Do these sorts of things really help?

Having defined goals helps me measure how helpful therapy is or isn't. I've found it helpful at half a dozen times in my life, but then I take breaks in between when I feel like I've gone as far with that bout as I can. So I'll go for a year, off for three. Back on with someone else for three years, off for two, etc. Each time I go back for a reason. I'm not like Woody Allen--I don't see the point in going forever, just to endlessly analyze myself. But that's me. Other people probably aren't as goal-oriented, and that's fine.

Right now I go just to keep myself accountable, because my spouse has good insurance and it's cheap to go. At an earlier point in my life it wasn't cheap at all but I still did whatever I could to keep going because my illness was critical. Now, not so much. It gets slowly better.

Honestly the thing that has helped me more than anything, therapy included, was getting on the right meds. It was like flipping a switch and suddenly turning 'normal'. Like, wow--THIS is what I'm SUPPOSED to feel like! What a revelation.

So - have you seen the light? That it takes two to tango? Are you watching Nancy Grace on Dancing With The Stars? It takes two to therapize, is my point. I read somewhere that when therapy is near the end, an observer would not be able to tell who is the therapist and who is the client. As in these dancing shows?

So - have you seen the light? That it takes two to tango? Are you watching Nancy Grace on Dancing With The Stars? It takes two to therapize, is my point. I read somewhere that when therapy is near the end, an observer would not be able to tell who is the therapist and who is the client. As in these dancing shows?

I have found that therapy is a lot like knitting-- I've been knitting for about 10 years, and I spin yarn on a spinning wheel too (from fiber directly off the sheep or other creatures, sometimes). It gets me outta my head.

I am not one of those intuitive knitters, you know, someone who can pick up yarn and then just make a perfect-fitting sweater. I have to follow a pattern, which in knitting terms, is just a set of step by step instructions. The first time I knit from a pattern, I read the pattern before I started, and it made absolutely no sense to me. I took it to my local knitshop and asked the expert knitter on staff why this pattern didn't make any sense and why was I so dumb that I couldn't understand it.
She said, essentially, there is no way that the pattern can make sense to you in the abstract.
YOu cannot possibly visualize how the sweater will be completed by reading the pattern. You
have to just do it-- take it step by step. You start by making the neckline. Once you finish the neck, you will understand how you create more stitches for the sleeves. And she was right.

Anne

Take the coat off of some of them, and it becomes hard to distinguish.

I have found that therapy is a lot like knitting-- I've been knitting for about 10 years, and I spin yarn on a spinning wheel too (from fiber directly off the sheep or other creatures, sometimes). It gets me outta my head.

I am not one of those intuitive knitters, you know, someone who can pick up yarn and then just make a perfect-fitting sweater. I have to follow a pattern, which in knitting terms, is just a set of step by step instructions. The first time I knit from a pattern, I read the pattern before I started, and it made absolutely no sense to me. I took it to my local knitshop and asked the expert knitter on staff why this pattern didn't make any sense and why was I so dumb that I couldn't understand it.

She said, essentially, there is no way that the pattern can make sense to you in the abstract. YOu cannot possibly visualize how the sweater will be completed by reading the pattern. You have to just do it-- take it step by step. You start by making the neckline. Once you finish the neck, you will understand how you create more stitches for the sleeves. And she was right.

I've used a lot of knitting patterns since then, and although I often have a general idea of how the garment will emerge by reading the instructions, I've found that reading ahead of where I am can actually mess me up. Because rather than focusing on the instruction for what I'm doing right now, I was anticipating the next step and sort of subconsciously adjusting the current step to "fit" what I thought would come next. Wrong. Had to rip that entire part out and start from the beginning of the "adjusted" step.

Anne LaMott has a good book on writing called "Bird by Bird." The story for the title comes from her childhood, when her brother had a substantial report due on birds of the northwest or whatever. He was overwhelmed by the substance of what he had to do (how many birds, something like 20, essentially 20 separate summaries of each bird assigned to him) and he had so little time to do it. How can I possibly do this???! He complained to his Dad.

Bird by bird, said his Dad.

It seems to me, stopdog, that this is pretty much what you are doing. You have something that you need to do that is quite a substantial "product", which is to fix what's not working for you in your life. You're spending a lot of time, effort, and money trying to get various T's to explain to you either/or both what the finished product is going to look like and how it can possibly be written? I think that by focusing on the process, you get to avoid your birds, the substance of what you need to do. You have acknowledged that focusing on the process hasn't worked for you, and now you just have to be brave enough to start on your birds. IMO, of course.

