T embarrassed me!

I agree that I crave the attention and don't know how to get it in an acceptable way. I need to talk to my T about this thread. I don't want to turn people away. It hurts.

CSA: I've never called it that before because my Ts weren't sure it was. Maybe calling it that is what I need to do. It sure makes me feel weird right now.

Oh please don't implant into rainbow's thinking that she experienced CSA. She already uses every possible excuse to explain her behavior. Don't give her another one.

CSA is a seriously damaging life-changing event. Rainbow's "other successful life" that she talks about having most likely would not have occurred if there was CSA, and multiple events at that.
Most women who have experienced CSA have trouble having a life, sex, family, friend relationships, jobs, self-care, etc. Just look at these forums.

Most survivors don't throw themselves at a T... most CSA survivors take months, years to trust a T.
Most survivors don't want to be touched intimately on the hand or the knees or a hug or anywhere by a T, until they have had years of therapy.
Most survivors have horrible self-care, they self-harm, have drug and food addictions, eating disorders, refuse to goto the dentist or the doctor, experience self-hate and intense shame.
Many are petrified of sex or have sex with everyone unless they have had lots of therapy.
Most have flashbacks, are hypervigilent, and avoid things that remind them of the trauma.

NOT all borderlines experienced abuse.
Read the literature. They may have been high-needs children and the mother could not respond quick enough. Or a child could have been sickly and mother could not provide attention 100% of the time, so baby perceives abandonment.

This is supported by PC -- regarding childhood sexual experimentation

http://askdrrobert.dr-robert.com/chi...sexuality.html
.

I can accept what you're saying to me, lonely. I can feel your understanding and compassion, and that makes me able to take it in. I admit I'm addicted to the good feelings I get on the forum, and feel very bad when I don't get them. This is a pattern in therapy and in RL. T and I are working with my disappointment and extreme change of mood when that happens. DBT skills are about these things too. I see it all coming together as a huge need for unconditional love and attention. I don't know what's best for me. I wish I could have the middle ground with this forum and with T. I want that so badly. I want to be able to tolerate what I get, not what I want. I want to work it out and not have these fits when I don't get what I want. I want not to want what I want, if that makes sense.

You are right as usual, Chris. My T is trying in a variety of ways to build up my sense of Self. I am trying too. She encouraged me to take yoga and to get involved with art/drawing again. She has always steered me toward self-validation and being independent, but she wants me to know she supports me and cares about me, and believes in me. My DBT T says I still need therapy right now when I asked about being able to quit (after DBT is over, I mean). I know I'm doing the same thing here. Patterns have a way of showing up all over, don't they? I try to validate myself but the outside critism creeps in and affects me. I'm a failure. I'm not good enough. I messed up. Those words instead of "I'm good. I'm successful at so and so".

I didn't make that up. People told me they were triggered by my threads but you're right. It doesn't/shouldn't invalidate what they are trying to tell me. Thank you.

this literally makes no sense. how can one be ignoring your posts if you pressed "hug" or "thanks"? i think this may be a little harsh.
I agree with this, Rainbow. I didn't want to participate in this thread, because i hate being involved in messy things like this. Personally, I don't see why your posting/frequency should upset anyone so much. I do think some have been a little harsher than needed, but there are TONS of posts in here that are trying to help. I do think that you have improved. You accept differing viewpoints easier than 6 mos ago. I want to see you do well, but I do hope that this focus on your T doesn't go on infinitely. I know you say that you talk about other issues in therapy (i believe it), but obviously the most important is your intense needs for your T. If that wasn't true, you'd be posting about other things that happened in therapy.

a suggestion rainbow. if you feel hurt by someone's reply to your thread, how about be curious about it? if something specific they said hurt your feelings, maybe ask them to explain? or write what you THOUGHT you read. by being curious, it may lessen the intensity of the reaction.

I used the word this time... but I could as well use "off putting". I don't believe it's measure of someone's health if they aren't put off and feel icky about guilt-tripping.

(which is what I mean by "at your age". It's not about "needing" something, it's about how you ask for it. Others gave example. "I need hug now" is appropriate (evenmore with friends). "why you don't hug me, do you hate me?" is not. ANd I think as we get older the less we care about the mundane stuff. THe hugs here are just like likes on facebook. Don't tell them much, tbh).

some of us have issues from past, that make us more sensitive to emotional manipulation, but I think even the most stable and "healthy" person in the world would feel bit iffy about that after a while.

Lots of misinformation in your post. Lots of myth and stereotyping. I realize you used the word "most", but your implication is that Rainbow has to fall into that "most" or it couldn't be at all.

