Loving myself

I wouldn't call you a liar, SAWE. That seems very harsh! I think these little things we say that aren't really authentic are from years of conditioning and also not being in touch with how we feel. And having others not be accepting of us, so we get scared to share our true selves. Part of learning not to say these things is learning to listen to yourself and understand what is true and what is not. I don't see it as a case of a person being a liar but a person needing to understand themselves better and decide to make it a priority to help others understand them better too. It sounds like you are trying hard and it is a great skill just to be able to realize that when you said "no", it was not really how you felt.

Just because you said "no" when you didn't really mean it? It's just one thing. I think you're doing great! Don't give up!

I hope this post is not seen as jumping on you.

I wanted to add, why are you looking for reasons to not love yourself?

Yes! I also believe it is so important. I think, for me, because this is one of those things that translates immediately into RL. I find I choose my friends more carefully b/c they are more in tune with the authentic me. As opposed to the "confused" me who didnt quite know who/what was authentic as I might automatically behave in an inauthentic way. And with my h, we at least know truthfully what the issues are.

I like how Sunny explained it. I dont see it as lying either. Years of fear of our own true selves seems to distance us from that self. Then, as with me, I am confused as to who the real Moon is. Who is that authentic me? I am silent (like with your t) because I am so not used to saying how I feel. As Sunny said, it seems the more practice I get with it, the closer the authentic reaction is to the situation. But often I also have to say (to T, to my H), "No, that isnt how I feel." And, I also have the right to change my mind! Another important realization!
I agree with Sunny, with more experience considering how you feel, the authentic reaction comes faster. And it is SO OK to take time to consider your feelings when presented with aqquestion/situation. There's no pressure to be SAWE fast.

What I quoted from you makes me sad. And I understand that anger at yourself for not being who you want to be, and be it NOW. You're not a liar, but you are a wonderful, sensitive, growing person on her very unique path toward HER authenticity. I wish, SAWE that you could love yourself for the path you are on, it is a path that doesnt have to look like anyone else's. And I know you can do it! I know that

I don't have to look for them. They live in me; some I know all too well; others I am continually discovering. it's revolting.

SAWE- I dont think you are revolting Its so sad for me to hear you say that about your sweet self.

It might sound strange, but it was helpful to me to type out the beliefs I hold inside about myself. I am going to ftt with these things. I will probably end up doing work on the deepest, most hurt part of me. It wont be easy. Can you do the same? I dont know for sure if its appropriate, but I hear from you the same self-hating words that make me suffer. I think unnecessarily, but I dont imagine they are going to go away unless I bring it all out into the open, no matter how shameful, and even if I feel that I should be over all of this at my age. Thats a big one for me.

Sweet, sweet SAWE...

This is what I am teaching my 9 y/o with autism:
He has a VERY short fuse, and a VERY volatile temper. On a daily basis, he says very mean things to people, breaks things, threatens to kill himself...always reacting in the heat of the moment to a strong feeling he is having. No amount of intervention has been able to change these behaviors.

About a week ago, he said to me: sometimes I look back at the things I do when I'm mad and I realize I'm being so stupid! He and I talked about this for a long, long time. He said that when he is mad, he can't think about whether or not what he is doing is stupid...he said he can't think about two things at once.

But in my eyes, he's grown so much. He's moved from not even realizing or CARING that there was a problem with his behavior to being able to look back at it and realize he wishes he would have done things differently. I told him that we will work together to make the length of time between the behavior and the realization shorter, and I know that eventually, he will realize what he is doing *before* he acts, and he will learn to control himself.

SAWE, just because we are adults doesn't mean that we aren't still learning. We are always learning, for our entire lives. I know that you wouldn't tell me to shame my son, or to love him less because he is in the process of learning something that is very hard for him.

We can have the same gentle acceptance towards ourselves and our learning as we do towards children. There's no difference. You are doing the same process my son is doing....moving from unawareness, to awareness after the fact...towards eventually feeling safe enough to be authentic in the moment. It's a process, and you are doing it.

Please be gentle with you.

Sending so many

Tree- You are an amazing mom. I think having a child that needs that extra patience is a gift and a true opportunity for growth. And it is how we ALL can learn to be with ourselves. Im so glad you used that example for SAWE. We could all use that extra patience and acceptance of ourselves for who we are at any given moment. And that there really is no end point for learning and change. It seems to me to be a big relief. The pressure is off to be all grown up

I would love to be able to give to myself even half of the gentleness and acceptance I give my 5 yo when I allow her lovingly to learn in her own time, in her own way. If I could do that, life would certainly be different

I look back on my childhood in a similar way. I have realized now that I chose to act a certain way because of the way that I was treated in my home and that this way that I acted affected how people responded to me.............

