T's have T's -- wait a minute!?

That's the hole in the concept of relativism.....the problem is that there is truth that exists that isn't dependent on being relative to the person. The sky is lighter blue during the day time & dark blue/black at night. There are some things that are fact no matter how people want to argue differently. That is why it's so very important for us to hold onto what we know are true things & then hold onto the things that we know to be true for ourselves based on our own education & experience. When we allow ourselves to be convinced by every "fly by night" fool that's out there throwing their thoughts around because they claim to be so very educated, it's our responsibility to put our thoughts, values, beliefs & education together to determine what is truth & what isn't rather than to get caught up in this relativism thinking where everyone that thinks what they think is right because they think it.....all that does is make for confusion. We can be tolerant of their thinking but that doesn't mean we have to think what they think or even believe what they believe. We have to hold onto our own beliefs & have the self-confidence that what we know is our own truth because of all the information we have put together from our own lives.

Standing up for what we believe isn't always easy & sometimes we can't argue about it because there is no way we can convince others of what we believe, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't believe what we we know to be truth to us. Why do you think that religion is such a controversial topic????

I know there are some beliefs you hold onto strongly & yet others, you seem to need someone to tell you what to believe rather than determining what you believe on your own. Yes, we need education in order to base our beliefs on, but when we get the education, there comes a time to settle on our own truths while we keep our ears open for new information, but until something comes along to convince us otherwise, it's important to hold onto that truth we have come to believe & understand.

When you allow yourself to only believe what people tell you, there are so many people with so many beliefs that are relative to them, you have to take the responsibility to determine what truth you hold onto rather than waiting for someone to tell you what you HAVE to believe.

It's important never go give anyone the authority to determine what we believe or think about something, but out responsibility to accumulate the information & forumlate our own beliefs from that

Ah, yes. In time. In the great hereafter, you mean. Luckily, we won't any of us be around to check.

In the country of the blind, the one-eyed (or quarter-eyed) "person" is king/queen. Ha ha ha ha. PC uber alles. Honey, honey, honey, you really need to express yourself more clearly than that. Particularly when you're talking to good old Pach. He's a bright guy, you know. With high intellectual standards! Take good care!

1. king/queen.

2. put to death.

3. driven insane.

4. other.

You pick.

pachy, for what it's worth i do think you are making progress with the threads you've posted lately. i've even seen a change in some of the things you've been saying since then. you seem to be more in the present rather than responding to things people say from your childhood perspective. do not despise small beginnings!

as for truth, right and wrong and all that...well, there is truth (black & white) and there are also opinions (gray). it's not an either/or but a bothand. when we think everything is either black & white or everything is gray is when we run into problems. there are many areas in life where things are just our preference or perspective or opinion and that is fine (e.g. what career to pursue). then, there are the biggies (e.g. abuse is wrong) that are right or wrong. of course, it's gets complicated sometimes in discerning between what is one of the biggies and what is mere opinion. that is where many disagreements occur. to say "there are no absolutes" is in fact an absolute and therefore a self-contradictory statement.

as children many of us were told things about ourselves that were not really true. (e.g. you don't really feel hurt when i do such and such). as adults we now have the freedom and ability to stand our ground and say for instance "yes, we really do feel hurt". we also may have been told what to think. as children some weren't given the space to disagree without punishment but as adults we do have that space as long as we are not a danger to ourselves or others.

Actually I kind of get where you are coming from. You wouldn't want a mechanic to have to call a mechanic to fix his car Right?

I'm not sure it works that way with people though. In fact, I'm not even sure I would consider my therapist an authority on me, or anything else.

The human mind I think is the definition of a chaotic system. There is no way to predict what's going to happen. Describe maybe, but certainly not predict.

If my therapist had an issue come up that may affect my therapy, I would hope that he would seek treatment or help with it.

Hey, in the end, I guess we are all in this mess together.

My DH doesn't have a GP, his primary Dr is an internist, board certified cardiologist & thoracic surgeon. In these areas he is brilliant but when it comes to GP type stuff he is fairly clueless and way too proud to refer my DH to another doctor.
DH once came down with a walloping urinary tract infection on a Friday night and had to wait till Monday AM to see the doc. After spending 2+ days under piles of blankets he had a heat rash on his chest - which the doc looked at, handed him a rash cream, and sent him home. grrr

I felt tht the poem wasn't about Ts conferring with colleagues, as much as it was about Ts having their own Ts - speaking for myself I would worry about a T who had issues com eup and didn't / wouldn't have a T to go to.

I just loved your poem! I will say though that not all T's have T's. Psychologists (once qualified) have to be able to work independently though they may have 'supervision.' Supervision is similar in some respects to therapy but is not about the supervisor telling the T what to do or how to. It tends to be about work loads, schedules and responsibilities.

The boss is you but the buck needs to stop at your own therapist, so if your T is having a problem it should be up to them to sort it out. The T needs to be competent enough to recognize there own stuff, feelings and wellness and be able to support you while you work on becoming your own aurthority. And 'Who decides what is true?' YOU!

