Bah this will not go well

I probably overstated or exaggerated my past.

I do not understand. What I was trying to say is the techniques you described I already use and they have never been able to stop what is going on now with me. I always feel some degree of bad with no rational basis and at times, like now, it gets very bad. It is not rational, no one is doing this to me, I have done nothing wrong, when I do something wrong, it can usually be fixed and none of that stops me feeling really horrible and I am shaking and throwing up and waiting to be annihilated right now - I know I will not be - the knowledge does not matter. In a few weeks (at worst it lasted over a year and sent me back into therapy this time) it will probably fade back to my usual sense of being wrong with no basis rather than this overwhelming sense of it. Therapy has not been able to stop it. Or as far as I can see, even lessen it.

I think you are probably UNDER-exaggerating your past. I think it is a very, very strong defense in order to keep your world in line. It amazes me the power our parents hold over us--we protect them at all costs, no matter the abuse. Another thing my T has told me is that children are ego-centered. That is a basic fact--they believe the world revolves around them. When bad things are happening to them, they HAVE to believe it is something they did, or is their fault, because to believe that it was the fault of their parents/abusers and that is way too dangerous for the child. It literally feels like life and death--you are completely dependent on them. You need to feel some sort of attachment to them because if you didn't, you are afraid you will lose the security and care and then you would die.

It is a hard concept to understand emotionally, and easier to understand intellectually.

As far as you seeing how you feel has no part in rationality, that is true as it doesn't make sense NOW. But (as I will keep stating), what you are feeling is real, and has roots somewhere. I think until you find that root, you can't work through these horrible feelings and find some relief. Have you ever thought of EMDR? It is very physical based, and not really emotional. The basic tenet is that trauma memories get "stuck" and are not processed in your brain, which is why you have these emotional flashbacks (your irrational feelings). You keep feeling these intense feelings over and over because the root of that feeling (trauma) is stuck in your brain and body. EMDR through bi-lateral stimulation reprocesses those memories and moves it through--greatly lessening your current feelings. This has worked really well with war veterans and people with serious abuse. It also works well with anyone who feels stuck in any way.

As long as you can have a sense of bodily awareness (that is SO HARD for me), you don't necessarily need to delve into a world of emotion.

Possible trigger si.

Causing enough harm or pain will (and is actually the only thing that I have ever found that works reliably other than enough time and sometimes it feels so intolerable I choose to stop it that way rather than suffer) stop or lessen how bad I feel right now and after I go to the therapist. What I will feel (if the past is any indication of how it will go this week) after I go to the therapist will only turn what I am feeling now into something more intolerable - and it is fairly awful (I know a strong word and I sort of cringe at the overstatement quality of it). Certainly one hopes ones other coping techniques will be useful this week such that it does not come to pass.

Actually I do not see any of this as self-hatred. I am not trying to be obstreperous - I just would never have called this self hatred.

I never though of EMDR as having any application to me. I will read about it.

Ah, you are trying to use a cause/effect/logical/rational part of your mind to solve a not rational feeling? Notice I did not say "irrational". Not to appear to split hairs, "not" rational is not the same as "irrational", if only as a connotative versus denotative context.

My husband and I use to argue because I enjoy fantasy as a subject and he doesn't "get" fantasy. He would do the whole, "irrational" thing, personally meaning the opposite of the "correct", "rational" mindset. But the way one thinks and/versus feels is not a dichotomy? It should not be right/wrong, rational/irrational only sort of proposition?

Can you mentally capture "this" and put it in a mental (Freudian slip, "metal"!) box without holes and drop it into a metal, thousands-of-feet-deep quarry hole filled with water? You don't have to kill it if you don't want to, just "lock it away" kind of like all the best genies and Jumanji game are?

I suspect that there is a rational explanation for the irrational behaviours/feelings that you are exhibiting right now.

I think there has been some conditioning here that has led you to feel this way, as I am not at all convinced that higher order human behaviours arise from no where, or for no reason. There is a context, or a set of them that explains why you do this.

Sometimes unlocking that explanation puts the power to stop it in your hands, sometimes not.

You've got to be frustrated out of your mind with therapy right now. Just re-stating the problem over and over again would drive me mad. Or at least to another visual aid presentation.

