[desirae]

I'm now in the middle of a very interesting book called, Counseling with Choice Theory, by William Glasser M.D. It's based on the New Reality Therapy.

So far I've been very intrigued, it discusses how disorders such as depression, bi polar, and obsessive compulsive disorders, and the symptoms they all have, have been chosen by the mentally ill. Doctor Glasser is saying that there is no such existence as mental illness (besides autism, epilepsy, and others in that area). He also claims that symptoms such as compulsively washing hands, panic attacks, and serious lows are way of suppressing pain and dealing with pain that the patient has chosen to do. He also claims that if the patient is willing to make the choice to stop and change their behavior, it could be easily overcomed. Doc also claims that there is no such illnesses that has completely taken over, and that the patient has absolulty no control over.

I'm not saying I actually agree by reading this book and posting some of the information I've received from this book, I just find it very interesting.

I want to know how all of you feel about the Choice Theory, and what it is you do believe about mental illness and all that applies to mental illness? Please say what you want, I'm very interested.

[Kalamity]

I hate when people, such as this author, seem to imply that I have chosen to live in misery.

This puts me too much in an emotional mind to appropriately articulate how these ideas can do more harm than good.

[Maven]

I agree with Kalamity. I didn't even know what obsessive compulsive disorder and panic disorder were before I started having symptoms. And I don't choose to have a panic attack. You can't see what's happening on the inside when a person has a panic attack, but there is a physical occurrence going on, just like when a person has a seizure or even just a muscle spasm. I don't mean there isn't a cause--I'm sure there is--but I don't choose for it to happen or fake it. I'm terrified of panic attacks, and will do just about anything to prevent one. I'm terrified of terror, which is what a panic attack is.

I can resist washing my hands, counting or doing whatever my OCD wants me to do, but I can't make the thoughts stop. I've tried. So, as for Dr. Glasser's saying that these illnesses can easily be overcome, I don't buy it.

How come, even in these days where we're finding out mental illness has physical causes, there still are a lot of people who don't believe they exist?

[Raynaadi]

Might want to put a trigger warning on this thread.

[jennie]

Bravo to Dr. Glasser! I'm reading his book, "Warning: Psychiatry Can Be Hazardous to Your Mental Health."

I can't say I agree 100% with the man but you are right, desirae, his work is interesting.

I do think *some* mental illnesses run their course as a self fulfilling prophecy. I also think *some* mental health meds "work" only because of placebo effect and if so, is not enough of a reason to prescribe that particular med. (I think these are similar issues Dr. Glasser views . . . I'm not sure, I'm still reading his writings.)

desirae, I'd like to hear more about what you find interesting about the book.

[jennie]

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desirae said:
Doc also claims that there is no such illnesses that has completely taken over, and that the patient has absolulty no control over.

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Now that above quote is idealistic or delusional. Brain imaging tools disprove that statement, Dr. Glasser!

[radio_flyer]

Very interesting........ My panic attacks didn't start until mid way thru my marriage.. They were mild at first, but worse by the time we separated...I can't say I've chosen the symptoms, but I can say the panic attacks could be the result of pent up feelings..... Actually an overload of pent up feelings over many years and bad experiences caught up with me, and I think that is why I crashed and scattered...It was awful.............I don't think i chose to hold the feelings. I think I may have "learned to" hold them in.. or "never learned" how to express bad feellings..

There is one feeling/experience that happens to me i haven't been able to put words to it.. The earliest I can remember it happening was high school... It has happened through out my life at different times... I didn't choose that feeling...Heck I can't even explain it let alone choose it. and I have no control over it.....

The Choice Theory....... Very interesting......

[BooRadley]

If it were so that mental illness is a "choice" then what accounts for the differences seen in the brains by means of live PET scans? What accounts for the efficacy of medications, and other tangible treatments?

Boo Radley

[jennie]

I think I read Dr. Glasser views all mental illnesses as a dissatisfaction with life, that all are the same as or a varying degree of depression. I wonder if he makes the jump in thinking from "happiness is a choice" to creating "Choice Therapy" as the panacea for all mental illnesses. If so, that's a huge jump.