I am a survivor of CSA, multiple rapes and abusers. I have had a pretty successful life: long-term marriage, same career now for 27 years, mother of 3 great kids, and successful at all of the above. I was able to trust people, including therapists, rather easily; it didn't take me years much less months. I have no history of SI, drug abuse, or alcoholism. I have had a generally healthy sex life and while I don't seek out physical contact from my T, I'm not adverse to it either. I do have a history of PTSD, including flashbacks but have managed to somehow keep it separate from my personal relationships; that was simply how I coped with it unfortunately exhibiting it more in the form of severe depression, etc.

Not all CSA survivors fit in your neat, little package. Whether or not what happened to Rainbow is "technically" sexual abuse or not, I have no idea. I don't know enough of that history to pass that judgement, nor do you. What does seem apparent is that her brother was certainly inappropriate with her in various ways that have had a lasting effect on her. Don't invalidate her life experience because in your mind she doesn't fit into your definition. The label really doesn't matter; the experience and what we take out of it does.

If calling what happened to rainbow as a kid "CSA" helps her to become a healthier person, then it's unproductive to challenge her on it and in such an accusatory way. The label takes nothing away from anyone else, regardless of her motives.

It doesn't take much effort to briefly skim through a post then post a hug at the end. So yes can basically not bother reading a post but just to make the OP happy post a hug. Not saying everyone does it but the hugs button really doesn't mean anything because you don't know if someone is doing that.

I have to say, empty, that I took you off "ignore" to read what you posted, and I'm glad that I did. This time you're helping me and I want to thank you for it. I read the link and my dilemma is this: my brother is exactly 5 years older, hence the questionable calling it "abuse" or sexual experimentation since it says "more than 5 years". Knowing my brother, it was not meant as abuse, but YES, it affected me anyway. He crossed boundaries which may be why I don't understand them, T told me. He threw matches at me, again, was not trying to abuse me but of course that affected me so I became afraid of fire. My b. has his own issues, which doesn't excuse him, but makes me understand. I do think he was abusive to spy on me in the bathroom.

In any case, reading the article made me doubt that what he did was CSA. Still, it was hurtful and had long-lasting effects on me. I'm glad you posted to me here, because my gut tells me you're right this time.

This explains the way I feel, much better than I could ever manage to do.

I will talk to my T and DBT leader about how to change my behavior. I am not conscious that I am using and manipulating others. To me, it seems like a desperate need but it comes across as manipulative. My former T told me that too, that I'm manipulating her, but she never explained it so I could understand. I am going to think, not ruminate, on how I am using people and being manipulative. I was crying out for help but I said "no one likes me". That is manipulative I assume. I don't see it too clearly yet. Maybe I'm in denial or stupid, or too old. I remember former T saying that it would be better to say I called because I wanted to connect with her instead of something else. I'm not direct.

I think I'd better go eat breakfast. It's lunchtime.

okay, first, something direct. I often post because I feel left out, and I want to connect with people here. I start threads so I can feel connected because I can't connect with my T in between sessions. Is that bad?

Hey, empty space, I do not need a lecture about CSA. I have lived through it and I have healed from it and I have read the literature and I work with people who are survivors and I have lectured and provided trainings about it. I don't need to flaunt my lived and professional experience with CSA here but I have no doubt that I know and understand far more than you do. Chris has already pointed out many flaws in your thinking and I don't feel the need to go further than that.

I'm not the expert on anyone's experience here on this board but what I was attending to was Rainbow's feelings about shame around sexual expression and still do think they sound strikingly similar to the way that I have felt and that many survivors have articulated.

Wow (((((( rainbow8 )))))) I think you've handled this thread really well. I think I would rather be fed to the lions than have the 'support' that you have got on here! Lots for you to discuss in therapy, yep!

I don't think it's necessarily bad, but I do think there's something to be said for working out your therapy internally rather than externally, under the influence of other's opinions and judgments. There's a reason therapists keep their doors closed. Some issues are good conversation material. Others, not so much.

Also, I think Anne made a good point. All of us are in pain here. All of us are dealing with little therapy dramas (for the first time, I am counting myself in this number). Sometimes it helps break up the monotony of self-pity to explore someone's drama for awhile. But ultimately, we are going to care more about our pain than someone else's. We all should be grateful if we get a single view, let alone a reply. I think people felt like you were demanding more than you are entitled to and it set them off.