Sometimes I think we just have to go into a situation knowing that it's going to make us feel like crap, and just accept it. There's no amount or kind of therapy that's going to fix it. Sometimes I think that is one of the lessons of therapy.

I do agree with those who have stated that when one enters into the realm of emotion, then reason is useless. Maybe self-discipline and mental training can coerce our brains into a certain and different way of thinking, but it's very hard to brainwash yourself. Not impossible, but really hard.

Trying to stop a conditioned response can be like trying to stop a train. Perhaps the best thing you can do is just step out of the way and wait for the train to go by.

That sort of thing does not usually work for me. I consider it trickery.
I would be happy to kill off the emotions. Haven't seemed competent in doing it so far.

I am.

Then why won't the therapist tell me I am a lost cause? I ask every couple of weeks.
It is the only reason I go to therapy and even if I am avoidant/dismissively attachmenty-how does that fit into fixing this?

I sometime cancel and wait a week when I am like this. At least then I am not paying to feel worse for a week. I will probably cancel the appointment this week because of its high probability of making things worse.

This reminded me of an interview with Meryl Streep I once read. She was asked something about how she felt about her accomplishments, how she felt when she got a 'Best Actress' award or whatever, and she said something like "I got away with it again!"

Stopdog: I don't know what your T will tell you (only one way to find out!) but I reckon one might say something about your maybe having impossibly high standards for yourself...?

1. So you know I wasn't mocking you about the physics stuff. my "staying at rest" is part of my plan to serve as my own control group, ie reduce all the variables to zero so the only thing affecting me is therapy, so I can get "clean" results, or just results, period. equal and opposite reaction - I know psychology isn't physics and vice versa, but (2.) skysblue asked if repression ever worked and you can deny that what happened in your past affects you now, but the answer is still that physics and truth won't allow it not to - repression will out.

Anyway, what I think we're seeing, from Snuff's story, mine, and maybe some others, is that what has to happen is, T messes up and you have to be able to forgive her. Since you can't forgive this T, at least partly because she won't apologize, the therapy might be at an impasse. You might be able to travel some sideroads, but there will always be this major roadblock. I notice you still mention it, and I am just saying that because recently people have said to me, "gee, I didn't think anyone noticed." The hankster reads all, sees all, remembers all, and effs up everything! oh well, I try to be supportive!

Hankster -I did not think you were mocking me.
She did finally apologize but it took almost a year. I am just very careful with her now. She will probably not mock me over this. But telling her or anyone really, any more than what I have put down here, will not make it better. Sharing my feelings with the therapist does nothing but add to the feeling of the wrongedness of me. I know I am not wrong in reality. I do not act like it is. My actions/behaviors are generally fine.
But I do not understand how talking to this stranger is supposed to help me or how it helps others or what about it I am doing wrong.

First of all (and possibly adding to your frustration and annoyance, which is not my intent AT ALL), I'm really glad to hear that your big project went well and that others acknowledged that you did well at the task.

I think I get where you are coming from - I am a perfectionist, and I typically make very careful, well-planned decisions. I like order and schedules, and I have high expectations for myself and others. Sometimes my T will say things like, "Well, do you think you can leave some dirty dishes in the sink?" and I kind of want to hit him.

But anyway, getting back to YOU - I hope you decide to go to your T this week. Try to talk to her and just see how it goes. If it's her typical response, maybe ask her if she has any new ideas that you haven't already tried. Even if that's a bust, it may help just to talk it through with her. Don't cancel.

Stopdog, you might want to jump over to the site of National Educational Alliance of Borderline Personality Disorder. Look to the right of the page and click on the past phone in calls. Glance down the list of phone in and click on Dr. Frank Yoeman's talk. He does an excellent talk on perfectionism and the pain of being in therapy with those we view as "incompetent therapists". Don't be put off by the Narcissistic title of the talk. I see a lot of what you're talking about in what he was saying. Also, don't be put off by the Borderline site. I'm not saying anyone, you included, is Borderline, but I think his views on the narcissistic wounding that comes with being vulnerable in therapy situations is excellent. I know that I've quit therapy enough times when I feel that I need to take a breather and regain control.