Hugs

I've never liked that gray analogy! It sounds so depressing! How about black and white and all the colors of the rainbow in between?

Colors don't work so well for a continuum? How do you compare green to yellow?

What's depressing about old movies? Their artistry is in their ability to do really good shades of gray.

I don't like the original analogy; opinions are not gray and they're not related to right or wrong anymore than all issues have a true/false, right or wrongness (which is better, apples or oranges?)

Green IS yellow, Perna, it just isn't ripe yet.

opinions can be partly right and partly wrong--ergo gray. my opinion that "the sky is blue because we're really underwater" is part right (the sky is blue) and part wrong (we're not underwater).

again i think it's both. we can have the grays (in the sense of partial truth or things being situationual) and all the colors of the rainbow for things like what shirt to wear, what flavor ice cream to eat, etc. which are just personal preference.

I want to apologize to you, Bloom; I realized when I was rereading that I sounded harsh and perhaps critical of you. I didn't mean to word it that way. You can see it as gray, that is how you see it and your choice of perception is not open to criticism or judgement by me, because it's about you. I like your explanation of shades of gray, that is one way I see continuums and I guess I see true to false as a continuum.

I believe opinions, situational things, personal preference, and personal belief are all somewhat the same and equally true/false. If you believe you are underwater, for you, you are underwater and since it's about you, that's all that matters. However, if you think you are underwater and you don't like it there, don't think you can breathe, then those who see something else, hopefully, will try to help you out so you can see things differently. However, if you're swimming through life (sorry, had to do that pun :-) in your underwater self and doing fine by you and not hurting me, then who am I to interfere?

In "truth" the sky is not blue, it is various bends in light, atmosphere, etc. (I learned "why" it looks blue when I took astronomy but have since forgotten :-) that makes it appear blue to most people but it's no different in color than any other part of space (so, "black"), it's just our atmosphere is doing tricks. I think that's most of what we perceive, and why there are so many opinions about everything and no "truth" that everyone accepts; human perception, thought, and even what we're trying to perceive isn't "static" but alive and changing all the time. The minute we say, "this is IT" guess what? It isn't anymore.

I don't believe we can know absolute Truth, we can just know what "works for us" as individuals and various groups we're part of and often, it only works for us for a particular period of time. However, we can believe we can know absolute Truth and guide our lives by that belief and that seems like a good idea to me, as long as we're constantly searching and testing what we believe we believe :-) and don't find "IT" and stop. Can't stop; Life is not controllable in that way.

I have never thought what "color" opinions might be, haven't ever looked at them from that perspective but kind of like Pachy's colors of the rainbow. In that case, I'd like most of my opinions to be colored green please! (My favorite color).

Taking a chance here... only a smidgeon of tease, really...

You care! Thank you.

no worries perna

there's a psychological term for this...denial. just because someone believes something doesn't make it true or real.

i think this would be a separate issue. just because we decide not to interfere with someone's delusion doesn't mean we have to pretend to also believe their delusion.

you're right. i was going to change it and say the sky "appears" blue but i figured people would realize i was using a mental & cultural shortcut. the appearance of the color of the sky does change but if i say it looks plaid what will you say then?

to say that there are only shades of gray is actually a rather black and white way of viewing things. another thing to remember is that truth is not predicated on all peoples' acceptance of it.

**trigger for this part re: the ramifications of relativism concerning physical & sexual abuse**

bringing the discussion back to the topic of psychology this is important because if we're talking about things like some of the especially heinous forms of abuse (that are discussed in this forum daily) then i don't see how we could ever say something like that is ever situational. do you really think there are instances where things like physical & sexual abuse are ever justifiable and therefore not wrong? (a rhetorical question not to be answered in this forum if the answer is yes so as not to trigger anyone) i don't know how anyone could ever say things like that are not always wrong and your way of thinking, if i am understanding you correctly, would logically lead to this conclusion. to say this would be to heap untold damage on those already traumatized.

**end trigger section**

because you don't believe it exists, right? i don't believe we can know all truth but i believe we can know some truth. you can't have all the shades of gray without first having black and white. we see in part but not completely and just because our view of truth changes i'm not sure that necessarily means truth always changes. while i fully agree that truth is not always static i'm not convinced it is either always in flux. again, i would tend to think it's probably a bothand. sorry, but i am no modernist but rather a chastened postmodernist.

i agree that to always keep striving to grow is a worthwhile goal but i see it as being and becoming rather than just being or just becoming. finding "it" doesn't necessitate stopping growing. we can build on what we have learned. i think it is wise to hold onto the good and release the bad rather than never holding onto anything.

again, i think it depends what these opinions are about. if they are moral issues then personally i think they would fall on the black, white & shades of gray spectrum. if they are opinions regarding personal preferences then yes all the colors of the rainbow are up for grabs. mine will be blue.

We can approach the truth, even if we probably never know it completely. It's all we can do; it's what's good for us to try to do.

My thoughts, anyway.