Anne

And can anyone explain what "trust the relationship" means? Trust it to do what?

I have found that therapy is a lot like knitting-- I've been knitting for about 10 years, and I spin yarn on a spinning wheel too (from fiber directly off the sheep or other creatures, sometimes). It gets me outta my head.

I am not one of those intuitive knitters, you know, someone who can pick up yarn and then just make a perfect-fitting sweater. I have to follow a pattern, which in knitting terms, is just a set of step by step instructions. The first time I knit from a pattern, I read the pattern before I started, and it made absolutely no sense to me. I took it to my local knitshop and asked the expert knitter on staff why this pattern didn't make any sense and why was I so dumb that I couldn't understand it.

She said, essentially, there is no way that the pattern can make sense to you in the abstract. YOu cannot possibly visualize how the sweater will be completed by reading the pattern. You have to just do it-- take it step by step. You start by making the neckline. Once you finish the neck, you will understand how you create more stitches for the sleeves. And she was right.

I've used a lot of knitting patterns since then, and although I often have a general idea of how the garment will emerge by reading the instructions, I've found that reading ahead of where I am can actually mess me up. Because rather than focusing on the instruction for what I'm doing right now, I was anticipating the next step and sort of subconsciously adjusting the current step to "fit" what I thought would come next. Wrong. Had to rip that entire part out and start from the beginning of the "adjusted" step.

Anne LaMott has a good book on writing called "Bird by Bird." The story for the title comes from her childhood, when her brother had a substantial report due on birds of the northwest or whatever. He was overwhelmed by the substance of what he had to do (how many birds, something like 20, essentially 20 separate summaries of each bird assigned to him) and he had so little time to do it. How can I possibly do this???! He complained to his Dad.

Bird by bird, said his Dad.

It seems to me, stopdog, that this is pretty much what you are doing. You have something that you need to do that is quite a substantial "product", which is to fix what's not working for you in your life. You're spending a lot of time, effort, and money trying to get various T's to explain to you either/or both what the finished product is going to look like and how it can possibly be written? I think that by focusing on the process, you get to avoid your birds, the substance of what you need to do. You have acknowledged that focusing on the process hasn't worked for you, and now you just have to be brave enough to start on your birds. IMO, of course.

Anne

I do read Anne Lamott. Bird by Bird was the first book of hers I read. There is a poem in it I love.

Nobody ever got any writing done by reading books about writing. I doubt that very little, if anything, happens therapeutically, by reading books about therapy. I also doubt that anyone's been healed by talking about the theoretical possibilities around the process of healing.

Anne

I do not read her as a therapy author. I read her because she is funny. i was responding to your mention of her book. The poem is one of the funniest I have ever read( it was not written by her though).
Again, the point of this thread was something else entirely.

" ....all the things they HAVE gained from our work together. Positive moments. Connection. Any transitional objects. Positive affirmations in session, etc."

And can anyone explain what "trust the relationship" means? Trust it to do what?

So if someone goes into therapy because of anxiety or depression or anger or whatever - then positive moments, connections, positive affirmations in session, etc are seen as a positive thing that you have gained? Not just something not unpleasant that occurs during the appointment, but actually something you have gained? And they help some people with the underlying reason for going even if they did not go in looking for connections, positive moments etc.? (subtle attempt to get thread back on track)

I do not expect them to tell me specific things to do (that may be the one and only thing i do understand about therapy). I do expect them to be able to explain how it works. Then the hope
for me is I could take the Information and figure out how to use it for myself. cBT was not useful for me and the people I consulted on it suggested it was not the approach that would help me.
But why I was asking in this thread is that I am trying to see if the things like I mentioned in my
first post were things others found useful. I do not understand how or why they they are, and to me they do not sound useful (please note, I am not questioning people's responses that they have found these things useful-I believe it when people respond they have been for them) but was curious about others.

Another way to try to explain why experiencing the feeling during therapy is important is because you've already tried to understand the feelings or behaviors intellectually. Understanding them intellectually didn't work to change the feelings, and the behavior they cause, the way you want to change it. So if you actually experience the feelings you need to change, and the therapist explains how to change it right then, it can help you understand more genuinely. It is an emotional understanding instead of an intellectual understanding.

May I ask what it helps you do?

IKind of like a security blanket that a kid might carry

I think the way therapy works involves practicing talking about the feelings and experiencing the feelings while you're talking to the therapist. Sometimes if you're experiencing them, the therapist can help you interpret the feelings differently than you normally do. It's important to be feeling them during the therapy session because then you understand (feel) them for real, not just intellectually. Then if you start to interpret them differently, sometimes you start to feel differently and you're motivated to behave differently.