And of course I am still realizing how I might still be acting in these ways........

dear Tree, thank you.

I wonder, Sannah, if teachers in this day and age might respond differently to elementry school children who withdraw from adults. In the 60's (revealing my age here) the teachers didnt have enough knowledge or probably support to approach a student who behaved as I did. I was afraid of adults everywhere. And I imagine that although there was a knowledge of psychology, there wasnt an emphasis there to get involved, look deeper or help a child.

What does anyone think about that? How teachers of a long time ago, maybe 60s or 70s saw elementry school children who seemed to need help. Or maybe they didnt use the criteria for assessing children then as they do today. I dont think anyone even NOTICED I needed help. But if it were today, I would have been noticed.

As a matter of fact, in high school (this was in the mid-70s) there was a therapy group of high school kids chosen from a very large class of hundreds of kids. I was one of the few chosen for this experimental group. I forgot about that. Somebody noticed something, I guess.

Treehouse, I liked what you told your son. I don't think my parents intended to shame or condition me to supress my emotions. However there response to my impulsiveness and ...lack of self control did just that.

God was mentioned earlier... I am a spiritual person who believes in a higher power. However sometimes I reject my Christian upbringing because it sometimes triggers an immature image of God. The God of my childhood that was used as a tool to keep me inline. My mother would lay the guilt trip on me..."Jesus is watching and he would be very disappointed in how you behaved today." My father would scream at my mother things like, "Mic...that girl's got the devil in her..She needs the belt to her ***!"

With or without the physical abuse...constantly hearing comments like these from parents, religious leaders, teachers, and other adults has a way of distorting our view of our self and our ablity to love ourselves.

It is painful to watch my daughter doing this very thing. The way she acts, talks, and even walks, all push people away. She is quite isolated. She would like a friend, I know, but she is not approachable, and too shy to do the approaching herself. My daughter has been unable to speak to adults since way back when (scared? intimidated?), but I think she is improving somewhat here. And in other areas too. So, I have hope.

I can't say there was much help at my daughter's schools. Teachers, of course, noticed there was something wrong and would talk about it at the parent conference, but there wasn't much support for the teacher in dealing with situations like this. And then they also have 30 kids in the class, so it's a challenge for them to attend to all the children's needs. There is a school psychologist on staff but he used to come to the school a half day a week and spend his other days at other schools. We did speak with someone called the family advocate several years in a row, but this person (also part-time)was always someone different every year, and we would have to start from square 1 each time. And this position was always the first to cut when the school district could not make budget. Basically, we were told that there were no resources for help unless my daughter's academic performance suffered due to her problems. She always kept up at least average performance, so this didn't qualify her.

This has been my experience with the school system as well. My oldest is in junior high. He's a very bright kid, scores advanced on standardized tests, yet currently has a Ds in Science, Social Studies, and Health because... he doesn't do (turn-in) his homework and just can't seem to handle the daily grind of school.. When asked he simply says he doesn't like school in general, basically feels like no one really cares what he does there anyway. I contacted the school counselor to inquire about tutoring, schedule a meetin with his teachers, and see if there are programs that might help students who are disinfranchised and drifting on the fringes of the mainstream. Nope! I was basically told by the school counselor thta my son's behavior did "raise any red flags" with her, that the tutoring programs are only for students who school below proficient level on the state exam, and that if I wanted talk with his teachers I would need to wait until the end of the marking period and schedule a 10 minute meeting with his TEAM teachers during the designated PT-conference day.

My son was totally right... no one at his school gives a crap at all about what he does.

IDK... teachers today aren't any better than the ones we had. The only different is... they can't call you stupid and biff ya in the head in front of your classmates.

I can so relate to this, Chaotic. I also was a child with little self-control and was shamed for it instead of helped to learn self-control.

God was mentioned earlier... I am a spiritual person who believes in a higher power. However sometimes I reject my Christian upbringing because it sometimes triggers an immature image of God. The God of my childhood that was used as a tool to keep me inline. My mother would lay the guilt trip on me..."Jesus is watching and he would be very disappointed in how you behaved today." My father would scream at my mother things like, "Mic...that girl's got the devil in her..She needs the belt to her ***!"

