[sittingatwatersedge]

Last time I went to see T, I was hugely anxious before I ever got in there, and sat down holding a big tote bag on my lap.

About 50 minutes later, somehow (don''t ask me how) the conversation came around to Anthony Wiener and T said, that man has some serious impulse control issues. This was such preposterous T-doublespeak that it made me laugh out loud.

SAWE: Ask me something.
T: How are you feeling now?
SAWE: To be very honest, I am feeling pretty bummed that I don't have another half hour.
T: (brightly) Well, we have ten minutes.

I have read again and again that the "boundaries of the therapeutic frame" are supposed to be good for you. Including keeping strictly to the hour. Oh sure, I know that Life Has Rules, and You Can't Always Get What You Want, and yada yada yada, but why is this so inflexible, so rigid? what's so therapeutic about it?

[granite1]

i dont understand what T-doublespeak is ,but an interesting word.

i have so many mixed feelings about boundries in T.i have hed no boundries aand i know this doesnt work at all and have never questioned them untill i started seeing this T.i am having a hard time with some of her boundries.esp the e-mail.

[rainbow8]

I agree, SAWE!! My former T kicked out after 50 minutes to the second, except maybe once! I hated that and she made me cry when I left, many times. My current T gives me 1 1/2 hours and, when she doesn't have anyone else, lets me stay a little longer if we aren't "finished" or if I need to say something. Her less rigid boundaries make me feel that she cares about me as a person, that I'm not just her job.

I know boundaries are important, but I think T's sometimes go overboard with rigidity. It's not always in our best interest. It depends on the individual and on the session. Of course with clients waiting, a T can't give you time "over". Therapy is more of an art than a science, but they try to make it into a science, and I think that's a mistake!

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by granite1

i dont understand what T-doublespeak is ,but an interesting word.

((((( Granite ))))) Maybe I shouldn't say T-doublespeak. Maybe I should just call it T-speak.

it's my observation that Ts seem to have a vocabulary of their own, for perfectly ordinary things. Maybe it's based in the fact that they have to come up with non-shaming terms for a lot of sensitive stuff, but in the end they seem to invent a lot of bloodless, neutral-in-the-extreme terms in general.

just an example: Acting out, say in petty crime, risk taking, drug use, etc, becomes "tension reduction mechanisms".
And ways a person finds to get through overwhelming fear, mental anguish or stress become "coping strategies".
And, instead of voicing a personal opinion that someone acted like a pig, T says, "that man has some serious impulse-control issues". you see?

T-speak has been a frustration for me at times, when I have translate it into English before I can figure out what the heck T actually said; at other times it hits me funny... like that time. At least laughing about it did help me a bit with my "tension reduction" on that day.

there, now I've hijacked my own thread; I really wanted to hear about why rigid timekeeping boundaries are thought to be so therapeutic.

[SoupDragon]

lol - yes I have learned some of the lingo "zoned out" for example and I know there have been others, but have such an appalling memory, can't recall them.

My T is great with the time thing. We have 60 minutes, but on occasions have gone over this - never any more than 10 minutes and not frequently - but it is reassuring that it is there if it is felt to be useful. Sometimes my T will also just give me 5 minutes to sit there quietly gathering myself.

[Marie123]

When I first met my t, I asked him....why the psychobabble?! LOL, LOL....I mean these $1.00 words for simple meanings that we ALL understand.

Know what I think....at least subconsciusly, I think it is a kind of arrogance (I--meaning the T---know what I am talking about and YOU (client) don't).

[Marie123]

LOL, it is called, "psychobabble"---$1.00 words for normal words we all use and understand.

(As I stated below): I think at least on a subconscius level) the t's feel a superiority/arrogance at using these psychobabble words....In other words, I (underline the word, I) know what I am saying and YOU do not, LOl, LOL

That is what I think.

I mean, transference....fancy word for. FEELINGS!

Please.

s

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

((((( Granite ))))) Maybe I shouldn't say T-doublespeak. Maybe I should just call it T-speak.

it's my observation that Ts seem to have a vocabulary of their own, for perfectly ordinary things. Maybe it's based in the fact that they have to come up with non-shaming terms for a lot of sensitive stuff, but in the end they seem to invent a lot of bloodless, neutral-in-the-extreme terms in general.

just an example: Acting out, say in petty crime, risk taking, drug use, etc, becomes "tension reduction mechanisms".
And ways a person finds to get through overwhelming fear, mental anguish or stress become "coping strategies".
And, instead of voicing a personal opinion that someone acted like a pig, T says, "that man has some serious impulse-control issues". you see?