Quote Rainbow:I can accept what you're saying to me, lonely. I can feel your understanding and compassion, and that makes me able to take it in. I admit I'm addicted to the good feelings I get on the forum, and feel very bad when I don't get them. This is a pattern in therapy and in RL. T and I are working with my disappointment and extreme change of mood when that happens. DBT skills are about these things too. I see it all coming together as a huge need for unconditional love and attention. I don't know what's best for me. I wish I could have the middle ground with this forum and with T. I want that so badly. I want to be able to tolerate what I get, not what I want. I want to work it out and not have these fits when I don't get what I want. I want not to want what I want, if that makes sense.

That was a great response ( not because you returned into me ) but because you are sort of being open about how you use this forum and T.

Personally I would stir away of any discussions about CSA in this thread. Rainbow you are so easy to influence. It´s part of your personality I think and your eagerness to be "part of something". Please discuss that topic with pro´s ( Who doesn´t think so??) before we all make you out to be a real victim.It´s easy because many of us have been severly abused and obviously have a low tolerence for" even semi normal" sibling behaviour.
I find it quite funny that everyone praises the fact that you entered DBT. Your ex-T didn´t think it would help ( BUT that you would enjoy the excercises) your current T sort of agreed right, it´s also because the forum adviced it.
I think when it comes down to certain topics you really have to rely on proffessionals early on. I am not what so ever invalidating your experience with your brother! I just think is good to have this conversation AGAIN with a T before we start responding to you as a survivour of CSA. It´s not my intention to be blunt. I can just predict loads of threads on this coming ....because .. well what I have highlighted above. Sorry. I do however think your response was very honest. Although I find your behaviour " off putting" most of the time I am actually trying to protect you..AND people who may be a bit triggered too.

I have no idea whether this will work, but to give you an idea of what it feels like to read your demands for attention, here is what I might say, taking on your style, about the post I wrote here and another one on the couch:

Rainbow, can't you see I'm in pain?? I'm in grief about my T and I'm losing a close relative. Why did you thank me and not hug me? Why don't you like me? I hate you .

Does it feel fair that I use the word "hate" when you probably had perfectly good reasons not to see my couch post, and not to give me a "hug" on my response here? Does it feel fair that I accuse you of not liking me because you didn't hit the "hug" button, probably because it just didn't occur to you that that was what I wanted? It's not, by the way, I don't post on others' threads for hugs. But would you feel good about going back to hit "Hugs" now, now that I've told you that I'm going to hate you and say you dislike me until you do? In other words, I'd be purposely trying to make you feel bad in order to get what I want. That's manipulative. It's manipulative because I didn't need to make you feel bad. I could have PM'ed you and asked for a hug. I could have simply started my own thread and told people I wanted hugs. Instead, I'd have chosen to say things that I KNOW aren't true -- that I hate you, that you must hate me -- in order to get the attention I crave. I'm not sure why you think that is fair to other people.

Have I done the same before in my own life? Yes. But I am not going to sit here and defend my behavior. I was wrong, I was acting out, and I try not to do it because it's not fair to other people and is generally counterproductive.

You remind me a lot of a friend I used to have. She had basically no sense of self, and collects some substitute for a self from the others around her. When she was close to one girl in our group of friends, she started dressing like her (think mashup of a Gap and JCrew catalog). When that friend moved, she started dressing like me (think mashup of an H&M and Urban Outfitters catalog).

And then when she got a boyfriend, everything pretty much fell apart. They had been going out for maybe two days, when I came to our lunch room (we worked together) to find her slowly eating a sandwich, looking miserable with every bite. I asked her what was wrong. "BF likes mustard. So I'm trying to like it too." She hates mustard. That was the extent to which she needed to be enmeshed with someone in order to feel like somebody.

She started doing everything with him and for him. Her parties were scheduled around him and his friends, and not her friends (which meant that a lot of the time, none of us could go). When we started raising the issue of our waning friendships, she started trying to turn us against each other. She'd tell me, "Sally, I'm so glad I have you to talk to. Lucy and Patty don't understand at all and they're so mean to me." Then I'd be having coffee with Lucy the next day and tell her what our friend said, and she'd say, "Yeah, she said the same thing to me last night. 'Oh Lucy, I'm so glad I can talk to you. Sally and Patty are so mean to me.'" Whenever you start pitting people against each other on PC, this incident is what I think of. "So-and-so is being nice, why does everyone else have to be so mean?"

Beyond this sort of subtle dishonesty, she started fibbing more blatantly. She would even admit to it. And then, whenever I called her on possibly being dishonest at another time, she would say, "It hurts that you don't believe me." As if I was not allowed the normal human reaction of disbelief of someone who frequently lies to me, because it hurts her. As if I was responsible for the hurt she incurred by being dishonest. As if it did not hurt ME to suddenly not be able to trust someone I used to really, really care about -- or that even if it did hurt me, that mattered less than the fact that it hurt her.

