[stopdog]

Does anyone else experience the seeming attempts at empathic statements as adversarial or pointless?
I have been reading books on therapeutic communication and the exchanges between therapist and client they give as examples are quite interesting to me. I never would respond the way the sample client responds-I don't even know how the statement by the therapist would lead to the sample responses. Finally in a couple of the books, they have talked about how sometimes a client will find the empathic responses to be painful or adversarial. And I agreed. I do find them useless and adversarial. At best they are just stupid and at worst they are harmful. I do not feel like I am not worthy of kindness or anything like I am lesser or not deserving of something - it is a different response than that. It is that I do not experience it as kindness or connection or hearing me or whatever it seems they are going for.
I am just asking if anyone else has this response.

[pbutton]

I find it patronizing at times. It also makes me want to fight it because I don't want to be needy and fall into the trap of believing it.

I also do not feel unworthy of kindness. My problem is more an issue of not trusting other people & being grossed out by the idea of being needy.

So, I get the "useless" part but not the adversarial. Do you feel like they're trying to lull you into trusting them? Or is it something else?

[karebear1]

Stodog- can you give me an example of what you mean??

[pbutton]

Do you feel like they are implying you are weak and dependent upon their approval? Or is it more the "wily" factor like they're trying to con you?

[stopdog]

If I say x happened and they respond x must have hurt - My responses range from - "Well of course it hurt you idiot - why would you bother saying such an obvious and pointless thing" to "so what does it matter even if it did?" - What am I supposed to do with that statement - how does the therapist saying it help me?
It is different from fearing weakness (which I probably do as I am not weak nor do I wish to become so) and I do not think I am dependent upon their approval - what possible reason would I have for depending upon their approval - they are not in my real life and my decisions do not impact them.
I wish I could figure out how to explain it better. It was good to me to find acknowledgement of it in these books. It was unfortunate that it has thus far been almost universally written as "in some rare circumstances, a client will experience the therapist's empathy as a source of distress or aversive"
I did not realize my response was really rare or uncommon.

[stopdog]

Perhaps describing it as aversive rather than adversarial will help with understanding what I mean. I take aversive and go to adversarial with it. But I suppose that is not the only natural progression.

I am just wondering if others find empathy to be aversive rather than feeling heard or whatever.

[pbutton]

Aversive might apply to me. He told me we need to have intimacy and I purposely made a face like he'd said I'd have to drink water from the toilet. I threw the paper after being called a success story. I'm sure I could come up with a few more examples.

I think for me it is more about power though - he offers some mushy froo-froo emotional thing to me & I feel better when I reject it.

[unaluna]

I empathize with you on this, stopdog cos like for the first few years, I would report back to T that I cleaned my kitchen, and he would sweetly say, "Doesn't that feel good now?" and I would practically jump out of my seat, also mad that he didn't remember it from the last time I cleaned my kitchen - 2 months previous - that it DOESN'T feel good to me, it's scary, it's tense, it feels like failure waiting to happen, and just entering the kitchen to begin with is horrible. NO IT DOESN'T FEEL GOOD YOU IDIOT!!! (addressed to T)

hmm, and here I thought I was over it, but I just got coffee and I have fruit flies again, so maybe not.

so I think the book quote above is stupid, REALLY stupid. obviously if somebody reacts like this, you've struck a nerve. like a dentist. they should keep probing. dig out the rotten stuff. replace it with something shiny white and impervious

My initial response to my T's empathy in the early stages of therapy was anger, and a "what do you WANT from me?" kind of thing. Kindness came at such a cost to us growing up, stopdog, that it's no wonder you experience it as adversarial. With time, and repeated of occasions of him being kind and empathetic with no penalty or cost to me, I grew to trust that he did not have some ulterior motive and was legitimately trying to help me identify and articulate my feelings and heal.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by hankster

I empathize with you on this, stopdog cos like for the first few years, I would report back to T that I cleaned my kitchen, and he would sweetly say, "Doesn't that feel good now?" and I would practically jump out of my seat, also mad that he didn't remember it from the last time I cleaned my kitchen - 2 months previous - that it DOESN'T feel good to me, it's scary, it's tense, it feels like failure waiting to happen, and just entering the kitchen to begin with is horrible. NO IT DOESN'T FEEL GOOD YOU IDIOT!!! (addressed to T)

hmm, and here I thought I was over it, but I just got coffee and I have fruit flies again, so maybe not.

so I think the book quote above is stupid, REALLY stupid. obviously if somebody reacts like this, you've struck a nerve. like a dentist. they should keep probing. dig out the rotten stuff. replace it with something shiny white and impervious

I found the books that at least acknowledge it to be useful to me - I don't find it stupid at all. In your example, my response would be "of course it was good - why do I need you to say so?" It is not the content of what is being talked about but the attempt at empathy itself in general that I find aversive.