T-speak has been a frustration for me at times, when I have translate it into English before I can figure out what the heck T actually said; at other times it hits me funny... like that time. At least laughing about it did help me a bit with my "tension reduction" on that day.

there, now I've hijacked my own thread; I really wanted to hear about why rigid timekeeping boundaries are thought to be so therapeutic.

[Marie123]

P.S. "Impulse control" Maybe for puppies....Please...we all have CHOICES in our behavior....everything is an addiction now; takes people's bad behavior.....takes them off the hook.

As for Weiny: Arrogance put him where he is. He CHOSE to behave like a moron.

[Suratji]

Boundaries are tough but I guess we also have to look at it from T's point of view. What if they regularly had loose boundaries? What if the boundaries shifted from session to session or client to client? And without boundaries, wouldn't we be more confused about how we should interact with our therapists?

I think we believe there are only boundaries in our relationships with our T's. But we apply boundaries to every human relationship. Maybe you have a friend who visits but she knows not to visit in the morning - that is not a good time for you. That is a boundary. Take a look at your own lives and notice that they exist - implicitly or explicitly.

When I first accidentally crossed an unknown boundary with my T I was mortified. I almost quit therapy after that because I was so embarrassed. As it turned out we spent a whole session discussing my reaction to the boundary and it became clear that my reaction gave some clues to my own behavior in RL.

So, even though I understand the need for boundaries and I'm scrupulous in my attempt not to cross them, I still secretly wish that my T would add extra minutes to my session if we're in the middle of something. She had done that once but it was more for her satisfaction about something we were involved in rather than my need.

Oh well. I guess we could also imagine therapy without boundaries and what a nightmare that would be. So gratitude is in order actually. The boundaries give us a precise arena wherein to lay bare our souls and the safety that can be resident in that boundaried land is where our healing lies, I believe.

Oh, and yeah, the psycho-babble jargon can be frustrating sometimes.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

I have read again and again that the "boundaries of the therapeutic frame" are supposed to be good for you.

Yes, my T calls certain elements "the frame." I think of these as the nuts and bolts of the therapy arrangement: time of session, length of session, cost per session, how payment will be made, and site of session. The frame is elements agreed upon by the T and the client as being the way therapy will proceed (even though the client may wish for longer sessions in her/his ideal therapy world). I think of these as being different from boundaries, although this is probably just semantics. Boundaries might be whether I can ask my T how his weekend was and whether he answers. Has he established a boundary for clients knowing about his personal life? Boundaries would also include whether the T gives you a hug. If the T and client have established at the outset of therapy that there will be no physical contact, then this might be part of the frame. The client also has boundaries, such as whether physical touch is allowed, whether a T is allowed to know certain things about the client's life, etc. I think the frame also includes things like who T can tell about what goes on in your session (e.g. only when you or others are in danger because of you or if he has a signed release to communicate with someone else).

Not all Ts offer only one option for length of session to clients. I think how rigid a T is has a lot to do with that T's theoretical approach and personality. Ts that are more analytical may favor a less flexible frame. Regardless of approach, some people are just more punctual and a-n-a-l about those things, and I think this will be reflected in their sticking to the minute to a schedule, not offering sessions of different lengths, etc. Of course there is also the desire to keep on schedule for the sake of the clients who come later so they won't have to wait. My T's standard appointment is 50 minutes, with 10 minutes in between clients. He is not a super punctual sort of guy, so this slides a lot. He uses his 10 minutes between clients to make up the lateness and sometimes takes no break. Ever with this accommodation, we still frequently start late. My T never shorts me time, though, but puts extra minutes onto the end of my session. There are many times we have session last longer than 50 minutes. My session probably starts on time, to the minute, less than 10% of the time. I am OK with this. I do not interpret it as meaning he doesn't care about or respect me, and it doesn't make me feel insecure (safety is sometimes touted as a reason Ts should stick rigidly to a frame). I am pretty easygoing with time myself, so my T and I are a good fit in this regard. I just budget into my session some extra "slop time" on the end of the session. I know there are clients who would be upset if their T was so consistently late. They might do better to seek a different T who is a better fit for their need for tight scheduling. When I need to end my session very promptly due to an obligation that follows, I email T the day before and tell him this, and he makes an effort to get me my full time by the agreed upon end to the session. He appreciates these heads up emails from me. Last session, he ran late, and wanted to talk about that. He said that the reason why is that sometimes there is an important breakthrough near the end of a session or that the person is going over very sensitive material, and he wants to provide extra time. He has done the same for me. I think this shows he has a desire to move therapy along for the client. If he abruptly ended the session at a key time, it might be hard to return to that moment of importance, trust, and openness the next time. This just helps make progress. (I think he is a savvy enough T that he would know if a client consistently tried to manipulate the frame just to get more minutes, and he would handle this.)

