Bah this will not go well

stopdog, I am not sure I have much helpful to say except I understand how you feel. I have done a fair amount of trial work. I have never lost a civil trial. However, after EVERY trial, EVERY EVERY trial, I would be unable to sleep the night after, going over and over in my head everything I did wrong. I spent literally weeks beating myself up mentally and emotionally over what I should have done differently. And that was when I won! I kept dreading the day I would finally lose, to the point where I started vomiting blood. At that point, the doctor suggested a break from trial work might benefit me.

Now I primarily do appellate work, but with every brief I write, I wonder if this is the time I just cannot write the brief at all, or if this is the time I totally screw it up and everyone discovers what a fraud I am.

I wish I could refer you to my T. He's so great about explaining things and giving actual, helpful, concrete suggestions. When you feel X, do Y. Maybe I should tell him my fraud feelings this week and then relay his suggestions to you. His big thing about it so far has been to say that I have "incorporated" my abusers' voices and that abuse takes place in secret and part of the process is to "out" the abusive voice and not to allow it to continue to abuse me in secret. So, part of outing it is to discuss it with him, own it, and start interrupting it. Don't know if that was at all helpful. It sounds like you are already owning it and outing it, but your T is being totally unhelpful at helping you implement the interrupting it part.

Ours is culture of achievement, and it is easy to imagine that your worth lies only in your achievements. Worse: that worth comes only from continuous and uninterrupted achievement.

This is a trap that I myself have lived in for most of my life.

Most people grow up with mixed records: they win some, they lose some, life goes on.

But some of us are cursed with talent, and can avoid significant failure for decades at a time. We (yes we, because I am one) manage to avoid things we are not good at. We expect success, demand it, achieve it and expect even greater success next time round.

Perfection doesn't seem so far away. Maybe with a little more care, a little more effort we might achieve it?
And then: fame, fortune, sainthood, immortality?

As if.

No, this is not the thrust of it for me. i like to do things in a not terrible fashion so I don't get fired, but I generally don't go much further than that. I don't particularly care about winning except for the clients and I have very few of those these days, i don't want to be recognized for stuff -recognition is usually not good. I would prefer not to play the game at all, but there is that pesky need to pay for food, electricity and pet treats and I would not be good at living off the grid.

I want to know how and why why telling the therapist about feelings is supposed to help because I seem to be doing it wrong. (i do not think this is something that can be explained and I am not asking you all to try but I still want to know it) Telling her makes it worse for me.
I have failed over the course of two days to descibe what I am talking about accurrately and succinctly here. What chance does 50 minutes with the therapist have?

MKC -if you talk about fraud, it would be interesting to hear response.

stopdog, I didn't read your entire thread but it could be that EMDR could be helpful for you because it actually changes the way you perceive things. It makes new neural pathways. Does your T do EMDR? You haven't had luck with traditional therapy; EMDR is different. Just an idea.

Stopdog, I wish I could have been a fly on the wall at your home when you grew up. Your upbringing shapes you. If you want to get better I think that you need to examine what happened to you and how this has shaped you.

That's what doesn't work for you, I don't think. "I felt sad, angry, anxious, whatever. . .yesterday" does not have anything to do with whomever you are speaking with. Telling someone about, is not experiencing. Write a book and give it to them?

When we are experiencing anxiety or another emotion; often someone else can tell but if we're talking about that anxiety as we are experiencing it but are concentrated on the "about"/talk instead of the experience, we're missing the thrust of the energy. The map is not the territory, the experience of being at Kennedy Space Center when a rocket goes off is not the same as looking at a picture of that rocket taking off with someone and telling them about your experience.

When person X and person Y are together; they are having an experience of being together (whether they like or acknowledge it or not :-) That experience and experiencing that experience together in therapy is helpful because there's external feedback.

Ping pong anyone? Take an open box of ping pong balls and toss them against a wall in a closed room. What do you get? Now, take a single ball and hit it with a paddle to the person across the table, what do you get? That illustrates the difference for me between keeping with our thoughts and emotions to ourselves and working with them in therapy.

Is it just me, or is this a bit insensitive?

OMG, exactly how I'm feeling today about these people. Helps to know I'm not the only one

I thought that is what I was doing. The therapist asks about my past and I tell her to the best of my memory. It just is not helping any that I can see.

The therapist asks me questions and I answer them. She has not told me another way to do it and I certainly do not know what else I am supposed to do. I am confused at how else to do it. I do not know how to experience most of what I am telling the therapist with the therapist - the therapist is not a part of it.