But I am not a perfectionist I don't think. My sink has dirty dishes in it right now. My office has stacks of papers, I rarely schedule things, my syllabi are sketchy and just give topics because I do not like being pinned down and so on. I sometimes don't fold laundry but just take clean stuff out of the basket until it is empty and the other basket is filled with the worn.

I will check out the site. The therapist(s) have never said anything about borderline and neither have any tests. Stubborn and anxious have been mentioned as well as resistant. Happily I rarely appear as anxious as I feel. They have used various terms to describe my parents.

Emotions need to be treated with respect not contempt in order to become more manageable. When you try to kill them off, they just sprout another head like the hydra. You judge your feelings so harshly. Doing this creates a sucking whirlpool of judgment that is nearly inescapable. Have you tried mindfulness work? It doesn't work in a trice, but it can be effective at least in reducing the secondary distress that we have about our initial emotions.

How about intransigent?

When it is not this bad, meditation helps. I guess it helps now too, just not as much as I would like.

She likely won't tell you that you are a lost cause because you aren't.

I have no idea how attachment is going to help you with this, or if it will.

However, If you decide that uncovering why you feel this way is of benefit, then having a safe person to discuss that "why" with may be important. Maybe that safety will come out of that attachment.

Sometimes uncovering that "why" behind a feeling drains the power behind it. I mean what's happening here is essentially a work thing right? You know it's just a work thing, yet it seems to have gotten way bigger than a work thing. It may be of benefit to understand what that "big" thing is. Psychotherapy I think can really help, if you chose to go that route.

However, there are plenty of things that I've encountered in my therapy and life that have ultimately come down to "okay, now I know. So what".

Other things have had to come into play. Distress tolerance is a big one. The course of treatment for borderline personality disorder can really be of benefit for some. It's call DBT or Dialectical behavior therapy. It doesn't mean you have borderline personality disorder at all.

In my opinion, DBT is essentially Buddhism on worksheets, but, there are some real nuggets of truth in it. Some really powerful stuff about how to lose the emotions about your emotions.

I know it's helped a lot of people to learn how to let the train go by without agonizing over every second it takes to do so.

Might be worth a looksie.

I agree with everything here (partly because I always picture Donna Douglas in pigtails and a midriff blouse holding a chimpanzee sitting by the side of the cee-ment pond), but I would add, DBT provides information about emotions that makes them much more palatable, if not manageable.

ALSO re dirty dishes in the sink - procrastination and hoarding is as much a symptom of perfectionism as a spotless house. FAILED perfectionism maybe, but nonetheless! There is still the anxiety, the fear of failure, behind it. This is kinda my area of expertise. Unfortunately. My desk at work would be messily piled high - but I could find any document immediately.

I don't think distress tolerence is the problem. I have read a little about dbt and did not seem useful for me. I will read more on it, but it seemed perilously like the completely worthless to me cbt. I know i am doing okay. I tell myself nothing is going badly and I know I am okay and have not screwed anything up. I know no one is after me and so forth. That is not the problem.
All of therapy has been okay so what? Even if I had some slightly unpleasant things occur in my past, what difference does it make or how does that info mean I can stop feeling this bad over nothing?
It is not a work thing at all. The work thing just blew it up. It is a constant feeling of wrongness that is not based on reality. I sought therapy to see if there was anyway to lessen the distress so I did not have to tolerate so much of it. Every interaction with another human is fraught with some level of peril in terms how badly I could screw it up. I know that it is not true, but that is how it feels. The two therapists have even said therapy could help lessen the distress. Literally said that. They have also said they do not worry about my actions or behaviors - i know how to act like a rational person and mostly do so ( unless one considers continuing to go to therapy when it only makes it worse. Not suprisingly they both deny it is the therapy making it worse, although one said it often seems like it for awhile). They have even both said they understand what I mean when I tell them enough pain brings relief. What they don't tell me is how me talking about this stuff is supposed to help when it seems to add more horribleness, not lessen it any.