[Maven]

Did he write Happiness is a Choice? I admit I haven't read his works, and my judgements are based only on the statements I've seen, keeping in mind I may not be getting the full understanding. I do not believe happiness is a choice, if he means it directly. I can't look at my life the way I look at it and be happy. However, if he means indirectly, meaning, you can choose the way you look at things, then, yes, I'd agree. I can't just tell myself, "Be happy," and POOF! I'm happy, but I can see things in a different way (sometimes somebody has to show you a different way first, because we can't always see it on our own), and that way of looking at things may make me happy.

And, of course, the choices you make in life can lead to happiness.

[Monty_girl]

This is an interesting view point. I could see a mental illness being a reaction of the subconscious mind dealing with current situations.

I think your brain changes when you have a mental illness and it needs treatment to become better. I think maybe his theory could work if a person maybe has mild systems of OCD, panic attacks or situational depression ( depression caused by current events). But for other illnesses like Bi Polar, clinical depression and other mental illnesses that seriously effects a persons brain. I feel they don't have much control over their illness unless they have professional help with maybe medications.

Think his theory could only work for a small group of people. But interesting topic.

Lisa

[jennie]

source Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice_theory

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The Ten Axioms of Choice Theory

1. The only person whose behavior we can control is our own.

2. All we can give another person is information.

3. All long-lasting psychological problems are relationship problems.

4. The problem relationship is always part of our present life.

5. What happened in the past has everything to do with what we are today, but we can only satisfy our basic needs right now and plan to continue satisfying them in the future.

6. We can only satisfy our needs by satisfying the pictures in our Quality World.

7. All we do is behave.

8. All behavior is Total Behavior and is made up of four components: acting, thinking, feeling and physiology

9. All Total Behavior is chosen, but we only have direct control over the acting and thinking components. We can only control our feeling and physiology indirectly through how we choose to act and think.

10. All Total Behavior is designated by verbs and named by the part that is the most recognizable.

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[jennie]

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Maven said:
I do not believe happiness is a choice, if he means it directly. I can't look at my life the way I look at it and be happy. However, if he means indirectly, meaning, you can choose the way you look at things, then, yes, I'd agree.

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Good insight, Maven! Read axiom 9, posted above. I think you understand what Dr. Glasser is trying to do with Choice Therapy. You just wrote a synopsis of it.

[radio_flyer]

I just did a search on Glasser.... He has written several books...and what I read caught my attention... I want to read more... So I will try to buy used books or see if they are in the library..... sounds like a lot of positive stuff...

[(JD)]

I had to read this guy's stuff way back in the late 70s and I didn't like him them and felt he was off the mark... and impo he is even farther off the mark.

I always wondered if he felt inferior himself, and therefore kept trying to avoid labeling himself with a disorder and declare that if he just thinks good he will be good. IDK what his problem is.

Now, with that said... I think we DO have a choice in how much power we give our disorders... whether we fight it when we can or just go along being a puppet for it. Still, there are those days where we feel powerless.

[(JD)]

you KNOW there's a problem when you read such words as ALL ALWAYS NEVER JUST ...

and imnoho giving too much creedence to the past is part of what makes us miserable...it's learning how to unload the past... being able to break free from it ... but IMO we are much more than what the past made us.

[wisewoman]

Happiness is a choice is written by this guy who started out writing about his kid with autism. I want to say his name is Barry Kaufman, nick name Bear and they have an institute for people who can afford it in Mass. I do not believe this is related to the above.

Secondly, my daughter showed OCD at 7, I am sure she chose that. She must have read up on it on the side.

[JustBen]

If you're interested in Reality Therapy/Choice Theory, I'd recommend books by Robert Wubbolding. Glasser is the innovator, of course, but he's also the "evangelist" and he tends to err on the side of generalizations and oversimplification for the sake of reaching the biggest possible audience. Wubbolding, on the other hand, really puts the arguments across in the best possible way (in my opinion).

Glasser tries to have it both ways sometimes, and his arguments can get sloppy. For example, he often says something along the lines of, "There's no such thing as mental illness", but then, if something is discovered to be the result of a phsyical problem, he says that it wasn't really a mental illness to begin with, but a physical illness with mental symptoms.