Another way to try to explain why experiencing the feeling during therapy is important is because you've already tried to understand the feelings or behaviors intellectually. Understanding them intellectually didn't work to change the feelings, and the behavior they cause, the way you want to change it. So if you actually experience the feelings you need to change, and the therapist explains how to change it right then, it can help you understand more genuinely. It is an emotional understanding instead of an intellectual understanding.

Also if the therapist watches you feel the feeling or demonstrate the behavior, they might understand it better than if you just explain it.

Does any of that make sense?

I don't like CBT for myself either. I'm glad you don't want to do it

I agree with this. My t has told me that therapy is not an exercise in intellect, because if it were, then there would be a LOT less clients/patients. It's really an exercise in emotion/feelings, which for people like me, is VERY difficult because I've never believed my feelings/emotions deserved any attention; they always came second to others' feelings/emotions for various reasons. Plus, I'm a HIGHLY rational, critically thinking person - I NEED STUFF TO MAKE SENSE TO SEE THE RELEVANCE! - so concentrating on the feeling and emotion behind the intellect has been incredibly difficult.

stopdog, I totally understand where you're coming from with all of this. I don't understand HOW or WHY this works. I don't think we're ever going to get the answer we're looking for. I'm just trying to push that aside and trust the net is down at the bottom somewhere; I have nothing left to do. I am frequently asked by people (who know i'm in t) if it's "helping" and I don't know how to answer that. I mean, I guess it is. But only if I don't think about it too hard (which is an exercise in itself for me). *sigh*

I have found that therapy is a lot like knitting-- I've been knitting for about 10 years, and I spin yarn on a spinning wheel too (from fiber directly off the sheep or other creatures, sometimes). It gets me outta my head.

I am not one of those intuitive knitters, you know, someone who can pick up yarn and then just make a perfect-fitting sweater. I have to follow a pattern, which in knitting terms, is just a set of step by step instructions. The first time I knit from a pattern, I read the pattern before I started, and it made absolutely no sense to me. I took it to my local knitshop and asked the expert knitter on staff why this pattern didn't make any sense and why was I so dumb that I couldn't understand it.

She said, essentially, there is no way that the pattern can make sense to you in the abstract. YOu cannot possibly visualize how the sweater will be completed by reading the pattern. You have to just do it-- take it step by step. You start by making the neckline. Once you finish the neck, you will understand how you create more stitches for the sleeves. And she was right.

I've used a lot of knitting patterns since then, and although I often have a general idea of how the garment will emerge by reading the instructions, I've found that reading ahead of where I am can actually mess me up. Because rather than focusing on the instruction for what I'm doing right now, I was anticipating the next step and sort of subconsciously adjusting the current step to "fit" what I thought would come next. Wrong. Had to rip that entire part out and start from the beginning of the "adjusted" step.

Anne LaMott has a good book on writing called "Bird by Bird." The story for the title comes from her childhood, when her brother had a substantial report due on birds of the northwest or whatever. He was overwhelmed by the substance of what he had to do (how many birds, something like 20, essentially 20 separate summaries of each bird assigned to him) and he had so little time to do it. How can I possibly do this???! He complained to his Dad.

Bird by bird, said his Dad.

It seems to me, stopdog, that this is pretty much what you are doing. You have something that you need to do that is quite a substantial "product", which is to fix what's not working for you in your life. You're spending a lot of time, effort, and money trying to get various T's to explain to you either/or both what the finished product is going to look like and how it can possibly be written? I think that by focusing on the process, you get to avoid your birds, the substance of what you need to do. You have acknowledged that focusing on the process hasn't worked for you, and now you just have to be brave enough to start on your birds. IMO, of course.

Anne

Great post, I have been told so many times to read Bird by Bird for writing and other courses. Had no idea it was so relevant to therapy.

To answer the OP, therapy has helped me connect to other people and I think connect to my feelings. And those special "moments" have been really important. For me it was about breaking the ice. Talking about and naming these feelings has helped me respect that the point of life is not to eliminate feeling negative. And I feel like it has helped that those moments haven't necessarily been about T having all the right answers but it's more a joint process of discovery.

On some levels I disagree that therapy is not an exercise in intellect. Clearly, at first, there has to be some acknowledgment and experience of emotion - both good and bad.

However, later, I think it is important to be able to step back and rationally evaluate our approach to our own emotions, our behaviors and the things that our holding us back.

I think it's important to blend both the intellect with the emotion, and that is how real change occurs.