through my body, even if it really stinks. after a while though, those feelings subside, and it feels ok to have just sat there. it can even feel good, because i exerted control over something i did not want to do. i have since found out that this (sitting thingy) is something similar to the technique of "mindfulness", so maybe that is something that could work well for you?

the ED is more difficult for me... because i almost need to distract myself from the fact that i am eating, that there is food in my stomach, etc. i tend to go for vegetables, because they are healthy but also high in water content and they feel lighter in your stomach than e.g., bread or meat. i typically go for lettuce in the first instance. just rip up some lettuce into big chunks, and eat a cup's worth. lettuce isn't the most tasty thing anyway, so you can almost ignore the fact that you are eating it. i like doing the washing (hanging clothes out in the sun) so i get my cup of lettuce and eat a piece while i hang my clothes up. i usually then progress to carrot (shred it up) and tomato slices. by the time i have managed tomatos, i am usually into the food craving stage, lol . my biggest weakness is mushrooms, i can go crazy on them. one i'm craving mushrooms, i'm usually more enamoured by the taste of what i'm eating to the point that i dont pay so much attention to food going down my throat, settling in my stomach etc. (eta: the progression from lettuce to mushrooms depends on how far into my ed i am. sometimes it's only a day, sometimes it takes two weeks or more).

but i like starting off with lettuce, because it feels like a punishment anyway (i hate lettuce!). so it's not too far from food restriction, it's just another thing to punish yourself with, and another thing to control even though you dont want to.

BH- I always want to print out what you post

I would have to give that some thought- what the relationship brings out in me. It does bring out nurturing feelings that I being home to my children and husband. Especially to my youngest children. I listen better. I know how sensitive they are and I give to them what I want a t to give to me in those instances when they need the lovnig warmth of their mother. And it does make me feel warmer toward myself...at least for a short while. Its the letting go and accepting the love and support without being suspicious or dismissing it. Maybe b/c I have never had that kind of love and support from a therapist. It has always seemed illusionary to me. Is it real? All I want is a better experience than I have had, then I'll know....I think....I hope...

Deli- There is so much here. I am printing this out and will respond tomorrow. There is so much heavy stuff in there. I am trying to "digest" it all.

We are alot alike, especially in the small details of food and SI stuff.

Wow.....

Breathe........

bm, you don't have to reply. i had to go get myself a nice morning coffee before i typed all of that up because i knew it was gonna go to some deep places.

if you would like to reply, then i'm all ears. but sometimes it's enough to just digest it and let it be, and that's ok also.

You and what you wrote have been on my mind all morning. I read it moments before I went to bed and had a dream about it. I have it printed and I want to read it again. Not because I feel "obligated" to, but becuse it was very helpful and I learned a lot from it. It brought up things for me too.

Im glad you got your coffee and wrote it to me Was it helpful to you to write about those places?

It brought up a lot about Si for me and how I felt when I was younger. I never really got into it therapy except briefly. I did tell desk t about what I used to do. Some of it is the pain I felt as a child that I am afraid to go into with a more open t (ftt). I dont know what you would call it, SI or something else, but as a child (maybe younger elementary school age) I used to hide in the woods from my mother and scratch my arm until I was bleeding and it made me feel better. I still have some scars from the very young SI I used to do. But I used to do it to my younger brother and scratch his arms up until he was bleeding. I dont know why I would do something like this and I am embarrassed and sad that I did this to him as a child. If I was real young, he must have been really little. I cant remember what ages I used to do this. I was hiding and scared, but I created my own imaginary world back there- there was a stream and I walked far away along this stream to get away from my house. When you were talking about SI it came back to me. And my mothers tantrum in my dream. And she hurt my little brother. Its hard to talk about and makes me cry.

Big sigh and still breathing.......I wish I had ftt this week......

I am finally replying....

[quote=deliquesce;1151791]alright, first up. regardless of all the other things said to you in your life, if what i say is offensive, you gotta speak up and say so, rather than dismissing it because you've had other stuff said to you also. /end assertiveness training .[quote]

sure 'nuff.....what you said about feeling comfortable with unhappiness is true for me. My current t has said this to me. I dont get defensive and say,"I am miserable, how dare you say I like it!"

How is it going? How are you coping with being happy?
I also started lexipro in august. It isnt my first time on medication, but I know going off is impossible for me, so I made a commitment to go on this knowing I would have to "cope" with feeling better. I am feeling better, less suicidal is a big deal for me. I dont think I am at "happiness" yet, but I dont think I would have had the strength to look for another t if it had not been for the meds.
Sometimes when I have some really good moments I feel like any minute the sky will fall. Something has got to happen to ruin it, it cant be for real, any minute someone will say something or do something and I will be back in misery and dealing with some kind of crisis. I will be back in my comfort zone. The waiting for my good feelings to end badly has me on edge. Also, when I feel good I feel like I dont have the right to get help, or to feel pain at other moments. It is difficult for me to have opposite feelings at the same time. If I feel pain, it is as if I have never been happy, ever. If I feel happy, I cant ever feel unhappy. Its as if I can only live in 1 moment and no other feeling or moments exist. The crash to the next feeling/moment is very difficult. I might as well stay in pain.

(((((Deli))))) That is exaclty how I feel too. The familiar depression almost feels like a relief from the unknown of good feelings. As I said before, I am waiting for a "crash" when I have good feelings.

