[SpiritRunner]

So, something I did today got me to thinking ... it was something, without sugarcoating it, you would call dishonest. But! I do not like to think of myself as a dishonest person ... I value honesty, truth. It's one of my basic core values (one I'd consider a universal sort of moral value) and something I consider necessary for being a person of integrity ....
So, the question is - if there's one sort of situation, or one aspect of your life, in which you do something dishonest, does make you as a whole dishonest? Could you still view yourself as a basically honest person, or a person who values honesty, but with a weakness in a certain area, a struggle? Am I an honest person who struggles with honesty in this certain aspect .... or a dishonest person troubled about not having, or truly living, a value I think I should.
Can you do something contrary to a value you purport to have/to believe in and still say you have that value, or truly value that value, in general?
Or have you really compromised your character as a whole, compromised your integrity, your authenticity, by not always being true to your values ...
Yep, the answer should be really clear to me (if I feel bothered this much, I should stop doing it!) .... but I want to see what thoughts, if any, there are on something like this. I'd say it was a great thing to discuss with T2, if I still felt free to call her, which I don't (not because she said or indicated I shouldn't, but because I just don't anymore).

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by SpiritRunner

Yep, the answer should be really clear to me (if I feel bothered this much, I should stop doing it!) .... but I want to see what thoughts, if any, there are on something like this

I think you're really answered your own question. If you are this bothered by what you did, it's something you should talk talk about and work towards changing.

Personally, I don't view honesty and dishonesty in completely black and white terms. I think there is a difference between "big things" like cheating on a partner, stealing, lying about finances, etc-- and "little white lies" like telling your friend "no, that doesn't make your *** look big" or "sorry, I can't help out with that bakesale, I have a dentist appointment." Personally, I don't do the former, and I won't choose to be in relationships with people who do the former either. I think-- especially with my partner, my close friends, my T-- it's important to be completely honest and transparent. Even wihen it's difficult and unflattering. In really close relationships-- like with my partner-- if she asked me her how her *** looked in an outfit, I'd probably tell her the truth, too! (Of course, I think her *** looks good in everything!) Anyway, my point being, I think honestly is the foundation of healthy relationships. You need to know that you can trust (and be trusted by) those closest to you. But, in those little pinches we find ourselves in-- like when an acquaintance is insecure and needs to hear a compliment-- or when we just need to find an "easy out" so we're not sacrificing our sanity to whip up 100 brownies overnight-- I don't think a little white lie will hurt. As long as those little white lies don't suddenly compound and turn into something bigger!

With respect to your situation, if you're bothered by doing something dishonest, it's probably because you are a usually honest person who feels bothered by doing something that goes against the standards of conduct that you set for yourself. At this point, what's done is done. However, if there is a way you could do something to "clean up" the situation after the fact, maybe that's worth pursuing? If not, then perhaps it's just a good learning tool for next time. Since you know how bad you feel about it this time, you will probably think twice before doing it again!

[stopdog]

In general, I tend to think that most things are relative. I am not certain any one act (aside from pushing a button or issuing an order resulting in mass genocide) makes one a completely dishonest or lacking in integrrity person. Was the act of dishonesty at someone else's expense, was it to deliberately deprive someone else of something, did anyone else suffer or lose something of value because of it, etc - would be the sorts of questions I would ask myself. If the answers were yes - then I would try to make reparation as best as possible and try to never repeat it. If nto, then I would look to see how things fit in with the rest of my philosophy.

[Snuffleupagus]

You know I really value you, SpiritRunner, but I recognize a tendency of my own in this post. It sounds like you'd rather get yourself tied in philosophical knots and escape to the land of the abstract than just address the behavior you're finding troubling. Like if you can only find the right formulation of words, what you're doing will be okay.

FWIW, I don't know how much value honesty has, in itself. It does make life simpler for the most part. I think honesty is incredibly valuable, but most of this value is borrowed from it's instrumentality. It generally helps me to have relationships of a higher quality which is something I do value "in itself."

[blur]

sr, maybe the problem is more that you are trying to label yourself one way or another? i'm not sure the label is really helpful. i also value honesty very, very highly but i do realize i'm human and i won't always be honest. i had an online friend once post something about realizing she's very intellectually honest but not so much when it comes to emotional honesty. boy, can i relate to that, but it is so not intentional when i do it.

it sounds like you are probably dealing with some perfectionism here and maybe trying to earn your worth. we will never be perfect but we don't have to be because we know the One who is. rest, spirit runner, rest.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Snuffle -

you said

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

FWIW, I don't know how much value honesty has, in itself.