With or without the physical abuse...constantly hearing comments like these from parents, religious leaders, teachers, and other adults has a way of distorting our view of our self and our ablity to love ourselves.[/quote]
I so agree with this. And I have strong feelings about forcing religion. Its very sad to me that your parents did this guilt thing to you with regard to God. A source of possible comfort and connection turns into a source of punishment. Oh, yuck!
My parents had the same reaction to me and my "active" nature.

Is this your older or younger daughter?
My 2nd d was very shy as a child, but it doesnt sound like in the same way as your daughter. Her older sister is very outgoing and gregarious. She has always been in her shadow. Although she was shy, she always had 1 or 2 close friends and HAD to have a teacher who understood her. She was close with a teacher (I think it was 4th grade) who told me she had been shy too as a child. But a very outoging 2nd grade teacher thought there was really something pathologoically wrong with her. She was an idiot. Now my d is graduating from Jr High, has lots of friends and goes out etc. But it has taken a lot of work on her self-esteem over the years and just maturing for her to come to this place. She is much less in her sister's shadow since her sister is now in another school (high school). We'll see how it pans out next yr when they are both in the same high school. In terms of the school, *I* had to advocate on her behalf for patience and understanding on the part of teachers. But her shyness can often be endearing and she has teachers who adore her and give her a lot (sometimes too much and my older d complains) leeway.

This saddens me. The lack of attention to girl who could probably do better with some extra support. Did you push it? Maybe look for some way that academic performance could be considered "suffering"? Im sorry this happened

the teachers at my school cared (i went to an elite private girls school, so probably a large difference in terms of staff resources) but i think that was partly because i have always been someone who even the teachers would tell stuff to. my science teacher was dissatisfied with his career, my english teacher was a closet gay, my maths teacher used to self harm when she was stressed (which was often). it's not like they ever sought me out, but i guess i am probably more perceptive than other ppl, and i never had a problem saying "you look stressed" and "are you ok". so i guess i eventually found out things like that over the years.

as for my teacher's concern for me... they knew i had problems. heck, i was on a full academic scholarship & rarely even bothered to sit final exams. they tried so hard to make me believe in my self worth, but no one ever referred me to a counsellor (and our school, god bless, had 2 full time school counsellors & LOL even a career counsellor). my maths teacher knew i self harmed, my science teacher knew i was ridiculously underweight, my english teacher didnt know any of this stuff because he finally decided to move interstate & reinvent himself by coming out . i met him a few years ago and he was the campest guy i've ever come across, i was delighted.

so i dont know. i've always, always been a teacher's favourite. even at uni now i have lecturers who always have time for me. but as to whether any of it lead to meaningful support... then no, not really. i mean, i was blessed to have ppl take an interest in me, but it was only in my 3rd year of uni that one of my lecturers suggested i see a psychiatrist. he'd even made the appt for me and arranged to come along.

my english assignments (when i did turn them in) were pretty raw and honest. about sexual abuse, about eating disorders, about losing my mind. but because i was one of the "intelligent kids", it was always interpreted as me just exploring different ideas. i dont think what i wrote was a cry for help in any way (i certainly didnt want anyone interfering) - i was just lazy and wrote what came to mind. i knew i could get away with it, after all. my marks were always way below my "potential", but because they were always above average it was never really seen as an issue.

if the above wasn't explicit enough however (warning - triggers about): when i was in preschool i was the favourite of one of the part time teachers there. i adored him, and tuesday and thursdays were the best days in my week. i also used to offer to french kiss him, or masturbate him, or let him feel me up. this was late 80s (i started school in 1990). you would think those things would have been pretty huge red flags, but no. nothing was ever done about it. i mean, he was gorgeous about it, and always had clear boundaries, and never made me feel bad about those things. and he would usually just give me a cuddle and tell me i was his favourite even without doing those things, and then he would get out his basketball and let me count (on his wristwatch) how many seconds he could spin it for. i thought it was the coolest trick ever, and of course i got distracted. i would make him do it for hours (we only ever got up to 6 seconds, lol). and he never let any of the other kids hold his wristwatch, so i knew i was special.

so no, i dont think things are different. of course they differ in that i've always had teachers who are interested in me, but i thinkk that's more the product of my personality than them being more avaiable/knowledgeable (my friends always comment on how i'm the one who knows ppl well). it's not even like my teachers didnt have an opportunity to know - they knew me quite intimately, there weren't too many secrets. of course it helped that i had their emotional support (and it played a huge part in keeping me sane), but there was never any real professional intervention.

i wonder why. i dont blame them (at all!!!) but i'm just interested to know, i guess. my gut feeling is just maybe we live in a culture of denial, and dont really want to rock the boat.