I don't know why, but I once thought the only option for a session with my T was 50 minutes. When we began meeting less than weekly, I had a hard time with the longer period between sessions. It was only 2 weeks (now we often do 3-4 weeks), but it seemed sooo hard to maintain the connection. T and I discussed this, and it turns out he had noticed the problem too. He proposed a solution: we would have 90 minute sessions. This was such a great idea and has helped us so much! So I don't see rigidity there from him. He sometimes also schedules EMDR clients for longer sessions.

The child therapist I saw for my kids during my divorce gave me a 4 hour session the first time. She just let us go as long as we needed. We got through a ton of material. It was very efficient and saved me the time and effort of going to see her 4 times spread out over a month. She told me the reason she does this at the first meeting is for efficiency.

So I think there is variety out there with how Ts manage time and schedules. Some Ts are more rigid. My daughter's T, for example, wants her to come weekly all the time. But my daughter wants a more flexible schedule. She may go weekly for a few weeks at a time, then take a break of a couple weeks, then go every other week for a while, then back to weekly. It's what she needs and too bad the T wants her there weekly, LOL. So the client does have some control. My daughter has just never agreed to her T's most preferred "frame" so it is not really part of their frame.

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

I really wanted to hear about why rigid timekeeping boundaries are thought to be so therapeutic.

I think you may know all this, SAWE, but this page contains an official explanation of why:
http://www.jung-at-heart.com/jung_at...tic_frame.html

Sorry to go on so much. For some reason the "frame" is a fascinating topic to me!

[Daisymay]

I think that on the whole it is a good idea to have the limit of length of session. My first T (whom I still have contact with occassionally) is flexible. In the early days when I used to end up getting very upset during sessions she always gave me extra time to get myself together before we finished. My second T (whom I've now finished with) was very, very strict on time. One time I was still in tears and shaking at the end of a session and she still thought it was okay to call time and expect me to get up from the chair without falling over, walk down the stairs without tripping up and get in my car and drive myself home. In the end I just sat in my car for ten minutes listening to the radio until I felt better.

I learnt not to leave bringing up difficult things too far into the sessions.

It does feel a bit unreasonable and cruel at times doesn't it? We wouldn't dream of ushering our friends out the door if they were upset or needed more time would we? But then therapists are working and may have other clients after us so it's not easy. The limit on the time may be more helpful at times than we think.

[Indie'sOK]

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I agree, SAWE!! My former T kicked out after 50 minutes to the second

Mine does this too, and it depends on the session whether I dislike it or not. I guess I've just come to accept that this is her way of keeping boundaries, that she's firm on acting "professional" by doing this and not making the next client wait, like my Old T did. I can appreciate that, especially after experiencing Old T's loose boundaries.

[granite1]

Originally Posted by sittingatwatersedge

((((( Granite ))))) Maybe I shouldn't say T-doublespeak. Maybe I should just call it T-speak.

it's my observation that Ts seem to have a vocabulary of their own, for perfectly ordinary things. Maybe it's based in the fact that they have to come up with non-shaming terms for a lot of sensitive stuff, but in the end they seem to invent a lot of bloodless, neutral-in-the-extreme terms in general.

just an example: Acting out, say in petty crime, risk taking, drug use, etc, becomes "tension reduction mechanisms".
And ways a person finds to get through overwhelming fear, mental anguish or stress become "coping strategies".
And, instead of voicing a personal opinion that someone acted like a pig, T says, "that man has some serious impulse-control issues". you see?