[kiki86]

sometimes when i describe something, T will say; that must be an awful feeling to carry around with you.

my automatic response is always to say "nah it's fine". even when it's not. i think i don't want anyone to think i feel sorry for myself or something

[stopdog]

Also, at times - when it does not baffle or enrage me - it is in some ways the attempt at empathy is actually painful in a way.
It was nice to see a couple of the books teaching therapists about communication to at least acknowledge it. Because all the other examples of how clients are supposed to respond (or have responded) really really make no sense to me at all.

[mandehble]

I can really identify with this. It not only seems useless to me but more than a little awkward - like the kind of useless small talk that you don't know how to respond to without sounding equally vapid. It kind of makes me feel like we're wasting time acting out some sort of farce...like it's just 'going through the motions'. To be fair, I feel this way about many of my everyday interactions with people and I believe I also have what is formally referred to as a dismissive avoidant attachment style...
People are weird.

You're asking if anyone else has this response? Count me among those who don't. But if it makes you happy, go for it. We're all different.

[pbutton]

Originally Posted by mandehble

I believe I also have what is formally referred to as a dismissive avoidant attachment style...

We shall build an army of dismissive avoidants. No one need fear for their safety, as none of us can be bothered to deal with other people or their feeeeeeeeeeelings. Just leave us alone and no one gets hurt.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by TheBunnyWithin

You're asking if anyone else has this response? Count me among those who don't. But if it makes you happy, go for it. We're all different.

It does not make me happy or unhappy. It just is. There is no "going for it" as far as I can see. It did help me feel better about how baffled I am at some of what I read here, and with how I experience the therapy interaction itself. I was surprised to see it labelled as uncommon.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by pbutton

We shall build an army of dismissive avoidants. No one need fear for their safety, as none of us can be bothered to deal with other people or their feeeeeeeeeeelings. Just leave us alone and no one gets hurt.

This reminds of something I read about INTPs forming a group - no one would ever follow through to set a time or meeting place etc. Very funny.

[kiki86]

feeeeeeeeeeelings

ha ha that's always how i refer to feeling in therapy. i'm trying to be more accepting of feeeeeelings. i have eliminated the eye roll that goes with it.

pbutton, I say it that exact same way, even when I'm talking to my T. 'I want to talk about how my friends acted this weekend, and about my feeeeeeeeeelings about it." And then I roll my eyes. I am still working on eliminating the eye roll. Congrats on being able to eliminate it, kiki.

Originally Posted by stopdog

This reminds of something I read about INTPs forming a group - no one would ever follow through to set a time or meeting place etc. Very funny.

EXACTLY! If we're all busy avoiding each other, how can we ever meet?

Do I still get to call myself dismissive avoidant when I've actually gotten attached to my therapist, and am really bonded and close to my children? I promise, I still push my husband away and avoid getting too close to other women.

[mandehble]

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

Do I still get to call myself dismissive avoidant when I've actually gotten attached to my therapist, and am really bonded and close to my children?

Sure you can. I'm attached to a lot of people...ok, I'm attached to SEVERAL people...I'm attached to a few select people...but it basically took me forever and an arm and a leg to get to that point. I'm trying to build a new relationship with an online person right now and It's crazy stressful. I've already run away from him twice I'm terrible.

[karebear1]

I'm still looking up the big words and thinking..... forever thinking...... but I'll come back when I have something. Thanks for the example!

[sconnie892]

If I am in a bad mood going into therapy, I will sometimes have the "Well no ****" response if t expresses empathy. At the beginning I remember thinking her responses and facial expressions to my talking about pain were a bit exaggerated.

But when I am not in such a bad mood, I realize that t is probably just checking that she understands what I am feeling. "That must have been very difficult" is a check to see if that is what I really meant and t is giving me the opportunity to confirm and/or explore that feeling. She's opening the door to see if I will walk through it or not.

But I get the adverse response to the empathy and like others have said it's not because I don't feel worthy of care.

[stopdog]

Mkac- i think you may be on dismissive avoidant probation.

I think the empathy as aversive happens more to the dismissive avoidant. I am not sure that it is a bad thing or something to fix, just not usual.

[doubtful]

I often hear my T's empathy as aversive. My first thought to "that must be hard, confusing, disappointing, etc" is "why are you making fun of me?" My second thought is, "well, that was a real conversation stopper!" Over the years, though, I've come to appreciate the invitation to actually stop and think about how I'm feeling about whatever I'm saying. Not always. But pretty often.

I think that my mother defined how I should feel all of the time--as an extension of her. So, I'm pretty defended any time I feel like someone is telling me how I should or would feel about something. I don't believe that's what T is doing, but some childhood defenses are activated nonetheless.