When it comes to figuring out why these things happen, though, it's all pretty complicated. Just because something shows up in a brain scan or can be treated with medications does not mean that it was caused by some kind of physical problem to begin with. Likewise, just becase something can't be measured or treated in those ways does not mean that it doesn't have some kind of physical cause.

I think that when Glasser says there's no such thing as mental illness, what he's trying to get across is that the nice medical-model idea that's been promoted by psychiatrists (i.e. the idea that mental illnesses are really medical illnesses with clearly identifiable physical causes) is false. That's true as far as it goes, but the way he puts it often leaves people with the impression that they're somehow choosing to be miserable and screwing up their lives on purpose.

[desirae]

I agree that his theory, and explanation of his theory, seems as though they were beliefs yanked right out of his head. I can't imagine a schizophrenic person hullicinating because they choose that behavior to suppress other pains in their lives.

I also agree that he seems so general, mental illness is faaar from general....there is so much more to mental illness then making a choice to have that behavior.

He also says that all mental illness is caused from a relationship gone bad. I highly doubt all of us have some sort of mental illness because of a relationship gone array.......I think there's more causes then that.

But then again if we were to gain knowledge on how effective our choices may influence our mental illness, we may be able to benefit from the Choice Theory, in some shape or form.

Thanks all for posting.

[hillbunnyb]

oh goody more stuff to chew on...... which what is who anyway? which is the cart, which is the horse? is it my body mind or spirit? or All of me, shifting balances? some and some, not all or nothing. sift and sort. yesterday looked different .?. I can what? I can try-- here. well, maybe I'll try there...... keep those sea legs on while I find my balance....... where's my Mae West? which way is shore?

[desirae]

LOL....what?!?

[Kalamity]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
you KNOW there's a problem when you read such words as ALL ALWAYS NEVER JUST ...

and imnoho giving too much creedence to the past is part of what makes us miserable...it's learning how to unload the past... being able to break free from it ... but IMO we are much more than what the past made us.

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unlearning what we learned as children - which is something we had no control over and no real understanding of.

It's the fact that many of us learn to think and react as we do that makes me so adamant that we do NOT choose to have these problems.

We are part and parcel of our enviroments: which is the sum total of what we have experienced and continue to experience. If we grew up never locking our doors or windows it would be very difficult for us to then adjust to living somewhere in which you must lock your doors and windows. Being robbed wouldn't be a choice you made but an unfortunate result of your enviroment (your life experiences). This is a bit of a weak example but it's all I could pull off the top of my head that wouldn't be triggerish.

[Maven]

hillbunnyb, LOL! That's basically what I was thinking, too!

I may agree with Glasser and the others mentioned on some things. Most of us agree on some things. I think psychologists and psychiatrists are wrong about some things, and just because something becomes common belief or common practice, does not mean it's right.

I personally believe you can be ill physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually, if there is an actual spirit. I think all these things affect one another.

[CurtFarnsworth]

This is kind of a strange thing to wrap my head around.

Saying mental illness is a choice to me seems unrealistic and doesn't take into account all of what it is to be a human. Yes we have an ability to make choices but we also have things like stress and emotions and everything else that makes us up that effects those choices. No one is able to make choices outside of themselves, thus who we are plays a part in our choices.

Choice plays a role with where we are with are mental health, but so does genetics and environment.

In a lot of ways it is empowering and encouraging to know your choices and behaviors can change things to improve yourself. But saying things like people choose to be metally ill is not accurate and it's hurtful. This really seems like an outdated way of thinking to me.

I'm just going off of what I've read in this topic .

[radio_flyer]

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In a lot of ways it is empowering and encouraging to know your choices and behaviors can change things to improve yourself.

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That is kind of how I was I was seeing it in reference to the Choice Theory... But it looks like there is more to this than what I first thought... I don't believe we "choose" to have any kind of mental illness...In my case, and forgive me for saying this, the very thought of "me" having any kind of "mental illness" totally floors me... I don't like my name listed to any dx... although panic attacks and PTSD I do have.. . Thinks I will move on from the Glasser theory and check out Wubbolding...