I appreciate your concern and that you came to my aid - that was very sweet of you - thanks.
I did not think it was intended to be mean and took no offense.

hmmm. I didn't read everything in the entire thread; saw this this morning but had to go somewhere, so came back now.
anyway, your original post, I get that, stopdog. I have that feeling too, irrational as I technically, intellectually, know it is, I still have that nagging feeling something isn't right about it, that no matter how right it really is, I'll have missed something somewhere, look/feel like a jacka $$. or that, something isn't right about ME, so then, no matter how right what I did is, it still isn't right somehow, somewhere.....what you say about the constant sense of wrongness not based in reality rings with me. My H and I talked about that last night; only I used the word defective to try to describe the feeling and he's all like, you're just plain wrong, there's some false core belief in there giving you that idea, you're not defective.....well, sure I know it's not true, so why/what is the sense doing there and why won't it get the heck out? if it were based on logic, I could more likely defeat it by intellectually denying it, but it's not. so I have spent a considerable amount of time examining where it came from and why it's gotten so embedded in my brain....

And someone said something about fraud.....I know I feel like a fraud, in that people get the idea I'm real competent at something, but I see the mistakes behind the scenes.....or people think that my heart is really into something, but in my spirit, I know the truth, that it's not, that I don't altogether care about that certain thing, that I'm doing it because others expect it/think it's right and because I think it's right/expect it of myself yet don't have my heart in it.

I think I've got a pretty good snapshot of what is going on here actually. Well, as good as one can get off the internet.

I asked you specifically what the criteria would be for an answer to you question about how therapy works, and I don't think you responded.

Personally, I think you are asking the wrong question. Focusing on procedure rather than outcome.

I would be asking, both myself and my therapist (but maybe not yours), why I feel this way, not how this process is going to help, or what I can do to stop it.

If feeling this way makes no sense, and is not rational to you, then why are you feeling that way?

I did respond.

One of the main questions I am asking here is why does interacting with the therapist feel worse or intensify the already horribleness rather than leading to an easing up of horriblosity? Talking about feelings only makes it worse.

i'm sorry I must have missed your response.

I don't know why you feel that way, but perhaps something will surface soon that will help you find some peace.

Stopdog, I too thought my childhood was not that bad. But as I began to share it with others I realized just how "not normal" it was. I started to remember things that happened to me and then imagine it happening to another child at that very age. Things that I felt were no big deal or not that big of a deal, turned out to be more just by imagining how a child at that age would have felt at that moment....I never remember myself as a helpless child....so this helps to at least acknowledge there were feelings associated with the memories, even if I didn't "have" them at the time. It helped to see my girls growing up , made me realize just how bad it really was, I would have never wished any of it on anyone.

On another note, I think you should tell her you want to investigate where this feeling comes from...and if she says no, fire her...I mean you are the one in control correct? xT did that to me , she would shut me down, when I wanted to look into something deeper, that she felt was a done issue. My time, my dime....right?

I forgot I feel like a fraud too...don't tell anyone

I can't read all 60 some odd replies so if someone has already suggested this, pls pardon me.

there's a technique used in treating OCD (not sayin that you have that, just to let you know I didn't make it up!) perhaps you can float this by yr T.
in which you can write out, in GREAT detail, your worst case scenario - you think everything went grandly and people praised & petted you right ad left, and then you find it was all a facade etc - make it as graphically horrible as you fear it could be.
Then record it, or have T record it.
and play it for yourself - repeatedly - a LOT. Seriously - a whole lot.
in time, so I read, you will realize that the probabllities of this are not great, maybe even nil, and you will lose yr fear.
be warned though, the first 100 hearings are the hardest.
I hope you find something that works, even if not this. and pardon me but I think you've earned one of these

The therapist will not say no to investigation. It is just that so far answering her questions usually results in me just being extremely frustrated. Even if I agree it was not a good thing - so what? How does it make a difference. What do I do with that information?
I appreciate the suggestions but the problem for me is I know nothing bad is really going to happen so the sense of doom that follows me is without any basis- no one can get me, no one wants to, the worst thing that can realistically happen for most things is not going to kill or maim me. I have the ability to work for myself, I would survive most bad things with some adjustments. It would not be all happiness, but it would be okay and my life would look about like it does now. The worst thing that would unrealistically happen would put an end to all of this - so that is not even so bad if looked at in that way.
The focus of my problem is not that anything really bad is realistically going to happen -. And even if it were to somehow really happen, one figures out how to deal with it and goes on OR one has been made permanently absent and so one no longer cares. I am not sitting around worried about bad things happening - but I do have a feeling of extreme wrongedness.

Talking about this stuff to the therapist relieves nothing and in fact makes it feel much worse. I do not know what I am doing wrong. I do it the way the therapist and books and people on the internet say to do it, and it just feels worse than before I tried to explain. The more I try to explain - the more frustrated I become.
Thanks for letting me try here. I might tell the therapist I am just as bad at expressing myself clearly on the internet as I am in her office. But that would perhaps lead her to believe I don't think it is her fault for failing to properly explain how therapy is supposed to go and how it is I cannot make it work- and I would not want that.