Now, I rarely engage with her. Her behavior may seem acceptable to you, but I can tell you it caused utter chaos among our group of friends. And one by one, we all stopped keeping in touch with her. It was too tiring to be accused of being hurtful every time we did something she didn't like. It was too tiring to have her try to pit us against each other. It was just depressing to see her desire to enmesh herself with a boyfriend who, as it turns out, isn't actually that into her, and refused to move in with her and now lives in a separate city. It was frustrating to ask her to be honest with herself about anything -- the fibbing, the actual status of her relationships -- and get either excuses or rage, seemingly because any questioning of her behavior was an attack on the castle of cards she set up every time she needed to figure out who she was. I kind of think that she lashed out so much whenever she was told she was doing something "wrong" because she was terrified to look within herself. It was easier to blame all of us. It was easier to tell us we didn't understand her. It was easier for her to convince herself that she was effectively convincing all of us of who she was, when often we could actually see right through her.

Which makes me wonder about your embarrassment and anger at your T. I'd be embarrassed too, and it was always embarrassing to talk about my sexual feelings for exT. But if he ever brought it up when it wasn't happening, my response was, "I do feel that way sometimes, but I don't feel that way now." I wasn't angry at him.

I wonder if her seeing something you expected you had kept behind the face that you present to her was something like a boundary crossing for you. That she could look inward and see something you weren't ready to show her might have felt invasive. Because you certainly do have sexual feelings for your T; you even mentioned thinking about her when you use your vibrator. You might not have been feeling them right then, but they are there. Anyway, anger was the typical reaction from my friend when we perceived something she hadn't wanted to show us (or herself, sometimes). So that's what it makes me think of now.

I suffered through multiple CSA events- so I can't have a successful life? CSA can have serious effects on ppl but we can heal from it (not sure why I need to write that- to convince you or myself?)

Read the rest- thanks Chris for already pointing this out and thus giving me some hope.

I have learned (so slowly!) that it's much easier to get my needs met if I'm just honest about what I need. So, I've learned that if I need to connect with T, I will call or e-mail and say "I just need to connect". If I wish my boys would unload the dishwasher, I don't say "OMG, I am ALWAYS the person who unloads the dishwasher, no one loves me", I say "hey! could you please unload the dishwasher?". If I miss my friends and want attention, I literally call or e-mail and say "Hi! I miss you! I need some attention" instead of "don't you love me? why haven't you called?"

The more honest I am about what I need, the more likely it is that I will get my needs met. I used to be a lot more manipulative, and I think it's because it was hard for me to recognize that I had needs, having needs didn't feel safe, and if I need notice a need it was too terrifying to admit it to myself or others. It seems like you are really aware of what you need....so maybe the next step is to learn how to just ask for it and know it's okay to do that. If I wrote a post and really needed replies, I would say "I really need some replies. I'm struggling" or something along those lines.

It's still hard for me to ask directly for certain things, especially from my H, and it's an ongoing learning process for me...but it's so worth it.

Rain I do hope you return to read your own thread or even older threads. Sally Brown just wrote you something really clever.

I don´t see the need to write: I need to get breakfast/ lunch now with a smiley. You don´t really care do you? You got a whole lot of responses and can keep up your pattern, needing to discuss this with your T. That way we are heplfull. We do give you an excuse constantly to be in T.

If I were critised in a 100 page thread I don´t think I would be all that happy. = need to get lunch " People I will get back to you". It´s really disturbing in a way.

Would you be happier if rainbow wrote: You made me miserable I'm not going to eat for a week? What's wrong with having a lunch?

I'm not sure I understand your point. I feel terribly depressed, and I was weak because it was almost 1 pm and I hadn't eaten yet. It wasn't meant to be manipulative or anything. it was MY decision to answer the posts individually. I guess it was "comic relief". I write spontaneously; it's my style. Are you being "honest" above or are you doing what Sally did, and wanting to know how it affects me? I'm not happy at all about this thread but I did get some helpful responses, not all criticisms at all. I don't need this forum to keep me in therapy. I don't understand what you're getting at in your post.

I'm not blaming anyone but myself for being online all morning and not eating. Please give me a break or are you trying to show me by example how annoying I am? If the latter, I can see it.

Thanks, nightsky, For your other post too. I think I forgot to respond; it's been a long morning but I always appreciate your viewpoint. I understand being direct but on here it may be taken as my being selfish. Like saying "hey, guys; Please like me." Not everyone likes me so I'd better just accept that. It makes me vulnerable to ask for something. What if I don't get it, and I get "what makes YOU think you're so important anyway?" It's hard to risk for fear of rejection.