We worked through the school system, we knew no other way, and we pushed it for several years in a row. We didn't know if there was a cause for serious concern or if this was some sort of phase that many children passed through when growing up. The advocates seemed to think this was developmental but everything they said just did not match our experience with our daughter and when we tried to tell them, no, this does not sound like a bit of natural difficulty in passing from developmental stage 5 to 6 (or whatever box they would try to put her difficulties in), they would not listen. We took advantage of whatever minor help the advocates offered, which for several years in a row took the form of my daughther joining a "friendship group" that met weekly at school. It was comprised of children who had difficulty communicating and would help them learn social skills. It met once a week for 2 months. It was a minor intervention and there was no continuity, so it was not much help. Why didn't the family advocates start the group at the beginning of each school year and have it last 9 months? How much money does it cost for a dozen kids to meet once a week in an empty room at the school during school hours? My daughter's 4th grade teacher also told us during meetings we initiated that my daughter presented as a child who may have been sexually abused (she was also a family therapist). We did our best to look into this, and did not find anything.

In middle school, with the impending divorce and a big worsening in my daughter's school performance and behavior (becoming more withdrawn but also getting into trouble at school), my H and I spoke to the school counselor, who had no help to offer or advice to give, and we decided to take more action than the schools could give, and we got my daughter into therapy. She has now been with the same therapist for over 2 and a half years, and I am so glad she has this other adult in her life. It has been very slow going for the therapist to win my daughter's trust, and there were times when after a session, I would see the same look of frustration on the therapist's face that I had seen on her teachers' faces and that I am sure I have felt too. I thought, good, she is really understanding how things are with my D. She is getting it. I am especially glad my D had this support when my H and I separated. We tried to be as supportive as we could to our kids, but I really appreciated the presence of the therapist in my D's life during that period. More recently, my D and I also did some family therapy together with a different practitioner. I have especially seen a lot of growth in my daughter (now in high school) emotionally in the last few months, and am thrilled. I feel like some things are coming together for her and she is becoming capable of things she wasn't before. I see the first little inkling of empathy and even kindness, and some new capability in speaking with adults and taking care of tasks that other kids do with ease. With these changes, she may be getting nearer to being able to have a friend. That would be so great for her.

deli, I also think at least in U.S. schools, that budgets are incredibly tight and schools have many many responsibilities, and do what they see as the most important things first, and then the rest don't get done. Like they might have programs for drug addicted kids or pregnant teens, but as I wrote before, not the kids who are not failing. It's like a triage system--staunch the bleeding from the worst wounds and hope everyone else survives or can get help elsewhere. I think at the very least, what I would have appreciated from the advocates and counselor was some referrals to places in the community we could get more help, even the suggestion that my daughter see a therapist. That never occurred to me until I started seeing a therapist myself and found how helpful it could be. It was just outside of my realm of experience so I never thought of it. Would it have been so hard for an advocate/counselor to say "have you ever considered a therapist for your daughter?" or some other suggestion?

Sunny- This story about your d really touched me. I am so sorry and also very, very surpirsed at the lack of attention she received from anybody who could possibly intervene. Im shocked, really. It sounds as if there might have been a number of possible interventions that could have been done and different stages.
At my children's school, tho it is not a public school, I know funding for these services are provided by NY State. There is a school psychologist who seems to get involved (even where she isnt particularly wanted) everywhere. There are quite a few therapy groups for the kids all day long. Divorced kids, struggling kids, bully kids etc I am just surprised with all of the effort you put in that you couldnt get anyone to pick up the ball. Could it be the state you live in? Maybe NY gets involved quickly when a parent asks for interventions. I dont think it is just that we have been lucky. I have been able to get every kind of intervention for my (now) 5 1/2 yo d for learning issues, speech, PT, OT and another socialization group I suggested. She had been in a fantastic integrated classroom and now she is in regular kindergarten and doing great with all of the services. She even doesnt qulaify for some of the services since she is doing so well, but I pushed it and only dropped PT and continued with all other interventions. It would have made me very uncomfortable to have her in school without all of the help. And I stay VERY on top of each of her therapist (I dont know them well b/c it is a new school for her- she is now in the school with my other kids) to make sure she likes them and is comfortable with them. If not, Id find my own therapist for her and have her go to the school. This is the way it is done here. A lot of the kids get interventions, especially if the parents are pushing for it.