I know someone who very proudly describes himself as "pathologically honest" ...
sounds good doesn't it? but in practice it translates as saying anything that comes to his mind, even if mean, nasty, belligerent, or unjust (and because of huge anger issues, it's often one of these), and there will never be any question of getting a word of apology, because he's such an honest guy (smooch up his own arm)

In no way do I discount the value of honesty; but in this case, I tried to tell him the idea is not to be pathologically honest any more than pathologically dishonest; the idea is not to be pathologically anything.
I bet you can guess where that particular bit of "truthfulness" got me. out in the cold!!

[SpiritRunner]

thanks, everyone, for the very helpful answers. you all raised good points.

scorpio, you're right. I really do already know the answer. But part of the deal is I don't find myself as willing as I ought to be to change this particular behavior ... and that in itself is irritating/distressing to me. I keep thinking, ok, if I really AM an honest person (that is, if I know what is right and what my values are, then I should be willing to be authentic/true in keeping to them) then why am I am resisting what would be the most honest course here - when I know I can damage myself emotionally by being false to my own values (never mind the potential spiritual judgment, though I think of that too!)? I think this relates to the self-sabotage thread - I suspect I am setting myself up, violating my own code of conduct and waiting for the emotional hammer from the superego to drop on me!

stopdog - those are good questions to consider. I don't technically think it's hurting anyone or causing anyone else to lose anything of value - unless you count me and my sense of self-respect, I might be in danger of robbing myself of that. In one sense, I justify myself here because I think of it as something that gets something for my kids - that they benefit. But I am aware it's a fairly flimsy justification, really. Part of me just wishes I didn't have to worry about it being wrong, or that others wouldn't consider it wrong, so I wouldn't have to feel guilty or dishonest! (you see, I am no angel .... )

blur - labeling myself and being perfectionistic in some ways are strong tendencies of mine, I know it. The thing about intellectual honesty vs emotional honesty ... boy, that is a GOOD one! That one makes me think ....

SAWE - you raise a good point too. Puts me in mind of the Pharisees that made Jesus so disgusted .... pathologically religious, all about legality and being perfect in obedience, but without love and honesty of spirit, judgment without mercy! (hope this does not violate anything here, I don't intend to get into a religious discussion or trigger anyone, just making a point) There is a path of moderation/balance that is good .... so that one does not become overly proud of their morality, which makes it almost NOT morality at all ... honesty that is cruel/angry/brutal is not honesty so much as it is unkindness.

Snuffy - what can I say. You've got me dead to rights. I just love philosophical knots and escaping into abstraction. I am a thinker so much more than I am a doer - except when it comes to exercise (which is my blessed relief/release FROM thinking so damn much). I complicate matters by philosophizing/analyzing where it would be better to simplify by simply doing, doing the work to change a behavior ..... analyzing why I am unwilling to change a certain spiritually/emotionally harmful behavior instead of just deciding to become willing and change it!

I am odd .... I know it.

[FooZe]

Originally Posted by SpiritRunner

So, the question is - if there's one sort of situation, or one aspect of your life, in which you do something dishonest, does make you as a whole dishonest? Could you still view yourself as a basically honest person, or a person who values honesty, but with a weakness in a certain area, a struggle? Am I an honest person who struggles with honesty in this certain aspect .... or a dishonest person troubled about not having, or truly living, a value I think I should.
Can you do something contrary to a value you purport to have/to believe in and still say you have that value, or truly value that value, in general?
Or have you really compromised your character as a whole, compromised your integrity, your authenticity, by not always being true to your values ...

[FooZe clambers onto lofty Olympian perch]

I think what it really hinges on, is how honest you are with yourself. For an extreme example: suppose you lied 24 hours a day (well maybe 16 -- gotta allow you some time for sleeping). If you didn't deny that you lied nor try to justify it, I'd consider you just an honest person who lied a lot.

Lots more paradoxes available where that one came from.

[FooZe rappels down from lofty Olympian perch
and goes on merry way]

[SoupDragon]

Aren't we all as honest as we can be at a certain time? If we are less than what we would like to be, it is the reasons for this that maybe are the most useful thing to explore, rather than the label honest vs dishonest.

[WikidPissah]

Originally Posted by SpiritRunner

So, the question is - if there's one sort of situation, or one aspect of your life, in which you do something dishonest, does make you as a whole dishonest?

A part of a human is never the whole. If you are dishonest about things (regardless of reason) then you are wholly human, not wholly dishonest.

[Perna]

We all lie at some time; there is not a single person who can say they are always honest.

I think traits and values are things we have tendencies and aspire to. I consider myself an educated woman, for example, but I do not have a PhD If you are trying to be honest, personally value honesty and exhibit it often so others see and concur that you are "honest"/trustworthy, I think that is all one can hope for?

[kiki86]

i haven't read through the other responses yet so probably this has already been said but i think this is classic black and white thinking. being dishonest about something doesn't make you a dishonest person. your whole identity as a person cannot be determined by any single transgression. i think of myself as having very strong sense of personal ethics but of course i have breached those from time to time. you're only human.