T-speak has been a frustration for me at times, when I have translate it into English before I can figure out what the heck T actually said; at other times it hits me funny... like that time. At least laughing about it did help me a bit with my "tension reduction" on that day.

there, now I've hijacked my own thread; I really wanted to hear about why rigid timekeeping boundaries are thought to be so therapeutic.

thanks got it thanks SWE

I don't know how you guys do it. Just stop on the minute? I did have to do that when I first started therapy. I was the last appointment of the day and so we had to leave when the building was closing. That meant that we had to stop at 50 minutes. I hated that. I never felt like I was getting anywhere.

I expressed this frustration with my therapist. Since summer was coming up, and I was out for the summer, she said that we would have more time to talk. This is when our sessions started going to 90 minutes. Same fee, just longer time.

This makes it so much better. I get so much more accomplished. After that summer, we kinda stuck with 90 minutes. I just took off from work a little earlier so that I could make an earlier appointment.

During the summer, we have gone as long as 2 hours. This is normally her call. I try to start finishing up when I see that we have gone about an hour and twenty minutes. She does not have back to back clients, so this works for us.

I do see that time boundaries are important. But I don't see how that can be therapeutic. It would be a disaster for me if I only had 50 minutes.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by Daisymay

I learnt not to leave bringing up difficult things too far into the sessions.

Yeah, me too. Yesterday T asked me a pretty key question in session, but we only had 10 minutes left, so I deferred that discussion until later. It would have been very dissatisfying to try to address something that major with so little time left, because I've done that, and it was not good!

I often get annoyed at the 50 minute limit because I always feel like its just not enough. I hate being cut off before I am ready to leave. On the flipside, I understand why this limit is there. I think someone may have mentioned in another thread about getting some of your needs met by T but within the context of the relationship for what it is. I think T puts that there to model that there are always limits to things. So, in a nutshell, like Sunrise just said, its the "frame". I often depise the "frame" lol, but gotta keep on truckin!

[Flooded]

My pdoc has very strict boundaries with me because she knows what I did to my last t

Boundaries are important to show you that the time will always be the same. It should never really be more, or less. If T did not have boundaries and decided to run over, that would impact the next client. If that next client was you, that wouldn't feel very good. So there's that boundary to show you the 50-60 minutes is yours to use however you like.

[lastyearisblank]

Most of the time I'm dying for the 50 minutes to be up. Perhaps it's a reaction-formation. If I can't have more time, I don't want it.

[sittingatwatersedge]

just a followup...
yesterday T brought me in late, and we ended on time, but it was an extremely difficult session for me and she made time at the end of it to ground me before I went out. This was a first ever for us, and it was a little shocking to me ("Are you grounding me?!" "Yes") but I am very grateful that she is watching out for me to that extent. T this is for you... if permitted ...

((((((((sawe))))))))

It feels so good to be taken care of in that way. I'm glad T noticed that you needed that, and gave it to you. I think I will give her one of these too ->

And some for you too

[WikidPissah]

I like the boundary. My T runs late a lot, and I hate it, so when I am in there I need to be timely because I don't want to piss the next person off. I also am really strict with myself, so boundaries make me feel safer.

My t runs his sessions about 50-55 minutes longs with consistency. He has a full schedule and if he didn't keep that boundary and let sessions run over, it would be chaos quite frankly. I wouldn't want to be the person waiting because he let time run over with the person ahead of me. He does that on very rare occasions (maybe 2 or 3 times in all these years), but only when I was not being followed by another patient. I've only had to wait on him a couple of times and he came out to let me know both times. Only once was it more than a few minutes, and that time the problem was that it was an initial visit with parents involved who didn't speak English so there was translating going on.

I have never wanted longer sessions. T is very good at being sure I am ready to leave when time is up, not in the middle of something upsetting. I would find more than an hour pretty exhausting.

T and i were actually discussing boundaries last night. i like them, makes things feel safe. i know what time session starts and what time it ends. i know where it will happen and that t will sit in his chair and i can sit wherever i want (the floor)

i like boundaries, they make me feel safe in an unpredictable world

[dismissed feelings]

I get the time boundary thing. The problem is some people cannot redirect or seguae very well and it feels really abrupt and, in my words, TOTALLY YUCKY!

The other boundaries can be a bit more mystifying.