Deli- I am so sorry this happened to you. Especially in preschool! What is wrong with people?
WHAT??? In the late 80s and no one blinked an eye about a pre-school child telling an adult she would touch him sexually for attention? WTF?
I am furious.
I am glad you got all of the help you are receiving now. And have accomplished all that you have. It is an absolute miracle.....for a child so neglected and dismissed. Oh, Deli

Maybe it was my fault, then. I wasn't asking for specific intervention. Maybe I just wasn't knowledgeable about how things worked. And when 3 different family advocates and a school counselor acted like my daughter did not have problems that merited special services, I believed them, and just tried to do the best I could as a parent. I thought that if there was help to be had, they would have told me about what to do, whether that meant school services or seeking help outside. I just didn't know anything. I tried to be reassured by the advocates' classification of this as just a normal developmental thing, but in my gut, I wasn't so sure. And later her therapist did confirm this (that it was not a normal developmental thing). But I just didn't know back then. I'm not trained professionally to work with children or know what is normal and what is not. As for school therapy groups, there actually was a 6 week divorce group at the middle school, and my D was invited to attend, but she couldn't. She is very shy and was very upset about what was going on but not able to speak about it or admit it. She could not share this in a group situation--that would have been like dying for her. It was totally the wrong thing for her, but there was no alternative. I think I just wasn't savvy enough. I didn't know what services or interventions would have been suited for my D earlier and still don't. I only thought of individual therapy because I began going to a therapist and saw it could be helpful. So I thought, if it's helping me, why not her too? I just think school people who are trained in this stuff could at least have given us some ideas.

The only thing that I can think of is that things might have been different at the time when your now high school daughter was young. My daughter that I pushed for services for is now only 5 1/2.

Of course, when you were asking for some kind of eval or intervention, it is only natural that you would have trusted the opinion of someone who is supposed to be a professional. And maybe the criteria in those days was somewhat different than it is today. I think the criteria changes year to year and they are becoming very generous in giving out services these days (from what I hear). Especially for young children since these programs are a huge success.

How is she doing now with shyness? Does she have any nice girlfriend she can talk to? Sometimes just that can make all the difference.

School counselors are not therapists. They are trained to handle short-term conflicts and interventions and to refer to other resources of help if needed. If a student seems to need special education support, counselors can get that ball rolling. In some schools, they run groups for students who are kind of falling between the cracks socially, but that isn't a given intervention. So much depends on the quality of the school district's counseling system.

Our school sets up a mentoring program for kids who are struggling academically. They are paired up with a teacher who checks in with them regularly, encourages them, and tutors them if needed. Again, so much varies from district to district.

Teachers are trained to report abuse when they see it. If I have student who writes something that puts up red flags for me, I refer it to the counselor. Students know that from the beginning, so they can choose to disclose if they want, but they know I will turn it over to a counselor.

I would have found that very helpful, either from a counselor or the family advocates. Something like, "I think your daughter might benefit from X, Y, or Z. Here's a list of community resources you can look into," and then handed me a sheet. No one expected therapy, but professional guidance in assessing needs and getting help would have been great. I think this has become too much these days to ask of a school system, though, due in large part to lack of funding. I don't see an end to the budget woes in the near future.

One of my professors is also the principal of a small charter school, and talked some about how the school is run. Charter schools are nice because they have smaller classes and the ability to really get into particular areas of interest. There is more individual attention available. My professor told us that he did not allow his staff to ever suggest that a student might benefit from therapy, because if a public school identifies that a student needs an intervention or accomodation, the school is required to provide it and pay for it. He said that the school couldn't afford it. This from a principal who is a therapist and trains therapists.

My sister was referred by her elementary school for therapy, and the school paid for it. I was jealous that she got noticed and nobody ever cared about me, and I was interested in therapy but I wasn't allowed to talk about how things were or that I was unhappy. My sister hated therapy though, and didn't want to go, and still isn't interested in it, so I guess it didn't help her much.

Oh, Rapunzel, Im so sorry this happened to you! This story send a chill through me. How sad.

It is sad, but I just realized it might be misread too. The professor taught at the university where I was a student. He was the principal of an elementary school and talked about that as a seperate role. But I guess it was triggering because I still carry a grude that the school counselors when I was a child failed to suggest anything even though they knew I was in the bathroom crying through most lunch periods and had other obvious signs of not being okay.