Ok- no act as if, I have done that for long enough and it feels invalidating. The childhood stuff is where I should go, but am afraid to go, but I am trying this ED/trauma therapist. So, I should look at my past trauma. I am trusting the experience of everyone here. This is new for me b/c I have not done this kind of work before. When I was reading the posts from Dream about the EMDR I was feeling so happy for her but afraid that I couldnt go there. Im not talking about EMDR in particular, but into painful feelings to get to the other side. I would need so much support and how do I know I would get that kind of support? I have never had that from a t. I dont trust enough.

This is very intense. Very. I can do that. I can try. Not get so involved in trying to get my ED under control. I cannot imagine seeing anyone who would care about me that much. Watch to see if I am eating or not eating. And get involved. I always try to handle it on my own. And this is where it has gotten me. Physically I am fine, I was in the hospital just before I joined PC for dehydration and a kidney infection from a UTI that was out of control twice in June. It took 4 months to cure and i had it since march. But I make sure to drink enough now but my weight is at 110. I want to gain some but still dont want to eat. I am not weak, but I do get dizzy at times. Nothing I do makes me feel more comfortable eating, I am hoping that trauma work will make me more comfortable letting go and not holding onto such tight control. Of what I dont know.

(((((Deli))))) It is a terrible addiction. IM very glad you got it under control- for the most part. And scars are scars. At this point, I wish I didnt have mine.

I dont know how severe it is. I feel fine, but Im not seeing desk-t, Im not seeing anyone really at the moment. Her focus was on my weight and she had a behavioral approach that I could find every reason to ignore. So, Im on my own, at least for this week. Tree suggested I ask ftt for 2x/week for a while. I was seeing desk-t 2x/wk.

Oh, Deli. I am so sorry you went through such a rough time. But even though you were on your own, you did a pretty good job getting your addictions under control. That is not an easy task. Addictions, no matter what they are, are so resistant.

You are so fortunate to have found such a loving, caring therapist. Pdoc is very special and the way he cares for you must be a feel so healing. Does he still treat your SI the same way? Or does he get upset with you? He has never seen the marks?

Is this recently or was this in the past? How is your eating now? I can see why you have made progress the way you have.

When I am in a down mood I have difficulty eating with my family and eat beforehand and then give them dinner. I know this is a terrible way to act in family with children and I know they notice. Desk-t has told me how I am damaging them etc and it is painful for me to hear, but she says this without the caring that pdoc has with you. I feel guilty, suicidal and hopeless when she has gone off on how my ED damages my children. I know this is not good, but there has got to be a way to get some peace with food. It doesnt work for me to do it for other people, even if they are my children who I adore. She says not eating is one more way I SI. So, how do I work on feelings of self-hate and wanting to SI with food? Not with her, I guess.

[quote]i find SI easier to control than the ED stuff. with the SI... i dont shift the focus. i just sit there and feel whatever it is that is going through my body, even if it really stinks. after a while though, those feelings subside, and it feels ok to have just sat there. it can even feel good, because i exerted control over something i did not want to do. i have since found out that this (sitting thingy) is something similar to the technique of "mindfulness", so maybe that is something that could work well for you? [/qupte]

YES YES YES! What do you do? Can you elaborate on the mindfulnees thing?

Yup......

[quote]i tend to go for vegetables, because they are healthy but also high in water content and they feel lighter in your stomach than e.g., bread or meat. i typically go for lettuce in the first instance. just rip up some lettuce into big chunks, and eat a cup's worth. lettuce isn't the most tasty thing anyway, so you can almost ignore the fact that you are eating it. [quote]

I know exactly what you are talking about. I also do that ignore thing about eating. If I am fully present I stop eating.

Do you feel at some point your appetite "wakes up"? Then you want to eat more? Thats the point I would feel like I will eat too much.

You are very aware of what is going on. Its a good thing to be so self-aware with food. It seems to be the only way to change it. Are you doing this now? With the lettuce to mushroom progression?

I understand the punishment with food thing. It is so difficult and so deep. You are very aware, I understand very well how it is to be very aware of what you are doing yet doing it anyway. Its been so many years and although I have given up some of the more destructive food behaviors, I STILL am in this thing. What will help I dont know. I could use a good, caring t like pdoc to help me.
Does he know all these details? If so, does he understand? What does he say? Do you talk about any of this with Austin-t????

It hurts me for you and for me how we suffer with these behaviors that take the life out us. There is no real peace while doing this. Distractions work for just so long and so does forcing myself to eat. I get pissed and always end up losing more.

But I do have something about this that is "on topic". I know my ED would quickly deteriorate without an attachment to a therapist. It is not a game. It is very serious. How can anyone recover from being anorexic if she feels her therapist is role-playing. People like us come from homes where life felt ingenuine. If I thought my t wasnt genuinly in a relationship with me, no progress would be made.

I can't relate to not wanting to eat because I have the opposite problem, I like food too much, but do not have an ED. I feel sad for you, BlueMoon and Deli, and want to send you hugs. I can only access quick reply for some reason now, and not the smileys or hugs, but I will try again.

Here are the hugs for BlueMoon and Deli!

((((rainbow))))) thank you for the hugs! i am only able to talk about this stuff openly these days because i'm largely over it - i don't, and i haven't, met the criteria for an ED for a good many years. so no need to feel sad for me, but i'll never say no to a hug .

bm - i will try to reply later tonight - i just know if i go there now the rest of my day will be wiped . also i'm wondering if maybe we should start a separate thread on this, just so we can leave this thread on topic with therapy dependence?

((((Rainbow)))) I love your hugs..... Thanks

Deli- its a good idea.....a new thread.....I'll go start it before I put the babies to bed....