Sorry to repeat but EMDR is not talking or explaining. You say things and you may go home after the session without feeling worse. You might feel better. It's not about interaction between you and the T. Did you ever read anything about it? Nothing is working for you so maybe you need a different approach. I promise I will shut up about EMDR now.

Stopdog, my understanding is you can't do therapy wrong... With that being said maybe you should try another? Perhaps a Doctor, like a Psy.D. or a male even. I went polar opposite from that last lady and I am so so very greatful, I thought why not... So far so good...just a thought. I'm sorry we are not understanding exactly what you feel. I've read everything... Is there any thing else you are willing to share? Sometimes I too have a sense of guilt/worry , anxiety to panic attack level if I allow my self to stew about it. My adult self knows I am being irrational, but the inner child can't help but wonder, and I am needing to find out why. So i understand the inability of rationality to over come feelings. I hope things get better. I won't hug you, even though I sure want to!

Stopdog,,, I can so relate to your wanting to understand how therapy is "supposed" to work. I wanted that too...it led to anxiety of "am I doing it right" and I would check in with a friend studying to be a therapist like you consult with the others... I have my own issues with therapy so I'm not responding as someone who has it all figured out but...

I think talking about feelings that we don't understand, don't want to have and frankly would like to just make "go away" is difficult... I think just acknowledging them is hard...admitting they exist... I don't expect to feel better just saying the words ...frankly for me I have always felt worse for a while.

Maybe part of the issue with your T. is that your mention getting frustrated by your T.'s questions... and your difficulty explaining it... but IMO you need to accept that figuring out how you "feel" is hard and putting it into words is hard... accept that your T might not "get it" the first time...

I personally love CONTROL.... so I want to pick a topic...neatly and concisely explain it... understand it... say okay now it makes sense..place it in a box.. and mail it off to neverland... Therapy doesn't work that way if it did... we wouldn't need it....

I hope I didn't frustrate or annoy you...since I didn't read every response... but maybe the answer isn't that you are doing it wrong but that your expectations are unrealistic and you need to have much more patience with yourself..

I just wanted to add that for a long time, I felt like I was just spinning my wheels in therapy. I thought I was just going as an escape from the chaos in my life - treating it like a little fantasy break (with my Ryan Gosling-esque T as the captain of my ship).

I hated and avoided talking about the sad state of my marriage. I compared it to running a marathon - you just have to get numb and get through it after a while. If you rehash every painful mile, you'll eventually dread running.

But a month ago, I had one of those stupid therapy breakthroughs. I hope the same thing happens for you.

stopdog--have you heard of the book "Trauma and the avoidant client?" It is based on attachment theory (one of those fiends!), BUT it is focused on treatment plans, a practical guide. Here is a description from the author:

But what can be done in treatment? Therapists know how rewarding it can be to have a client who is highly motivated; and by contrast, how very challenging it can be to work with someone who comes across as defensive and reluctant to engage in the therapeutic process.
It turns out that approaches that are highly “activating” tend to work a whole lot better. Clients who keep their painful attachment-related feelings at bay often use intellectualization as a defence. They avoid closeness, and can come across as living “in their heads” much of the time. Approaches that let them circle around painful issues –without addressing them in emotional experience– tend to fall flat. So, from the beginning of therapy, it is critical to help the individual make a personal and meaningful connection to the treatment process. Early interviewing should emphasize client motivation around change. And, middle and later phases of therapy should place the focus on emotional expression and the therapeutic relationship as a direct vehicle for change.
It has been interesting for me to see how people have reacted to the publication of my new book, Trauma and the Avoidant Client: Attachment-Based Strategies for Healing, where this treatment approach is laid out in detail. (by Robert T. Muller)

I think you better be careful about hinting to your t that the problems with therapy might not be her fault. that sounds risky.

I read parts of this thread. Another thing I remembered was you worry about being "mocked and humiliated" in a lot of situations, including therapy. Since therapists generally don't intend to do that, I think you're sensitive to mocking and humiliation. And/or too intelligent for your own good, inspiring others who are jealous to mock and humiliate you.

Velcro - thanks -I have read that book a few times this past year. I keep hoping at some point I will understand what the guy means. I don't even really understand what that blurb you posted is supposed to look like.

Learning -thanks - indeed that peril would be too perilous.
I do seriously doubt anyone is jealous of me, I cannot imagine any reason for anyone to be.
I can usually control what information I give to others to mock me about. Only that which mockery will not nick or pierce through. The therapist, wily creature, did an end run around me and drew blood. And then insisted it was my fault for not knowing she was kidding. "I thought we had reached a place where I could tease you like that. I guess I was wrong" is a quote. Unfortunate both in the level of being mistaken in the original exchange which lead to her above response after I protested and in word choice in the second sentence.
It was the second sentence that most sent me around the bend.

I hope Stopdog understood this, because it went completely over my head!