[quote=stopdog;2290941]I finished a big (to my little world) thing at work this week and nothing got completely screwed up - mostly others were overly complimentary about it. But I feel horrible and like I did something wrong and all the ways it could have been better or I could have been better- AND I know I did not screw anything up, and that really no one else really cares even if something had gone wrong. quote]

I don't know, Stopdog, that sounds pretty much like prefectionist thinking to me, but I could be wrong. I know that I do similar thinking when completing projects. I arrive earlier than everyone else at work and leave later. All my projects and presentations are planned to the letter and I still angst about whether or not I could have done better. . .. and for the record, I've got dirty dishes in the sink, a floor that needs to be swept and the livingroom rug with cat hairs on it. But no one at work "sees" my house and I don't worry about that. It is in the outside world that I strive to be perfect and always angst that I could have done more. . . and when I think I've somehow failed, I worry about anniliation and humiliation. . . two pretty strong words that often indicate an inner prefectionistic belief.
But that's me and you have to find your path and I do know you're working on it!

Perhaps closetted perfectionist. I act very easy going. Nothing is all that big of a deal and most things can be fixed.

Sadly, although humiliation is both possible and probable, annhilation never comes. It would at least end the humiliation. That therapist has said humiliation is a bigger deal to me than to some others. I thought everyone hated being humiliated.

stopdog ""It is a constant feeling of wrongness that is not based on reality. I sought therapy to see if there was anyway to lessen the distress so I did not have to tolerate so much of it. Every interaction with another human is fraught with some level of peril in terms how badly I could screw it up. I know that it is not true, but that is how it feels.""
..........
Stopdog, that must be so uncomfortable; to know it doesn't have a rational basis but still be feeling it...and so intensely. It seem like you've boiled it all down to this consise take on what you go through and now all you need is a therapist who can try to 'experience' what it is like with you and then begin to 'get' you and be with you as you sort it out. I have visualized problems that I've had similar to this as a big tangled mess that I seems impossible to unwind. It takes a lot of time and processing work. My t reminds me that therapy is a process. So far we've untangled one major mess and that came as a relief.

Thanks for sharing your struggle with us. It seems to have struck a chord with many and we care about how you go about working this out. -BJ

okay, my last thought for the night (because it's almost time for my OTHER favorite lawyer ladies on The Good Wife, Christine Baranski and Alan Cumming (tee hee!)) heck now what was I gonna say? about how I was "converted" - oh yeah! I finished out my career getting thrown out of a "supposably" good job. I was like, what the frick happened to me? how did I end up at ground zero after 30 yrs of working my butt off - at work and I THOUGHT in therapy? I would have said the same thing as you, dog - my past wasn't that bad. But once I was absolutely hit bottom, I finally forced myself to look at it differently these past two years, and put together a different narrative. What I thought were minor, thoughtless, throwaway comments, I now saw as plot turning points. I'm "lucky" in that my mother was still here to explain what she meant, but i'm still just as stupid for not asking way back then, and the years cannot be relived, but you can get a new point of view on the past, and that can make a difference to how you feel today.

no one likes being humiliated, but many people don't fear it in every interaction like you do. it isn't something that i really ever think about--the worst would be embarrassment that I would look stupid.

Thank you all for letting me wrestle with you. I will check out the suggestions.

You know what, Stopdog, humiliation is a VERY VERY strong word. I know when I force myself to think of true humiliation, I realize it is about being recognized as a pediphile, being seen as an abusive father or mother, being seen in the eyes of others as a cheat, thief or abuser. . .. I have to ask myself, have I done any of those things? Uh, no! Then how could I truly and realistically be humiliated? I GET it that in my mind, the mind that is influenced and trained by my family that I should FEEL humiliation, but in reality, what I've done is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO ANYTHING THAT NEEDS TO ELICIT HUMILITY!!!!! The sad part of this? I can't balance what I know intellectually with what I have learned emotionally. I continue to feel as though I need to be better and perfect. . .. I am narcissistic in my thinking? Yes. Am I narcissistic in my dealings with others? Nope. Mainly with myself and how I should act, think, be and/or exist in this world.

Sorry. Humiliation is probably the wrong word. It is not that bad and I have probably overstated it. Embarrassed does not seem to quite fully cover it, but often language is damnably imprecise.